L
lamplady
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'the person calling the shots', who, 'has the power to do just that', (punish eternally), is the one you should argue with ...
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For those "not a sheep" . . . what next?
- Thread starter Deavonreye
- Start date
'the person calling the shots', who, 'has the power to do just that', (punish eternally), is the one you should argue with ...
Stevebolts,
Deavonreye makes a good argument in respect to the problem of evil ends with God, who has total power to change any of His children's heart. I know that if I had the power to change the final outcome of any of my six children, I would do it to keep them from suffering for eternity and I am finite and not perfect in the area of loving others, God can do better. He tells us to even love our enemies, would we think He would do less? There are many more philosophical arguments that could and have been brought up, but the two that stand out for me is:
1. Man only lives small amount of years in this physical realm, yet we are to believe that God is going to punish him for eternity for his transgressions; this is not justice.
2. A person like Ted Bundy can rape and kill a young girl, who does not know Jesus as her Saviour, she spends eternity in torment, while Ted has a death row conversion and lives happily for eternity.
My understanding of a just and loving God would not have this vengeful penal character that does not bring good out of bad.
Grace, Bubba
It is described in the Word as the worm that never dies and eternal torment where there will be weeping and knashing of teeth. Whjat you need to understand is that I deserve it as much as you do but God has sent His Son to suffer in my place. If you can see that you need the mercy of God because you too deserve that just punishment and see in Christ all that God requires of you then He did it for you as well. If you cannot and will not see your need of Christ you are without hope and without God in the world. Contrary to what modern "christian" religion tells you as long as you remain a rebel and an unbeliever you cannot presume that the love of God abides on you but rather the wrath of God abides on you. God's terms of peace with you is not why don't we get together and work this thing out. God's terms of peace with you is surrender or die. He always comes as a conquer before He comes as a comforter. You will bow to God one way or another.
stovebolts
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- Nov 4, 2004
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Bubba,
With all due respect, let me see if I can address the arguments.
2. A person like Ted Bundy can rape and kill a young girl, who does not know Jesus as her Saviour, she spends eternity in torment, while Ted has a death row conversion and lives happily for eternity.
First off, I believe in the age of accountability, so since this girl is young, I would automatically consider her with God, and not in a place of torment. On the other side of the argument, I wuold also have to ask why she didn't know Jesus as her savior. I believe scripture states that there will be many who do not know of Jesus, that will also be in heaven. (Romans 2).
As far as Ted, I don't believe in cheap grace. But then, I don't know everything about Ted so I don't know the work Ted may have done for the Lord. As far as being Just though, Ted's crime was against another human being, and his punishment came from human beings through the courts.
1. Man only lives small amount of years in this physical realm, yet we are to believe that God is going to punish him for eternity for his transgressions; this is not justice.
Justice is not allowing all the wrongs to go on without recompense. Justice is what occurred to Pharaoh when his heart was hardened. You see, nobody but God himself could impose Justice upon Pharaoh for all his wickedness, and as the bitter waters of Marah testified, it was a bitter sweet victory.
The good news my friend, is that Jesus paid the price for our sins and has released us from our own oppression, but we have to follow him, and not our own ways if we're going to make it to the promise land where we can rest... So really, isn't it about following Him?
With all due respect, let me see if I can address the arguments.
2. A person like Ted Bundy can rape and kill a young girl, who does not know Jesus as her Saviour, she spends eternity in torment, while Ted has a death row conversion and lives happily for eternity.
First off, I believe in the age of accountability, so since this girl is young, I would automatically consider her with God, and not in a place of torment. On the other side of the argument, I wuold also have to ask why she didn't know Jesus as her savior. I believe scripture states that there will be many who do not know of Jesus, that will also be in heaven. (Romans 2).
As far as Ted, I don't believe in cheap grace. But then, I don't know everything about Ted so I don't know the work Ted may have done for the Lord. As far as being Just though, Ted's crime was against another human being, and his punishment came from human beings through the courts.
1. Man only lives small amount of years in this physical realm, yet we are to believe that God is going to punish him for eternity for his transgressions; this is not justice.
Justice is not allowing all the wrongs to go on without recompense. Justice is what occurred to Pharaoh when his heart was hardened. You see, nobody but God himself could impose Justice upon Pharaoh for all his wickedness, and as the bitter waters of Marah testified, it was a bitter sweet victory.
The good news my friend, is that Jesus paid the price for our sins and has released us from our own oppression, but we have to follow him, and not our own ways if we're going to make it to the promise land where we can rest... So really, isn't it about following Him?
Miqurgw,
It is the worm and unquenchable fire that lasted. Jesus spoke of the imminent judgment to soon fall upon His audience with the invasion of Rome upon Jerusalem in 70 A.D... Probably most of those Jews who were thrown in this actual dumpsite were already dead, the greater notion is that it is the siege that was placed on this city where starvation and cannibalism occurred that gnashing of teeth came while waiting for their demise.
Samuel Dawson wrote:
Summary of the Twelve Gehenna Passages
"From these twelve Gehenna passages, we learn that Gehenna would be the familiar valley on the southwest side of Jerusalem where an imminent fiery judgment was coming on the Jews of the generation in which Jesus was crucified. It was unquenchable fire on that generation in that generation. It was a national judgment against the Jews. Gehenna was to the Jews of Jesus' day what it was to the Jews of Jeremiah's day-where the term originated-the city dump! But it entailed all the horror of being rejected and abandoned by God to the merciless enemy who surrounded the gates and who would cause their dead carcasses to be thrown into the burning, worm-infested place. Thus, when Jesus used the term He used it in the same sense that Jeremiah did: as Jerusalem then was abandoned to Babylon's invasion, so Jerusalem of Jesus' day was about to be abandoned to Roman invasion-unless they repented. None of these hell passages say that anyone of our day can go to hell. None of them associate hell with Satan. None of them say that Satan's domain is hell. Though they speak of men being killed and destroyed in Gehenna, none of them speak of men being tormented there."
Grace, Bubba
Deavonreye
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He doesn't actively speak to me. Doesn't speak to anyone else, for that matter. Someone hearing a "still small voice" is of no value to me when it comes to discussing issues with god. I would love to ask, but god remains silent.
Deavonreye
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Here's the thing, . . . . NO, . . you DON'T deserve eternal punishment. No one does. And regardless of what you or I have done, it is unethical to call for something innocent to pay for what you or I do! If we fall down, we should pay for it. . . .but nothing done in the finite is justly deserved of eternal torture. That isn't justice, and is immoral.
Yes, I do things I wish I hadn't done. I do things nearly daily. Mostly, they affect me alone. I do my best, just like you. The only difference is you are able to honestly accept biblical accounts by faith. I require more than "faith". That isn't an immoral or unethical characteristic on my part.
Also, I have issues WITH "the plan of salvation", but I'll forego discussing that here.
stovebolts
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Deavonreye ,
Is it just for a man who commits a crime to go to jail? If he gets out of jail and continues in his ways, is it just that he go to prison? If he gets out of prison and still doesn't change, is it just to put him in prison again?
Let me ask you this, at what point does punishment bring about repentance? How many times does somebody have to hurt himself before he realized that what he's doing is insane, and he needs to change direction? Tell me, can you think of a time that you've done the same stupid thing several times before you figured out that you were just hurting yourself before you changed your ways?
Unfortunatly, sometimes we are a bit thick headed and in our insanity, or urge toward self abatment that sometimes, only mercy and the forgivness of ones wrong living will bring about a change of heart.
But what about when even mercy or grace won't bring about a life change for somebody? What then? Can we truly force somebody to live right when fear doesn't bring about a life change or when even mercy itself doesn't bring about a life change?
Is it just for a man who commits a crime to go to jail? If he gets out of jail and continues in his ways, is it just that he go to prison? If he gets out of prison and still doesn't change, is it just to put him in prison again?
Let me ask you this, at what point does punishment bring about repentance? How many times does somebody have to hurt himself before he realized that what he's doing is insane, and he needs to change direction? Tell me, can you think of a time that you've done the same stupid thing several times before you figured out that you were just hurting yourself before you changed your ways?
Unfortunatly, sometimes we are a bit thick headed and in our insanity, or urge toward self abatment that sometimes, only mercy and the forgivness of ones wrong living will bring about a change of heart.
But what about when even mercy or grace won't bring about a life change for somebody? What then? Can we truly force somebody to live right when fear doesn't bring about a life change or when even mercy itself doesn't bring about a life change?
Deavonreye
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I don't believe that natural court can be used as an analogy here.
Yes, someone who does something known to be wrong over and over again could be considered "insane", but they could also be called . . . human. We aren't more than we are, but if I agreed [for the sake of argument] to biblical explainations of creation, . . . being human is how we were made. Making things that are "lacking perfection", . . . but then punishing them for being how they were made, is just wrong.
I'm still waiting on what sbg57 considers "perish" to mean. . . . and for how long.
Yes, someone who does something known to be wrong over and over again could be considered "insane", but they could also be called . . . human. We aren't more than we are, but if I agreed [for the sake of argument] to biblical explainations of creation, . . . being human is how we were made. Making things that are "lacking perfection", . . . but then punishing them for being how they were made, is just wrong.
I'm still waiting on what sbg57 considers "perish" to mean. . . . and for how long.
stovebolts
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Yeah, I'd like to hear Sbg's reply too....
What if it were more about rejecting Christ, than accepting Christ?
If you look at the Exodus event with Pharaoh, we see that he hardened his own heart well before God intervened by rejecting God's direction when he was told what the right thing to do was.
The same story plays out with those that wandered the desert for 40 years and were not allowed to enter the promise land.
All this points toward heaven, and we see that it's those that reject God's word even after seeing all that God had done, are those that don't enter God's rest.
Taking this into account, why wouldn't the analogy I put forth be considered?
BTW, hell was never designed for humans... and we store up wrath for ourselves. God gives us grace, but if we don't accept it, is He to force it upon us? If he forces his Grace upon us, then would we have free will?
Talk to you tomorrow.
Grace and peace.
What if it were more about rejecting Christ, than accepting Christ?
If you look at the Exodus event with Pharaoh, we see that he hardened his own heart well before God intervened by rejecting God's direction when he was told what the right thing to do was.
The same story plays out with those that wandered the desert for 40 years and were not allowed to enter the promise land.
All this points toward heaven, and we see that it's those that reject God's word even after seeing all that God had done, are those that don't enter God's rest.
Taking this into account, why wouldn't the analogy I put forth be considered?
BTW, hell was never designed for humans... and we store up wrath for ourselves. God gives us grace, but if we don't accept it, is He to force it upon us? If he forces his Grace upon us, then would we have free will?
Talk to you tomorrow.
Grace and peace.
Deavonreye
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I can't reject someone that I haven't formally met.
I understand that "god's word" is usually referring to "the Bible". I don't see it as supernaturally inspired and I have my reasonings for that. Even though, seeing what god had done [if we're talking about the OT] isn't a reason to embrace it.
I say it doesn't match because a human court cannot put someone in chains for eternity and cause unbearable misery.
A few things. If god is omniscient, then:
1. human "free will" is an illusion. All things play out as was forseen.
2. it was foreknown that hell WOULD have billions of humans in it, so its creation would have to have taken that into consideration for its design.
3. it would be well known, by god, how each person could be reached. Some would require more than the word of man.
If the negative aspects of the bible were not there, . . . if the biblical god actually had an advanced characteristic not including "wrath", but was a god that would be exciting to know, . . . there would still be an issue of "leaving it all up to "faith". How do I see "faith"? It is only the ability of a person to blindly believe a story just because a LOT of people say it is true. I can't be honest AND say that I can believe it at face value.
Drew
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- Jan 24, 2005
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I disagree, although I used to believe this same thing quite strongly. However, through discussions on this very board, I became convinced that God can indeed "know everything" without interfering with human free will.
The relevant argument is complex and I do not remember the details. But if you research the internet you will find serious treatment of this question, much of it from a 'secular / academic' perspective. This because the question is actually not peculiar to Christianity or even to a belief in God.
In fact, the real issue is this: If agent A knows perfectly about what agent B will do in the future, does that knowledge limit the freedom of agent B. I believe you will find the correct answer is no.
Logically I to do not believe man to have freewill, we are move to make a decision by all the stimuli that we bring into that decision that we have received since conception. The genes from our parents, where we were born, what our teachers believed, the curse of the “Fallâ€, etc, etc. Though in every age God has determined whom He would give revelation too (the elect) and whom He would not (the reprobate) in the final age, all will bow and give glory to God through Jesus. This is the God I believe in, a God who does chasten His children, but only for good not evil. The fact that you seem to be searching the ways of God and asking why does orthodoxy believe this way, tells me that maybe God is pulling at your heart and saying, consider that I have everything covered and I love you more than you can ever know in this realm. He says, see my only begotten, who experience the human condition and died in our stead that you may have life abundantly forever. God allows us to experience the pain and sorrow of this present age so that we will mature to appreciate a day of no sorrow or tears, through our Lord Jesus. This is the God I have grown to love, a God of restoration even for the vilest creature.
Blessings, Bubba
Stovebolts,
I think you would be hard put to find a cogent backing of Scripture for in age of accountability, but even if there was such Scripture, make this young woman 18 years of age with 60 plus years taken from her life, that may have been used by God (though I do not believe this way) to bring her to salvation in the typical Arminian thought. In respect to Romans 2, the Reform circles and many Arminians would say this verse has nothing to do with God saving those who never heard of Jesus, does not Paul go on to say “there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
In regards to justice, I do believe that God has paved the way through Jesus’ cross for all men sullied since the Fall, which was also part of the plan of God from the foundation of the earth. Nonetheless, even in our corrupt society there is a form of equity, that the penalty must fit the actual crime, would we think any less for the God of fairness?
Grace, Bubba
Deavonreye
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The person B might have a type of "free will" from his/her perspective, but if all things happen "by the will of god", that isn't the reality of it.
Bubba, I appreciate what you have said here, but the truth is, I can read all about what you posted, knowing it well from my past, . . . but there is no realism to it. Words in a book aren't enough.
Even if they were, I have an issue with the very purpose of Jesus that begins back into the Old Testament. I can't go into it much at all because it could sound like "bashing christianity".
Bubba, I appreciate what you have said here, but the truth is, I can read all about what you posted, knowing it well from my past, . . . but there is no realism to it. Words in a book aren't enough.
Even if they were, I have an issue with the very purpose of Jesus that begins back into the Old Testament. I can't go into it much at all because it could sound like "bashing christianity".
S
savedbygrace57
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You feel good and justifed about lying on me now ?
S
savedbygrace57
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God can do what He wants with His creatures, and so happens, He created some of thrm to be justly punished eternally for their sins, and aint nothing you can do about it.
smaller
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Deavonreye, there are some that preach Christ from a position of 'doctrinal eliteism.' Such is the case (unfortunately) with most christian sectarianism today. They proclaim, BELIEVE MY SECT or ELSE. In this way they terrorize people into CONTROL.
It's a 'take yer pick' CONSUMER mentality that panders to just about every angle.
Quite pathetic really in many ways, even while in many of these doctrinal grocery shops there are some semi-decent wares to 'buy' into.
As to your last statement, there are other ways to understand those matters (I know where you're going to go on the subject matters because I've been there.)
God has promised that as a man sows, so shall he reap. God is not mocked in this matter. IF a man shows to the spirit, from the spirit shall he reap.
No doctrinal set can 'sow' for YOU. That is in your own hand, where it rightfully should remain.
NO MAN can stop YOU from questioning GOD. You say you speak to God and there is no answer? God never verbally spoke to me, but He does 'reason' with me through His Words.
Upon that ground any man can be met therein by God.
Dialog with other believers can speed up the reasoning process IF it's 'reasonable.'
The sowing and reaping principle is pretty basic, and is even employed in many civil court jurisdictions in the form of ethics.
Christianity in part seeks to provide us with A PERFECT REFLECTION, whereas in the non-believing arena, the ethical principles are deployed to equate to what is good for us personally is also good for all (based on self interest), as the converse will result in problems. They have therein what is termed the 'spirit' of the law as well.
Christianity ratchets up the principles to a greater degree with 'longer term' goals in mind.
Don't be discouraged or dissuaded by any 'limited sheep' doctrines. They are not truthful. Believers in Truth ARE called to love their neighbors as themselves. The limited sheep camps just don't cut the mustard.
enjoy!
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Deavonreye
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And what does "justly punished eternally" mean to you? What will happen, specifically, to this person that "can do nothing about it"?
Deavonreye
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I "sowed to the spirit" for years and never found it. I knocked and the door wasn't opened. I sought and didn't find.
There was a time when I was closest to god [not that I had a real connection, but was trying my absolute hardest, at that time] and when god could have shown himself real and "in my camp" [because I was in the right], he failed me.
I read through the bible for "reason", but many times found the unreasonable. Don't get me wrong, there are some good principles found therein.
As for what I commented on about "the plan of salvation", I'm not sure if you know what my position is, but again, I don't want to make the mods uncomfortable with my thoughts. It isn't necessarily all about the crucifixion, but goes back in time.