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For as a snare shall it come

G

guysmith

Member
Luke 21: 34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

A snare, IMHO, is a trap which catches it's victim totally unaware that it is in the trap in the first place.

That said, I believe that the Tribulation period will come upon us very subtly. I have doubt that it will begin with a bang and that the main characters will be overly obvious. It probably won’t be front page news and the Anti-Christ probably won’t be the president of the United States.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
 
Hi Guysmith and happy easter

I think the Anti_christ will come as a counterfeit of Christ with the false prophet showing great signs and portray Him to deceive even the elect.
The two witnesses the (olive branches) people will portray them as the Anti -Christ and the false prophet,the two witnesses will lead the 144 000 to the old city, the north side of the mount where they will wait and meet the lord with a new song.
When the two witnesses are killed the world will celebrate and worship the real Anti_ christ as our lord in the newly built temple by treaty.
 
Hello Godbless,

You stated: The two witnesses the (olive branches) people will portray them as the Anti -Christ and the false prophet,the two witnesses will lead the 144 000 to the old city, the north side of the mount where they will wait and meet the lord with a new song.

My response: You are correct. I believe that they will be there at the start of the GT. What are your thoughts?

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
 
guysmith said:
Cornelius,

I believe that the Harlot is NAFTA.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
Click to expand...

So you see her as a "group".

How come then, you do not interpret the other figures in the "end time drama" in the same manner?

I am sure you do not think the Beast is an animal, and I am sure you do not think the Dragon is a real dragon, and you see that the Harlot is a group. But what puzzles me is that you then jump from the symbolic to the literal.You make the "two witnesses " two men again. And you make the antichrist into one man also.

Revelation is in the New Testament, so we know it says that the New Jerusalem is actually the Bride of Christ (not a real building) and the mountain of God..Mount Zion..we are told in Hebrews is not a mountain we can touch (because it is in fact a symbol for the Kingdom of God) . But then you jump back to making the mountain real again.

How do you choose when you want something real and when is it symbolic ?
 
Hebrews 12:18 is referring to Mt Sinai, not Mt Sion.

Exo 19:11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
Exo 19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:
Exo 19:13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

Compare to:

Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)
 
The "mountain" is the kingdom of God. Every "beast" or man that touched it died.
Meaning: If you want to go up the mountain of the Kingdom, your "old man" or "beastly nature" must die. You cannot ascend the mountain if you are not "dead to self"

God likens an unsaved man to a beast: Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart, It is because of the sons of men, that God may prove them, and that they may see that they themselves are but as beasts.

The Old Testament is the letter. Everything must first happen in the letter and then translated into the spirit (The New Testament). Like the lamb in the Old was a real lamb, but in the New its Jesus. 1Co 10:11 Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. So that we can learn from the letter. So in the Old , the mountain is real (letter) and in the New it is spiritual. It still cannot be touched by man or beast. Both dies when it touches the mountain.(Our beast within = the old man or "fesh") It's suppose to die."Take up your cross" ....."present your bodies as living sacrifices "
 
That's interesting C. :) I get what you are saying.

I was just pointing out that Hebrews 12 is talking about two different mounts. One that cannot be touched (Mt. Sinai, Heb 12:18).

...and Mt. Sion (Heb 12:22).
 
guysmith said:
Hello Godbless,

You stated: The two witnesses the (olive branches) people will portray them as the Anti -Christ and the false prophet,the two witnesses will lead the 144 000 to the old city, the north side of the mount where they will wait and meet the lord with a new song.

My response: You are correct. I believe that they will be there at the start of the GT. What are your thoughts?

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
Click to expand...

The start of the persecution (GT)
I think the two witnesses are two people not groups nor do I think the harlet is groups but the king of the earth today. The 10 horns being the Europe the north king being Russia and the king of the east China. With the king of the world out of the way the king of the north and east will move in to the middle east for its oil.
 
guysmith said:
Luke 21: 34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

A snare, IMHO, is a trap which catches it's victim totally unaware that it is in the trap in the first place.

That said, I believe that the Tribulation period will come upon us very subtly. I have doubt that it will begin with a bang and that the main characters will be overly obvious. It probably won’t be front page news and the Anti-Christ probably won’t be the president of the United States.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
Click to expand...
Guy,

A snare is presented in the Scripture as something other than legalism. Legalism and justification by works is clumsy and obvious as compared to the subtlety of the snare. The snare will be desired to make a person wise. The snare will despise the ignorance of works of the law.

Ps 69:22
22 May their table before them become a snare;
And when they are in peace, may it become a trap. NAS

Joe
 
Vic C. said:
That's interesting C. :) I get what you are saying.

I was just pointing out that Hebrews 12 is talking about two different mounts. One that cannot be touched (Mt. Sinai, Heb 12:18).

...and Mt. Sion (Heb 12:22).
Click to expand...
:) Yes , a study on the "mountains" is interesting. We see that God speaks of kingdoms as "mountains" and "hills" in the Bible. So once we understand the "code" , more things start making sense.Rev 17:9 Here is the mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth:
Rev 17:9-11 :the seven heads are seven mountains [not hills of Rome but seven kingdoms] on which the woman sitteth: and they are seven kings; the five are fallen [Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece], the one is [Rome, the head that was smitten unto death but revived in Rev.13:3], the other is not yet come [corporate worldwide Revived Roman Empire the Dragon of Rev12]; when he cometh, he must continue a little while [3 1/2 years]. And the beast that was and is not is himself also an eighth [beast of Rev 13] and is of the seven."

The eighth kingdom is made up of all of the seven world empires because the woman sitteth (present tense) on all seven. These kingdoms have lost their individual dominion, but their lives were prolonged (Dan 7:12), and they are still with us exercising dominion corporately in the end time beast. The coming of Christ will destroy all these kingdoms together (Dan 2:35,44).
 
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that a stone was cut out of the mountain (The destruction of all world empires will happen from the Kingdom of God ) without hands,(its a work of God not man ) and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Read Dan 2:35-44 to see the picture in Revelation of the seven hills repeated in different prophetic language.
 
Hello C,

You stated: How do you choose when you want something real and when is it symbolic ?

My response: I guess it’s a gift ;) All kidding aside, my conclusions are based on deductions and allowing the Bible to interpret itself. For example:

1. The Beast and the false prophet. I feel that they will be real individuals because in the end they are thrown into the lake of fire which is meant for all who are not written in the book of life. Revelation 20:10

2. The two witnesses. IMHO these two are real individuals because the are killed and their bodies lay in the streets of Jerusalem and then they take part in the resurrections. Revelation 14.

You stated: Revelation is in the New Testament, so we know it says that the New Jerusalem is actually the Bride of Christ (not a real building)

My response: I do see the New Jerusalem, the Bride, as a real building. This is one of those cases where the Bible has to interpret itself. Notice that John clarifies that the New Jerusalem is the tabernacle of God.

Rev 21:2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

The tabernacle of God is a real building. Paul clarifies that the tabernacle in the wilderness was a scale model of the tabernacle in heaven.

Hebrews 8:5
They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

So, when Christ returns, He doesn’t come for the bride, but rather, He comes with the bride.

You stated: and the mountain of God..Mount Zion..we are told in Hebrews is not a mountain we can touch (because it is in fact a symbol for the Kingdom of God) . But then you jump back to making the mountain real again.

My response: I believe that Paul was talking about two different mountains. Notice that the mountain that can’t be touch is a description of Mount Siani including a description by Moses.

Hebrews 12: 19And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

Then Paul shifts over to Mount Zion….

Hebrews 12: 22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

… which will be the center from which Christ will rule the earth during the millennium. Notice, the “city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,†“the bride†(a real building encompassing a real mountain) which will come down to earth as described in Revelation 21.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
 
Cornelius said:
So Jesus is marrying stone and bricks?
Click to expand...
I dont see any bricks in these verses.


9One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia[a]in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits thick,[c] by man's measurement, which the angel was using. 18The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.[d] 21The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass.

22I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
 
C,

You stated: So Jesus is marrying stone and bricks?

My response: If I am not mistaken, the wedding of Christ is a parable?

There is a common misconception that weddings in the past where performed like wedding today. This misconception is carried over in the parable of the ten virgins. Biblegateway provides a better understanding concerning this parable. The following is a quote:

Wise disciples remain vigilant for Jesus' return. In this parable the bridesmaids, rather than the bride herself, constitute the primary characters. Wedding processions from the bride's to the groom's home, accompanied by singing and dancing, normally happened at night and hence required light. The lamps in ancient weddings were not the small, hand-held lamps used under normal circumstances, but torches (as in Plut. Roman Questions 2, Mor. 263F; Ach. Tat. 2.11.1), perhaps sticks wrapped with oiled rags, as in traditional Palestinian Arab weddings (Jeremias 1972:174-75). Women torchbearers probably led the bride to the bridegroom's home, joined by the groom and his male friends (Jeremias 1972:173). Presumably the bridesmaids are thus waiting outside the bride's home for his coming, to escort her to his home (Argyle 1963:189).

The whole article can be viewed at: http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/c ... =i.47.25.1

I had done a independent study of weddings from those days. Essentially the father of the groom would make a contract with the father of the bride well in advance of the wedding day. When the wedding day would come, the bridegroom, accompanied with his male friends, would go to the home of the bride to collect her. In releasing the bride to the groom , the father would be fulfilling his part of the contract (the father giving away the bride). The couple would be technically married at that time. While in route back to the grooms parents home for the wedding festivities, the bridal party would be joined by the brides girlfriends who would also be virgins.

So, fulfilling the parable, Christ ascended into heaven to get the bride, the tabernacle of God.

John 14: 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So, in the parable, Christ is not coming for the virgins to be His bride, the virgins are just part of the wedding procession. He has already received the bride and is in route to the earth to collect those individuals whom the parable calls the five wise virgins. (Hint, hint: Rev 14: 3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. )

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith
 
guysmith said:
C,

You stated: So Jesus is marrying stone and bricks?

My response: If I am not mistaken, the wedding of Christ is a parable?
Click to expand...

But your first response is that it is NOT a parable, it is a real building.

"guysmith said"
My response: I do see the New Jerusalem, the Bride, as a real building.
Click to expand...
 
2 Cor 10:3-5
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh
4(for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but mighty before God to the casting down of strongholds),
5 casting down imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ; ASV

This testimony is concerning the snare that is coming upon the face of the whole world.

The imaginations of man are vain. In vain we worship God with our traditions of men. God's eternal purpose for us has not entered into our heart.

The Spirit quickens us concerning that which passes knowledge and understanding. We do not know what we shall be. Our vile bodies bear the marks of the Lord Jesus. The wisdom of the Greeks call this foolishness. The religious duty of the Jews stumble at man's incapacity to perform.

Joe
 
Cornelius'
Yes , a study on the "mountains" is interesting. We see that God speaks of kingdoms as "mountains" and "hills" in the Bible. So once we understand the "code" , more things start making sense.Rev 17:9 Here is the mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth:
Rev 17:9-11 :the seven heads are seven mountains [not hills of Rome but seven kingdoms]
Click to expand...
Eventhough Revelation 17:18 states that the woman is the great city that ruleth over the world, which according to context is Rome'? Eventhough the 11horned beast in Daniel is identified as Rome, the last of the four/five kingdoms? Is there any other beasts/kingdoms mentioned in the bible after Rome? No. Rome is the last kingdom that stomps and breaksdown the world with it's iron teeth.

Cornelius'
on which the woman sitteth: and they are seven kings; the five are fallen [Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece], the one is [Rome, the head that was smitten unto death but revived in Rev.13:3],
Click to expand...
Seven kings is seven kings. The horns/kings of the Persians were named and numbered aswell as the Grecians. There are only 5 beasts/fallen angels mentioned, the beast from the bottomless pit that recieved the deadly wound and the 4 angels that were released from the euphrates river.

The Deadly Wound
Jer 51:8 Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed.
Jer 51:9 We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up [even] to the skies.
er 51:10 The LORD hath brought forth our righteousness: come, and let us declare in Zion the work of the LORD our God.
Click to expand...
The reason Babylon is mentioned in Revelation is because the 8th king/emperor was Nebuchadnezzar (the head of gold, the lion mouth with the man's heart made to stand on his feet, who recieved the deadly wound) the beast from the bottomless pit, also known as Mercury/Apollo/ Abaddon.

Cornelius'
the other is not yet come [corporate worldwide Revived Roman Empire the Dragon of Rev12]; when he cometh, he must continue a little while [3 1/2 years]. And the beast that was and is not is himself also an eighth [beast of Rev 13] and is of the seven."
Click to expand...
Ever heard of the Roman "year of four emperors"? Flavius was the 4th of the four.


Cornelius'
The eighth kingdom is made up of all of the seven world empires because the woman sitteth (present tense) on all seven. These kingdoms have lost their individual dominion, but their lives were prolonged (Dan 7:12), and they are still with us exercising dominion corporately in the end time beast. The coming of Christ will destroy all these kingdoms together (Dan 2:35,44).
Click to expand...
The anitchrist has already been. The only thing that remains is his image, his name, his mark, and the number of his name. Research the taking of his name, Flavius. Persons like Flavius Josephus, Constantine and his mother, etc. Research Flavians.
As for his image, you have to study pagan mythology to see how all images of a mother and son savior were represented as Isis/Horus, Cybele/Attis, etc., which are really the worshipped celestial bodies of Venus (goddess Diana) and Mercury (Apollo.) So much to say with so little time!



Cornelius'
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that a stone was cut out of the mountain (The destruction of all world empires will happen from the Kingdom of God ) without hands,(its a work of God not man ) and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Read Dan 2:35-44 to see the picture in Revelation of the seven hills repeated in different prophetic language.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that a stone was cut out of the mountain (The destruction of all world empires will happen from the Kingdom of God ) without hands,(its a work of God not man ) and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Read Dan 2:35-44 to see the picture in Revelation of the seven hills repeated in different prophetic language.
Click to expand...
It's interesting to note that Rome was built on 7 of 10 hills by 7kings before 1ad. It's also interesting to note that of these 10 hills, 3 were made into 1 to house the popes and later the rulers of Rome.
The beasts/fallen angels were 5 in number. The beast with the deadly wound and the 4 angels that were bound in Euphrates.
When Egypt or Babylon is mentioned, it is referring to the beast's kingdom which was all the kingdoms of earth because they all worshipped the hosts of heaven, paganism, which is sun/satan worship. His images have penetrated christianity.
 
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