For those of you who think we can lose our salvation

[Heidi]

For those of you who think you can lose your salvation, all one has to do is tape record all the thoughts that each of us has in any given day. Now all of us are capable of lying about our envy, greed, lust, sloth, wrath, gluttony, and pride, but a tape recorder doesn't lie. But if we confess those sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us. Then all of the above sins will be replaced with love and forgiveness. And that's how Jesus takes our sins away; by cleaning the inside of the cup so the outside will become clean as well.

So forget about trying to change the outside through acts for men to see. Only God knows our hearts and we can fool people but not God. Just make sure Jesus has washed your insides and your outside will become clean as well. "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." And since jesus said he would never abandon us, he is always there to offer forgivess for us.

 

[thessalonian]

Those whom God knows are going to be saved will not lose there salvation. Now if we only had the omniscience of God. :o I know that I am not omniscient like he is. Do you claim omniscience Heidi? But I know that I have his promise that if I trust in his grace, following him to the best of my ability (by the grace given to him) all the rest of the days of my life, I will recieve eternal life. I have eternal life right now. But it is obvious from scripture that I must remain in grace. That's what the Bible means by perseverence. Noone has ever given a good answer as to why in Gal 5 Paul speaks of "falling from grace" and being severed from Christ. How can one fall from a tree that he was never in or be severed from something he was never a part of? Does Paul speak in gibberish and nonsense? He says in corinthians, you will be saved if....unless you have BELIEVED IN VAIN! A conditional statement means the result does not happen if you are not faithful to the condition.

Many other passages.

 

[Heidi]

Those whom God knows are going to be saved will not lose there salvation. Now if we only had the omniscience of God. :o

Jesus says only his true sheep can never be snatched out of his hand. But we're supposed to find out when we die who they are.

He also says only those born again of the Holy Spirit can enter heaven and that eternal life is that we know the one true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent. He also tells us that not everyone who calls him Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. Only those who know him through the Holy Spirit which is the personhood of Christ inside all true sheep. Until then, we can only have our opinions about who is saved, which of course, are always subject to error. But Jesus also tells us that; "By their fruits you will recognize them." And I believe him.

And since our salvation comes from the blood of Christ, not from ourselves, we can never lose something that wasn't ours to begin with. It is a gift from God so that no one can boast. And since the Holy Spirit can't jump back outside of us, then those who have received him can never be snatched out of Christ's hand. Only God determines to whom he will send the Holy Spirit as Jesus tells us. But since we don't know who is called, then anyone who wants heaven can have it and anyone who doesn't wont'. It's that simple.

 

[TruthMiner]

Well one thing is for certain.

Anyone who talks about "losing" OR "keeping" salvation doesn't know what they are talking about.

Salvation is not a possession you lose or keep. It is an event. People don't keep or lose events.

The REAL question is whether or not a once born again individual can FALL SHORT of the salvation event which will occur when Jesus comes again. On that matter, the Bible is quite clear - Yes.

 

[Duder]

.

Those whom God knows are going to be saved will not lose there salvation. Now if we only had the omniscience of God. :o I know that I am not omniscient like he is. Do you claim omniscience Heidi? But I know that I have his promise that if I trust in his grace, following him to the best of my ability (by the grace given to him) all the rest of the days of my life, I will recieve eternal life. I have eternal life right now. But it is obvious from scripture that I must remain in grace. That's what the Bible means by perseverence. Noone has ever given a good answer as to why in Gal 5 Paul speaks of "falling from grace" and being severed from Christ. How can one fall from a tree that he was never in or be severed from something he was never a part of? Does Paul speak in gibberish and nonsense? He says in corinthians, you will be saved if....unless you have BELIEVED IN VAIN! A conditional statement means the result does not happen if you are not faithful to the condition.

Many other passages.

Greetings, Thessa -

I know Heidi has been kind of a prickly Protestant at times, who leaves no doubt about her stance toward Catholicism. But I have to lean toward her point of view on this one.

Think about it: If I were to analyze my thoughts and actions every five minutes or so, I bet there would be at least one sin in each of those five minute durations. The same probably applies to you, too. If you fall out of grace every time you are guilty of sin, disbelief, unfaithfulnes, etc, etc, and then enter back into grace again when you repent, we would have to imagine God writing down your name in the Book of Life, erasing your name, and then writing your name again every few minutes. In fact, He'd be busier than Bob Cratchet hunched over his ledgers!

If your condition oscillates every few minutes between saved and damned, then whether you get into heaven or not depends entirely upon whether you happened to die in one of those fleeting saved periods. "Oh, sorry, old boy, I see here you had a randy thought, and then a heart attack before you had the chance to repent of it. Tough luck, that!"

I say, if you're saved, then you're saved and there is nothing further to worry about in the saved department. If you ever discover your condition to be unsaved, then you must not have gotten saved in the first place.

This way is much less stressful on the believer, and much easier on the Divine Accounting Department.

.

 

[reznwerks]

For those of you who think you can lose your salvation, all one has to do is tape record all the thoughts that each of us has in any given day. Now all of us are capable of lying about our envy, greed, lust, sloth, wrath, gluttony, and pride, but a tape recorder doesn't lie. But if we confess those sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us. Then all of the above sins will be replaced with love and forgiveness. And that's how Jesus takes our sins away; by cleaning the inside of the cup so the outside will become clean as well.

So forget about trying to change the outside through acts for men to see. Only God knows our hearts and we can fool people but not God. Just make sure Jesus has washed your insides and your outside will become clean as well. "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." And since jesus said he would never abandon us, he is always there to offer forgivess for us.

What happens when illness or injury affects the brain? What about a brain that may be born defective? What happens when ones brain is cured?The problem may not even be known.Thoughts change based on certain chemicals in the brain. The brain will change the nature of thoughts either by chemicals or induced electrical pulses. Doctors know this and even use this to treat and even experiment. However the same processes occur naturally either exhibiting positive or negative thought patterns. The thoughts change so what about the salvation. The heart does not think the brain does. (biblical scientific innaccuracy) So how does God determine if a person should have salation if the brain is subject to change based on a whole bunch of uncontrolled stimuli.

 

[Heidi]

For those of you who think you can lose your salvation, all one has to do is tape record all the thoughts that each of us has in any given day. Now all of us are capable of lying about our envy, greed, lust, sloth, wrath, gluttony, and pride, but a tape recorder doesn't lie. But if we confess those sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us. Then all of the above sins will be replaced with love and forgiveness. And that's how Jesus takes our sins away; by cleaning the inside of the cup so the outside will become clean as well.

So forget about trying to change the outside through acts for men to see. Only God knows our hearts and we can fool people but not God. Just make sure Jesus has washed your insides and your outside will become clean as well. "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." And since jesus said he would never abandon us, he is always there to offer forgivess for us.

What happens when illness or injury affects the brain? What about a brain that may be born defective? What happens when ones brain is cured?The problem may not even be known.Thoughts change based on certain chemicals in the brain. The brain will change the nature of thoughts either by chemicals or induced electrical pulses. Doctors know this and even use this to treat and even experiment. However the same processes occur naturally either exhibiting positive or negative thought patterns. The thoughts change so what about the salvation. The heart does not think the brain does. (biblical scientific innaccuracy) So how does God determine if a person should have salation if the brain is subject to change based on a whole bunch of uncontrolled stimuli.

But God is much bigger than that. He already has a purpose for those he has called according to his purpose. Human beings aren't just brains and organs. We have a soul and a purpose that God uses for his glory. All you have to do is be willing to open up your mind and heart to God and ask Him into your life. But first you have to know you are fallible and that you sin and want Jesus to take your sins away. Then you will experience the glories of God's love forever.

 

[CatholicXian]

There are different senses of Salvation (3, to be more specific) demonstrated in the Scriptures: past, present, and future

Past:
Romans 8:24
Ephesians 2:5, 8
2 Timothy 1:9
Titus 3:5

Present:
Philippians 2:12
1 Peter 1:9

Future:
Matthew 10:22
Matthew 24:13
Mark 8:35
Acts 15:11
Romans 5:9-10
Romans 13:11
1 Corinthians 3:15
1 Corinthians 5:5
Hebrews 9:28


In speaking of the past sense, Salvation was won in Christ. Presently, we are working towards our own personal salvation (cf. Phil 2:12) that in the future we may be saved.

I do believe that once a person is saved, they are always saved... but ONLY because I believe that those who have experienced salvation to the full extent are in Heaven. On earth, we are on our way there-- we are not yet (nor is it possible for us to be) in FULL communion with God.

How can Salvation be fully had personally before we are yet in Heaven?

 

[mutzrein]

Heidi - should we make the same points here that were made in the OSAS thread that you have not yet answered?

 

[Heidi]

Heidi - should we make the same points here that were made in the OSAS thread that you have not yet answered?

Which points? You also haven't answered how we can lose a salvation that didn't come from us to begin with.

 

[TruthMiner]

Heidi - should we make the same points here that were made in the OSAS thread that you have not yet answered?

Which points? You also haven't answered how we can lose a salvation that didn't come from us to begin with.

Why do you talk about losing or keeping something that is not a possession but an event?

You might as well be asking if a ball will lose or keep its squareness.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi - should we make the same points here that were made in the OSAS thread that you have not yet answered?

Which points? You also haven't answered how we can lose a salvation that didn't come from us to begin with.

Why do you talk about losing or keeping something that is not a possession but an event?

You might as well be asking if a ball will lose or keep its squareness.

Exactly. Christ's death can never be taken back so once saved always saved. Once you meet someone then you can never again deny he exists. And since Christ said that eternal life is to know the one true God and jesus Christ whom he sent, those who have received the Holy Spirit can never lose our salvation because we have already passed from death to life.

 

[TruthMiner]

Heidi - should we make the same points here that were made in the OSAS thread that you have not yet answered?

Which points? You also haven't answered how we can lose a salvation that didn't come from us to begin with.

Why do you talk about losing or keeping something that is not a possession but an event?

You might as well be asking if a ball will lose or keep its squareness.

Exactly. Christ's death can never be taken back so once saved always saved. Once you meet someone then you can never again deny he exists. And since Christ said that eternal life is to know the one true God and jesus Christ whom he sent, those who have received the Holy Spirit can never lose our salvation because we have already passed from death to life.

Looks like that went right over your head.

Is salvation an event or a possession?

Did you keep your last birthday too?

 

[TruthMiner]

Heidi - should we make the same points here that were made in the OSAS thread that you have not yet answered?

Which points? You also haven't answered how we can lose a salvation that didn't come from us to begin with.

Why do you talk about losing or keeping something that is not a possession but an event?

You might as well be asking if a ball will lose or keep its squareness.

Exactly. Christ's death can never be taken back so once saved always saved. Once you meet someone then you can never again deny he exists. And since Christ said that eternal life is to know the one true God and jesus Christ whom he sent, those who have received the Holy Spirit can never lose our salvation because we have already passed from death to life.

Looks like that went right over your head.

Is salvation an event or a possession?

Did you still have your 8th birthday with you too?

 

[TruthMiner]

Heidi - should we make the same points here that were made in the OSAS thread that you have not yet answered?

Which points? You also haven't answered how we can lose a salvation that didn't come from us to begin with.

Why do you talk about losing or keeping something that is not a possession but an event?

You might as well be asking if a ball will lose or keep its squareness.

Exactly. Christ's death can never be taken back so once saved always saved. Once you meet someone then you can never again deny he exists. And since Christ said that eternal life is to know the one true God and jesus Christ whom he sent, those who have received the Holy Spirit can never lose our salvation because we have already passed from death to life.

Looks like that went right over your head since you did it AGAIN. Why do you refer to salvation as if it is a possesion? Do you not know it is not something you lose and it is not something you KEEP either?!!! It is an EVENT. Do you not comprehend the significance of that fact?

Is salvation an event or a possession?

Did you still have your 8th birthday with you too?

 

[TruthMiner]

Heidi - should we make the same points here that were made in the OSAS thread that you have not yet answered?

Which points? You also haven't answered how we can lose a salvation that didn't come from us to begin with.

Why do you talk about losing or keeping something that is not a possession but an event?

You might as well be asking if a ball will lose or keep its squareness.

Exactly. Christ's death can never be taken back so once saved always saved. Once you meet someone then you can never again deny he exists. And since Christ said that eternal life is to know the one true God and jesus Christ whom he sent, those who have received the Holy Spirit can never lose our salvation because we have already passed from death to life.

Looks like that went right over your head since you did it AGAIN. Why do you refer to salvation as if it is a possesion? Do you not know it is not something you lose and it is not something you KEEP either?!!! It is an EVENT. Do you not comprehend the significance of that fact? Talking about losing OR keeping an event is an absurdity. You are insisting you can't lose something that is not a possession in the first place.

Is salvation an event or a possession?

Do you still have your 8th birthday with you too?

 

[Heidi]

Heidi - should we make the same points here that were made in the OSAS thread that you have not yet answered?

Which points? You also haven't answered how we can lose a salvation that didn't come from us to begin with.

Why do you talk about losing or keeping something that is not a possession but an event?

You might as well be asking if a ball will lose or keep its squareness.

Exactly. Christ's death can never be taken back so once saved always saved. Once you meet someone then you can never again deny he exists. And since Christ said that eternal life is to know the one true God and jesus Christ whom he sent, those who have received the Holy Spirit can never lose our salvation because we have already passed from death to life.

Looks like that went right over your head.

Is salvation an event or a possession?

Did you still have your 8th birthday with you too?

My point is that we had nothing to do with our salvation, so how can we lose something that wasn't ours to begin with? If you want to miscontrue that then you are free to do so.

 

[TruthMiner]

[quote="mutzrein":d3f8c]Heidi - should we make the same points here that were made in the OSAS thread that you have not yet answered?

Which points? You also haven't answered how we can lose a salvation that didn't come from us to begin with.

Why do you talk about losing or keeping something that is not a possession but an event?

You might as well be asking if a ball will lose or keep its squareness.

Exactly. Christ's death can never be taken back so once saved always saved. Once you meet someone then you can never again deny he exists. And since Christ said that eternal life is to know the one true God and jesus Christ whom he sent, those who have received the Holy Spirit can never lose our salvation because we have already passed from death to life.

Looks like that went right over your head.

Is salvation an event or a possession?

Did you still have your 8th birthday with you too?

My point is that we had nothing to do with our salvation, so how can we lose something that wasn't ours to begin with? If you want to miscontrue that then you are free to do so.[/quote:d3f8c]

So then you don't have salvation?

 

[mutzrein]

Heidi - The following is copied from the OSAS thread so that you may see some questions I put to you that have gone unanswered.

I have highlighted the questions.

Those who think we can lose our salvation are also saying that it does depend on man's own desire or effort and not God's mercy when Paul said; "It does not therefore depend on man's own desire or efort but on God's mercy."

The truth is in the bible. All you have to do is, as Jesus says, believe it and you will be saved. But there seem to be an awful lot of people on this thread who don't believe the bible so I can see why you doubt your salvation. Faith comes from the Holy Spirit and doubt and fear come from the devil. But the bible says "Love casts out fear." Once you have the love of God in you, that love will cast out your fear. I'll pray for you.

Heidi - If Coop's scripture (which of course you must believe since it is scripture) hasn't convinced you then I will come back & challenge you some more.

In the mean time, your quote by Paul does not speak of salvation - it speaks of our spiritual birth. That is why it says it is not dependant on man's desire or effort. It is speaking in the same manner that Jesus spoke of being born again when he said, "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."

And if it was speaking of the security of our salvation why would Paul say in Phillipians, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

I mean to say, if our salvation is assured, why the fear and trembling?

Or perhaps Paul could have said, ". . . brothers, you know your salvation is assured just do the best you can. Remember the parables that Jesus spoke, well it really doesn't matter how much you have to start with, as long as long as you don't bury your talent you'll be OK."

The fact is this is a parable of the kingdom of God. Do you think the servant who buried his talent kept his salvation?

Mutzrein, Do you believe Jesus when he said; "First clean the inside of the cup and the outisde will become clean as well"? Or do you think it swas another lie?

Why do you think he said that? Do you not know what "for out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks", means?

Being a Christian takes no more work than thanking someone for rescuing us from a burning fire. But people who have no thankfulness for their rescuer have zero idea what their rescuer did for them. And therein lies the problem, not their lack of good deeds. Once people really know what Jesus did for them by suffering and being tortured for our sins, then our cup overflows with thankfulness. But if people could care less what Jesus did, then they, like the Jews, think salvation depends on their own effort. Then as Paul said in Galataions chapter two, Christ did die for nothing!

What to you think rebirth is? :o The bible says we have become a new creation in our rebirth. The old has gone and the new has come. Do you think that is another lie? What do you think the Holy Spirit does for us? Nothing? Do you think your good deeds come from yourself? If so, then you are giving yourself the glory and credit for them and not to Jesus Christ our Lord.

Do you also not believe Paul when he said; "You however are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the Spirit of the Spirit of God lives in you." Apparently not.

It is the Holy Spirit that changes our hearts, not our own wonderful, intelligent divine nature that comes from the human being as so many people would like to believe. Once again, that come from the sin of pride and sadly, there is too much of that in this thread.

 

[mutzrein]

Heidi - should we make the same points here that were made in the OSAS thread that you have not yet answered?

Which points? You also haven't answered how we can lose a salvation that didn't come from us to begin with.

Why do you talk about losing or keeping something that is not a possession but an event?

You might as well be asking if a ball will lose or keep its squareness.

Exactly. Christ's death can never be taken back so once saved always saved. Once you meet someone then you can never again deny he exists. And since Christ said that eternal life is to know the one true God and jesus Christ whom he sent, those who have received the Holy Spirit can never lose our salvation because we have already passed from death to life.

Heidi

You appear to be confusing two elements of our relationship & walk with God.

One is the birth of our spirit which has given us eternal life. This is the event known as being ‘born again.’ As you rightly point out, those who have been born again have passed from death to life.

The other stems from our birth - and it is our walk with God as His children.
From the day a child is born, it is necessary for both child and parents alike to interact for the growth and well being of the child. There are three attributes that contribute to the well being of a child that governs its destiny. Firstly: To nurture the child Secondly: To teach the child Thirdly: To give comfort and security to the child
For the child to reap the benefits of its parent’s guidance, it is necessary for the child to remain under the discipline of the parents. And so it is with all who have been born of the Spirit. We must live by the Spirit and not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other. And so to grow in the Spirit and produce fruit that lasts, we must die to the sinful nature of the flesh.

And as Paul points out in his letter to the Galatians there are those who after starting with the Spirit, go back to trying to achieve their goal by human effort. That is, they try to live according to a code of conduct that they believe will earn them favour with God. Now this is not the righteousness that comes by faith. It is self righteousness and scripture points out in many ways and places that these will not inherit the kingdom God.

You see these have been born again and passed from death to life - so the gift of life is never taken away. It is the reward of the righteous that they will never inherit and therefore salvation is denied them.

The key to working out our own salvation is not in becoming a child of God, but is remaining in faith of the provision of all that our loving heavenly Father has given us through Christ our Lord. Any who go back & wallow in self righteousness and any who walk after the lusts of the flesh and remain there rather than walk in the Spirit will not enter the kingdom of God.