? for christians, your "sinless state" in heaven?

[BobRyan]

Well, . . . my point is, . . . if God meant for man to be sinless, . . . and the angels, for that matter, then what happened that there was such a collosal failure of the plan?

Free will - - not robots.

1/3 of the angel host chose to fall -- 2/3's remained loyal.

Are you asking "why didn't he make robots"??

How will this not be a potential possibility in heaven?

It will - however that get's back to "data and compelling evidence" used to "motivate" in a free will system.

6000 years and now 6 billion people - "that's a lot of data".

How would anyone know if there wouldn't be another angel that chooses to "set him/herself above God", thus bringing in yet another age of "sin"?

God says "sin will not rise again" -- and so far He has been right on the money when it comes to seeing the future.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Why does God care about or need worship from "redeemed beings"? :-?

God is the source of life and energy - when we return praise to God we simply "complete the circuit" causing us to grow closer to the "infinite". As turns out finite beings have an infinite gap between themselves and the infinite God - so infinite room for growth - for learning - for experiencing more of life. i.e. it is "for our benefit" our growth.

Your question addresses the issue of "yes but why should we advance why not just stay stuck where we are"

Question for you - are you actually willing to discuss these questions and look at the answers -- or have you come with a prior bias of the form "no good answers - I don't care what you find to be true - the truth for me is Christianity stinks"?.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Paidion]

I'm just trying to understand how our nature will be different from "Adam and Eve's nature". . . . . Why wouldn't God create them in the state that those who are heaven bound are supposed to be?

It would seem that that state must be reached by gradual growth. Otherwise it would be the creation of creatures without free will. Creatures with free will may disobey and rebel.

But when people begin to freely choose to submit to God, and become conformed to the image of Christ, they move toward that perfected state which God intends. The finishing touches will be put upon His children at their resurrection at the return of Christ, and God's intentions for their development will be completed. (Rom 8). At that stage their characters will have become such that they will no longer desire to rebel against God. Just as God's character is such that He will do no wrong to anyone, so the completed sons of God will do no wrong. Their characters will be such that the thought of doing so would be abhorrent to them. Their characters will have developed from constant communication with God, responding to God in such a way that there is a growth to that perfected character. They will have been conformed to the image of Christ --- Christ who always chose to do His Father's will. Could Christ have sinned? In the sense that He had the ability to do so --- yes. But in the sense that HE had the will to do so --- no.

 

[Orion]

God is the source of life and energy - when we return praise to God we simply "complete the circuit" causing us to grow closer to the "infinite". As turns out finite beings have an infinite gap between themselves and the infinite God - so infinite room for growth - for learning - for experiencing more of life. i.e. it is "for our benefit" our growth.

Hmmmmm. . . . that almost sounds "New Age-sh" to me.

Your question addresses the issue of "yes but why should we advance why not just stay stuck where we are"

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that my questions in anyway suggest that I want to "stay stuck" anywhere. As I see it, being bound to strict doctrine is akin to being stuck and not advancing, but that's just me.

Question for you - are you actually willing to discuss these questions and look at the answers -- or have you come with a prior bias of the form "no good answers - I don't care what you find to be true - the truth for me is Christianity stinks"?.

I really want to know how people will remain sin free while retaining free will and still being the person they were on earth. I don't see how it will be possible. If you take away a person's desire for advancement, for example (some people have such a desire), I don't see how they will refrain . . . for ALL eternity. . . to attempt to find ways to exhault themselves. That's just one example out of who knows how many, . . . . . . .from who knows how many PEOPLE, . . . . . for eons.....

God says "sin will not rise again" -- and so far He has been right on the money when it comes to seeing the future.

As I've pointed out, I'm not a "bible literalist", so when I see something like this, . . . I can easily compartmentalize that quote within the "wishful thinking of a man", . . . similar to the "saints crying out for vengence against those who took their life, while in the presence of God (which is supposed to be MUCH more desireable than some earthly existance)".

 

[Orion]

It would seem that that state must be reached by gradual growth. Otherwise it would be the creation of creatures without free will. Creatures with free will may disobey and rebel.

But when people begin to freely choose to submit to God, and become conformed to the image of Christ, they move toward that perfected state which God intends. The finishing touches will be put upon His children at their resurrection at the return of Christ, and God's intentions for their development will be completed. (Rom 8). At that stage their characters will have become such that they will no longer desire to rebel against God. Just as God's character is such that He will do no wrong to anyone, so the completed sons of God will do no wrong. Their characters will be such that the thought of doing so would be abhorrent to them. Their characters will have developed from constant communication with God, responding to God in such a way that there is a growth to that perfected character. They will have been conformed to the image of Christ --- Christ who always chose to do His Father's will.

You see, this is my problem (the part I've bolded). Perhaps a few would fall in line WITHOUT some sort of character altering event. . . . .but then, are they no longer who they were on earth? I don't think so. Without that, the person is no longer. . . .the same person. They are transformed into a being that may not be much different than a "robot", . . . . no individuality in any real sense, just a hord of servants doing their master's bidding. . . . . . .

And what would that bidding be, . . . in Heaven? :-?

Could Christ have sinned? In the sense that He had the ability to do so --- yes. But in the sense that HE had the will to do so --- no.

No, . . . if Jesus was God at all, . . . he could not have sinned, because God cannot be tempted. Even "ability".

 

[Rick W]

just a hord of servants doing their master's bidding. . . . . . .

Indeed.
Without Christ we're just a hoard of servants doing our master's bidding, the master of sin.
And what would that bidding be, . . . in Hell?

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
John 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
John 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
John 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
John 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[Orion]

What do I care about sin? I don't go looking for it, or go out in search of it? And I'm certainly not obeying sin, though I have all kinds of opportunities to do so!

Once again, I feel as though I've been given a post that doesn't really answer my questions. I'm well aware of the bible section that you posted. But if I had to address it, . . . no one REALLY hears God, but must take it on FAITH that it occured. My "faith-er" doesn't operate that way. Jesus may have been right about me not being of God, due to my lack of hearing God, but that isn't my issue. I wasn't created with the correct "faith organ".

What I am asking about the "bidding of God in Heaven", . . . what would that actually be? How will people have their individuality and core essence of what it means to be who they really are? How will this "change to the mind of Christ" drastically alter who we are so that sin will no longer be an issue, and in doing so, . . . in what way will we be the person we are today? I don't see how this can happen, . . . again, possible with a few, . . . but for countless numbers, for all eternity, remaining outside sin while still being the same person may be outside of our ability, . . .again unless some drastic change occurs, which in turn, we will really not be who we are anymore.

Our failings make us who we are. They define us as human beings. Take that away and you no longer have the essence of what makes us who we were made to be. And at that point, all this earthly living, . . . choosing God even though there is the possibility of rejection, will be meaningless, . . . . .because in Heaven, we will no longer have that possibility, so how would this be any different than just creating beings with a sole purpose but only to worship one being without the possiblity of rejection? Having a sincere love means that the possibility of that love may be gone tomorrow!

 

[Alabaster]

Hmmmmm. . . . that almost sounds "New Age-sh" to me.

I can't let this comment pass...

How can that be? New Agers don't praise God. They admire the Creation--the universe alone!

 

[Rick W]

Php 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Php 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

 

[Alabaster]

Our failings make us who we are. They define us as human beings. Take that away and you no longer have the essence of what makes us who we were made to be. And at that point, all this earthly living, . . . choosing God even though there is the possibility of rejection, will be meaningless, . . . . .because in Heaven, we will no longer have that possibility, so how would this be any different than just creating beings with a sole purpose but only to worship one being without the possiblity of rejection? Having a sincere love means that the possibility of that love may be gone tomorrow!

Seems to me it is important for you to retain personhood. Well, we will, but as for me, I don't want to remain the person I am--I am constantly fighting against sinning, and Satan wars against me. with Satan out of the picture and my salvation finally grasped in all its fullness, standing before Jesus Christ the Son and God the Father, I surely hope I am NOT the same fallible person I am now! Instead my hope is in Christ that I will finally attain what I am moving toward in the first place---Christ-likeness! In heaven, I will still be me, but I will be perfected as me!

We will become as we are created to be, without the disfigurement of sin!

 

[Paidion]

You see, this is my problem (the part I've bolded). Perhaps a few would fall in line WITHOUT some sort of character altering event. . . . .but then, are they no longer who they were on earth? I don't think so. Without that, the person is no longer. . . .the same person. They are transformed into a being that may not be much different than a "robot", . . . . no individuality in any real sense, just a hord of servants doing their master's bidding. . . . . . .

Thank you, Orion, for your thoughtful reply. The way I see it is that each true disciple of Christ (one who has turned from the self-life and submitted himself to Christ as Lord) is experiencing those "character-altering events" right here in this life. So there is a progress toward that final completion. So because of his choices, his learning from these choices, and his continuing relationship with his Master, he is indeed gradually transformed. In one sense, one could say he is a "different person", but yet he has the same identity. So rather than being robot-like, such a person actually has more freedom, even while here on earth, than a non-disciple who is bound by sin. God's plan for the disciple is that he be conformed to the image of Christ, and God is continuously working within the disciple to that end. (Rom 8:28-30)

Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. ESV

And what would that bidding be, . . . in Heaven?

As a believer in the ultimate reconciliation of all rational beings to God, I would say that bidding would be to bring the message of the "everlasting gospel" (or more accurately "gospel which goes from age to age), to those who will be in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire.

No, . . . if Jesus was God at all, . . . he could not have sinned, because God cannot be tempted. Even "ability".

Jesus was not the God, that is the Father. Jesus Himself prayed:

John 17:3 And this is permanent life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

So Jesus called his Father "the only true God" and referred to Himself as other than "the only true God". Does this mean that Jesus was not "God at all"? There is another way in which "God" is used in the New Testament. It can refer God's essence. The Father begat or generated his Son (not created) at the beginning of time. Dogs beget dogs and the offspring are canine; man begets man and the offspring are human; God begets God and the offspring is divine. Indeed, all known Greek manuscripts prior to the year 300 A.D. assert in John 1:18 that THE ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD who is at THE GOD's side has made Him known. So here Jesus is clearly called "the only begotten God". The Father was not begotten.

When Jesus was born as a human being, He became a complete human being. He got hungry and thirsty just like any other human being. He did not perform miracles by his own power; it was his Father who performed miracles THROUGH Him. He divested Himself of all of His divine attributes (the divine self-emptying):

Have this mind among yourselves, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. Philippians 2:5-7

So Jesus divested Himself of all his divine attributes, and yet retained his identity. He was the same divine Individual that He was prior to his becoming a human being.

So, as I see it, being fully a human being, Jesus did have the power or ability to sin. But He always chose not to do so. He was tempted in all ways such as we are, yet without sin. (Hebrews 4:15)

 

[Alabaster]

As a believer in the ultimate reconciliation of all rational beings to God, I would say that bidding would be to bring the message of the "everlasting gospel" (or more accurately "gospel which goes from age to age), to those who will be in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire.

Those in Gehenna are there forever and are gone forever, wiithout hope. The Gospel message will have done its work already. ther is nothing in God's word that gives any hope for them. We must be careful that we don't create scenarios out of human wishful thinking rather than God't Word that tells us that the punished are in oblivion.

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


There is no release from the second death.

 

[Orion]

Paidion. . . . . . I like discussing with you. I appreciate your spirit and delivery.

I also have desire to stay away from those things which are harmful to me, as a person, . . . of which, the church may have labeled as "sin". I have a desire to do well to others. Compassion where it is needed, patience where "jumping the gun" could be detrimental. I can see how these qualities would transfer well into the person in Heaven. I just know many christians who may be completely sincere in their faith, but who cause turmoil in many aspects of life, and do so knowing the cost. I know that it is best for them to shead such things from their life, and if that is the case, that would be a good thing. But opportunists exist in the religion of Christianity, and it is just their nature. I hope that these type of people DO work on this while on earth, as suggested in your Philippians 1:6 verse.

 

[Rick W]

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Moses and Elias as individuals with separate identities.

Maybe being individual in your mind means doing what you want when you want without any other authority other than yourself?

 

[Paidion]

Alabaster, I would love, scripturally, to discuss this topic with you, but the rules of the forum forbid it. I made passing reference to my belief in my belief in the reconciliation of all to God, and I am able to show it scripturally, but unfortunately it cannot be discussed.

 

[BobRyan]

Question for you - are you actually willing to discuss these questions and look at the answers -- or have you come with a prior bias of the form "no good answers - I don't care what you find to be true - the truth for me is Christianity stinks"?.

I really want to know how people will remain sin free while retaining free will and still being the person they were on earth. I don't see how it will be possible.

It's that "compelling data thing" again.

If you take away a person's desire for advancement, for example (some people have such a desire), I don't see how they will refrain . . . for ALL eternity. . . to attempt to find ways to exhault themselves.

exaulting self is sin. The sinful nature desires "me me me all the time me" -- that is the bad thing that is taken away. God's kingdom is one of self-sacrifice "love others as you love yourself" Lev 19:18 or as Phil 2 "considering others above you self".

It's the same thing parents try to teach their children.

Nothing new there.

God says "sin will not rise again" -- and so far He has been right on the money when it comes to seeing the future.

As I've pointed out, I'm not a "bible literalist"

That's not the question - are you a "Bibel realist"? Do you take into account all the "inconvenient details" that may oppose a bias you bring to the text when reading the text?

Do you apply the objective methods of exegesis to get the true meaning and "let the chips fall where they may" or do you come to the text with the eisegetical bent "if I want the text to say something different then it does"?? As the exegetes remind us "A text without a context is just a pretext".

In which case - it ceases to have any chance of being anything except the Word of "you".

Which is why ALL bible scholars in all Christian denominations have signed on to the objective practices of exegesis. Better to let the text say what it says -- even if "it displeases me" than to bend it "each time the need arises".

, so when I see something like this, . . . I can easily compartmentalize that quote within the "wishful thinking of a man",

I see - kinda "as the need arises"?

Try it "the other way" for a while.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Moses and Elias as individuals with separate identities.

Good point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As a believer in the ultimate reconciliation of all rational beings to God, I would say that bidding would be to bring the message of the "everlasting gospel" (or more accurately "gospel which goes from age to age), to those who will be in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire.

If there is a Bible text that says "The Gospel will be preached to those in Rev 20 Lake of Fire" then go ahead and exegete the context and details of the text. My guess is that merely quoting and accurately stating the text of scripture does not violate the TOS.

As long as you stick with exegesis I think you are fine.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Alabaster]

Alabaster, I would love, scripturally, to discuss this topic with you, but the rules of the forum forbid it. I made passing reference to my belief in my belief in the reconciliation of all to God, and I am able to show it scripturally, but unfortunately it cannot be discussed.

I figured correctly. You are right that we can go no further.

 

[Vic C.]

I totally respect you all for not pursuing a topic that has become a hotbed at these forums in the past but...

I don't want anyone to think we've been holding out and say, "you didn't tell me this", so:

Rules and Guidelines to this forum: (Debate Forum)

If you wish to challenge a member to a One On One debate. You should ask that person and if that person agrees; the two of you may debate it one on one here. This is open to ALL topics including UR (Universal Reconcilation). If you want to start a debate with someone one on one, you may also post a topic here, if a person decides to take the challenge. IT WILL ONLY BE THE TWO OF YOU.

Now I can say, "Yes I did!". :P