For those "not a sheep" . . . what next?

[Drew]

I know what the bible says about it. I was wanting to know how YOU felt about god sending people to eternal punishment without any choice of their own. This thread is to those who openly state that there are those who god provides NO salvation to. This isn't "justice", but merely creating souls for the purpose of them burning in hell so that a FEW can feel grateful for not being given the same eternal pain.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

So, if those who escape this destruction [placed purposefully on the damned, and against their will] are giving praise to god for their salvation, this will please god. The suffering of the damned results in pleasure for god. Put simply, . . . god created "vessels of destruction" in order to receive praise from "the sheep".

I politely suggest that you may not really know what the Bible says about this. This text you cite from Romans 9 is, I suggest, not any kind of statement about people in general being pre-destined to hell.

It is instead a statement about God and his treatment of the nation of Israel. I can explain further if you like.

 

[Deavonreye]

I politely suggest that you may not really know what the Bible says about this. This text you cite from Romans 9 is, I suggest, not any kind of statement about people in general being pre-destined to hell.

It is instead a statement about God and his treatment of the nation of Israel. I can explain further if you like.

Drew, I'm sure you are right in what you believe. However, it [this verse, in another thread] was used in the way I'm focusing on here. Those who believe that god purposefully created people to be saved, and others to be damned, neither group having a say in it.

Thanks, though!

 

[Oats]

I had asked savedbygrace57 a question in another thread, but it got buried under other stuff, so I would like to pose those questions here.

The thread in question was about the "myth that Jesus died for everyone".

If I, as a person not called to be "a sheep", am to ask some about my fate, I would be one "who was made for destruction". I had no say in the matter, . . . my fate was decided from the beginning.

Here is my question:

Do you believe that I, as a person not called to be "a sheep", deserve to be sent to eternal misery in hell? Key words are "eternal" and "misery". Please don't post scripture or dogma, answer this from your own thoughts/feelings, . . .and think about what "eternal" and "misery" means. Also, remember that everyone "sins", even those who claim that they have "walked away from their sin". They still "sin". . . . the only difference is that someone was able to believe in a concept [found in the bible] that has no real evidence, . . . someone else wasn't able to honestly state that belief.

Thank you for your input.

Yes, God creates all of us for his purpose. Iis something as humans we can't understand- although we should never blame God.

 

[Deavonreye]

Yes, God creates all of us for his purpose. Its something as humans we can't understand- although we should never blame God.

If god created an unjust system, then the blame lies completely at god's door. This isn't "something that can't be understood". It is clear, as I have stated above.

 

[savedbygrace57]

deavon:

By your admission, you believe that I deserve to be [and WILL be] sent to everlasting punishment.

Now please show us where I admitted that you deserve and will be punished everlastingly. If you cannot produce that exact quote of mine, please admit that you have maliciously and calculatedly misrepresented me.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Because a person who has no choice, yet is punished FOR what he had no choice in, is punished unjustly. It would be the same as punishing people who were born with blue eyes.

God created the vessels of wrath to wilfully sin, They choose to sin.

 

[Deavonreye]

deavon:



Now please show us where I admitted that you deserve and will be punished everlastingly. If you cannot produce that exact quote of mine, please admit that you have maliciously and calculatedly misrepresented me.

I will not admit to your interpretation. By your definition, what happens to one who "perishes"?

 

[Deavonreye]

God created the vessels of wrath to wilfully sin, They choose to sin.

You can't have someone "choose" a path if a supernaturally powerful entity creates them to "choose" it. That's nearly paradoxical.

 

[Bubba]

If god created an unjust system, then the blame lies completely at god's door. This isn't "something that can't be understood". It is clear, as I have stated above.

There is another thought that is gaining ground with better translations of Scripture, which is that God in the long run will reconcile all people. I was a Calvinist for years and struggled for those years with this whole problem of evil, in respect to God ordaining the lost (reprobate) to Hell for eternity. Especially since I also believe the Supralapsarian to be correct (God ordained the Fall). I still believe that God is sovereign in all events, but I am now a Universalist, and believe that God really does love all.
Blessings, Bubba
Col. 1:20

 

[lamplady]

If I, as a person not called to be "a sheep", am to ask some about my fate, I would be one "who was made for destruction". I had no say in the matter, . . . my fate was decided from the beginning.

Here is my question:

Do you believe that I, as a person not called to be "a sheep", deserve to be sent to eternal misery in hell? Key words are "eternal" and "misery". Please don't post scripture or dogma, answer this from your own thoughts/feelings, . . .and think about what "eternal" and "misery" means. Also, remember that everyone "sins", even those who claim that they have "walked away from their sin". They still "sin". . . . the only difference is that someone was able to believe in a concept [found in the bible] that has no real evidence, . . . someone else wasn't able to honestly state that belief.

Thank you for your input.

The thing is it's not so much YOU cannot enter heaven but SIN can't. Those who CHOOSE to follow Christ and have already confessed their sins only have CHANCE, not a GUARANTEE they'd enter heaven as it's by his GRACE.

Yet if we as Christians acknowledge Christ we ARE more GUARANTEED a place in heaven rather then unrepentant sinners because we LOVE God and BELIEVE in JESUS and we'd be CHANGED to be like angels.

So when you ask if you deserve to be in hell in eternal misery the answer is yes if you don't repent and follow Jesus.

The wages of sin is death.

Out of interest why are you concerned for something you profess to have relapsed from? If there's any regret - come back to God. He's always there.

 

[Deavonreye]

There is another thought that is gaining ground with better translations of Scripture, which is that God in the long run will reconcile all people. I was a Calvinist for years and struggled for those years with this whole problem of evil, in respect to God ordaining the lost (reprobate) to Hell for eternity. Especially since I also believe the Supralapsarian to be correct (God ordained the Fall). I still believe that God is sovereign in all events, but I am now a Universalist, and believe that God really does love all.
Blessings, Bubba
Col. 1:20

Thank you, Bubba. I would tend to believe similarly.

 

[Deavonreye]

So when you ask if you deserve to be in hell in eternal misery the answer is yes if you don't repent and follow Jesus.

Since you answered 'yes', would you please give your doctrine of what happens to a person in hell?

 

[lamplady]

Since you answered 'yes', would you please give your doctrine of what happens to a person in hell?

weeping and gnashing of teeth ... a place void of God equals no love - a person there must only feel remorseful, bitter, hate, anger, sorrowful etc ...

 

[Deavonreye]

weeping and gnashing of teeth ... a place void of God equals no love - a person there must only feel remorseful, bitter, hate, anger, sorrowful etc ...

If it were god's will for you to watch me weeping and gnashing my teeth, would you enjoy heaven? Remember, in this scenario, I had no choice in the matter but to be born in a state that I could never be saved.

If god gave you the job [at that time] of creating the conditions that would cause my hellish condition, would you do it gladly?

 

[stovebolts]

While I agree with Lamplady, It's best to keep in mind this passage.

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

God doesn't put people in hell, but rather, people store up wrath for themselves. Jesus didn't come to condemn us because we condemn ourselves. No, Jesus came that we would have life abundantly... all aspects and measures of it. But just as we can choose the way of Christ, we can also choose the way of wrath.

 

[Deavonreye]

While I agree with Lamplady, It's best to keep in mind this passage.

Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

God doesn't put people in hell, but rather, people store up wrath for themselves. Jesus didn't come to condemn us because we condemn ourselves. No, Jesus came that we would have life abundantly... all aspects and measures of it. But just as we can choose the way of Christ, we can also choose the way of wrath.

I have no interest in wrath. I seek what is true.

Having said that, this thread is mostly for those with the theology that "there are those who cannot be saved because god made them for destruction".

 

[lamplady]

If it were god's will for you to watch me weeping and gnashing my teeth, would you enjoy heaven? Remember, in this scenario, I had no choice in the matter but to be born in a state that I could never be saved.

If god gave you the job [at that time] of creating the conditions that would cause my hellish condition, would you do it gladly?

k I confess I didn't read the entire thread so if you are referring to something that was said when you stated, 'I have no choice in the matter but to be born in a state that I could never be saved', I don't know what you mean - please forgive.


You didn't want us quoting scriptures but I must mention the bible says: 'they ...', meaning the people in hell, '... will be remembered no more'. So I couldn't enjoy heaven any less or any more.

What you have to understand is God is JUST God he would not throw anyone into hell if they didn't deserve it. God is the judge - not us.

 

[Deavonreye]

k I confess I didn't read the entire thread so if you are referring to something that was said when you stated, 'I have no choice in the matter but to be born in a state that I could never be saved', I don't know what you mean - please forgive.


You didn't want us quoting scriptures but I must mention the bible says: 'they ...', meaning the people in hell, '... will be remembered no more'. So I couldn't enjoy heaven any less or any more.

What you have to understand is God is JUST God he would not throw anyone into hell if they didn't deserve it. God is the judge - not us.

This thread is geared towards those who state that "god created those specifically for hell with no way of salvation".

As for what you said, I personally don't believe that anyone "deserves to be punished eterally for finite earthly 'crimes'". That isn't justice, regardless of whether or not the person calling the shots has the power to do just that.

 

[stovebolts]

I have no interest in wrath. I seek what is true.

Having said that, this thread is mostly for those with the theology that "there are those who cannot be saved because god made them for destruction".

With all due respect, we simply can't have one sided arguments... and while you have no interest in wrath, you sure talk much about it... so while we're talking about wrath, scripture is clear that we bring wrath upon ourselves. This is a true statement and can be seen by the many who have chosen prison by romanticizing and living out a particular lifestyle. They've gotten what they've sought after.

Besides, you're issue is more than what you've stated in you're opening OP. Here, let me post what you've posted in this thread yourself, and as such, I was only responding.

I completely reject the doctrine of people "choosing hell". No one "chooses" to go to everlasting punishment. It is forced upon them because of it being the only other choice. Someone who is unable to be dishonest about what they feel about the god of the bible, in other words, finding no evidence for believing THIS religion to somehow be THE only religion amongst thousands of others, . . . only having the words of other people telling you that THEY are right. Not being able to believe other PEOPLE is not the same as "choosing hell over Jesus". If I was able to experience the person of Jesus, that would go a long way to [and here's the key] making a decision of this magnatude. "Faith" is an unethical way for people's future to be determined by.

I disagree that wrath is forced upon anyone and your argument tells me that you've ran into some not so friendly Christians that didn't have the understanding or patience to share the gospel with you.

Simply put my friend, being a Christian entails a way of life and a way of living your life. It's not so much about where we are going when we die, though we do have the assurance of a wonderful place, but it's as much about bringing God's glory to earth, and to live the way we were intended to live.

This doesn't mean that as Christians that we don't make mistakes, or that we don't sin, or that we always live the way of Jesus, but it simply means that when we slip or fall, we have somebody there to help us up, and we always have somebody to turn to just to name a few.

Like yourself, I disagree with those that make the argument, "Accept Jesus or burn in hell". That's based on fear and control, not love and acceptance. Furthermore, it's not the way Jesus preached the good news, nor was it the way Paul preached the good news because simply put, "Accept Jesus or burn in Hell" isn't good news...

 

[stovebolts]

So God gets no pleasure out of His own Justice ? Why not ? Is He ashamed of it ?

He got pleasure out of the Justice He excuted on His Son Isa 53:10

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Why would God not be pleased to put rebels to grief eternally ? Are they more to Him than His Beloved Son ?

SBG, but you have to ask why it pleased him. Did it please Him to watch him suffer, or did it please him because he knew what the results would be?

53:11 Having suffered, he will reflect on his work,
he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done.
“My servant will acquit many,
for he carried their sins.


You see, it can please us to go through hardships when the reward on the other side is so great.


And as Paul Harvey once said, "The rest of the story"...
When you place that scripture in the context of rebels placed eternally in hell... scripture becomes abolished and warped.

53:12 So I will assign him a portion with the multitudes,
he will divide the spoils of victory with the powerful,
because he willingly submitted to death
and was numbered with the rebels,
when he lifted up the sin of many
and intervened on behalf of the rebels.”