For those who ascribe to Salvation by Grace through faith

[Webb]

Hi Grubal

The only Pentecostalism I can own up to is the Lord's church was established on the 1st Pentecost after my Lord was raised.

 

[Webb]

Hi KJB1769

If I have an argument with Jesus and Paul I sure don't want, if so, help me!

 

[glorydaz]

If this is so, please explain this statement of Pauls's from Romans 8:

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for (Y)if you are living according to the flesh, you [f]must die; but if by the Spirit you are (Z)putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

...sure seems like an unambiguous declaration that "how we live" plays a role in determining whether we will "live".

Paul explains the difference of walking after the flesh and walking after the Spriit, and why there is no condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST. Those in Christ live and walk in the Spirit, and mind the things of the Spirit. We've been freed from the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. see verse 9 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Believers ARE NOT IN THE FLESH because the Spirit of God DWELLS in us. This is about our position in Christ.
If you don't understand verse 9, you'll undoubtedly keep making the same mistake with this portion of scripture. It's, quite simply, a matter of whether the Spirit dwells in a person or not.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

This is the important part. God through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, does the mortifying of the deeds done in the body. This is God's job, not man's job. This is the part where He TRANSFORMS us into the image of Christ.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Those who live after the flesh shall die. Paul has already told us the believer does not live after the flesh.
We (through the Spirit who quickens our mortal bodies such that they are mortified) shall live.

It might be nice to suggest we mortify our own flesh, or we transform ourselves, but that won't work. This is the process of sanctification that takes place in those who in Christ. We can't take credit for this work any more than we can take credit for the work of the cross. Even the good we do is the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT...not ours.

We're bond slaves to Christ. Christ doesn't say thank you...much less give us life for something that is only our duty to do.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Paul explains the difference of walking after the flesh and walking after the Spriit, and why there is no condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST. Those in Christ live and walk in the Spirit, and mind the things of the Spirit. We've been freed from the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.



Believers ARE NOT IN THE FLESH because the Spirit of God DWELLS in us. This is about our position in Christ.
If you don't understand verse 9, you'll undoubtedly keep making the same mistake with this portion of scripture. It's, quite simply, a matter of whether the Spirit dwells in a person or not.




This is the important part. God through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, does the mortifying of the deeds done in the body. This is God's job, not man's job. This is the part where He TRANSFORMS us into the image of Christ.


Those who live after the flesh shall die. Paul has already told us the believer does not live after the flesh.
We (through the Spirit who quickens our mortal bodies such that they are mortified) shall live.

It might be nice to suggest we mortify our own flesh, or we transform ourselves, but that won't work. This is the process of sanctification that takes place in those who in Christ. We can't take credit for this work any more than we can take credit for the work of the cross. Even the good we do is the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT...not ours.

We're bond slaves to Christ. Christ doesn't say thank you...much less give us life for something that is only our duty to do.

Brilliant wisdom and knowledge of the truth...

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;583962]


Grubal----That seems to be a lot of "extreme" focus and introspection and I don't believe anyone actually examines things that excessively... That would probably be a "personal" examination of this or that and wouldn't be considered, "the norm."

I'll take that as a compliment towards God's work in me.

Once we realize we're a lost sinner headed for everlasting punishment and separation from God we must make a decision to place our faith or not...

Yes as long as we admit our wills are lost and not say we are free in our wills, that decision is clear so as to see only one true path and not an option.

 

[glorydaz]

To put it simply, if I have a freewill, then I am accepting Jesus' death for me and rejoicing that someone else suffered in my stead for that which I justly should have suffered. My sense of righteousness does not concede that this is an equitable trade. If however I believe that men were deceived and did not by freewill choose to sin, then I can partake of the sacrifice of Christ with a clean conscience, knowing he was protecting us from an unjust and merciless prosecutor known as Satan.

So you're really saying mankind was legitimately deceived, and had no choice in their sin?

God calls us wicked and rebellious and you call us deceived. I wonder who we should believe?

In reality, you're denigrating Christ's work on the cross.
You're saying Christ suffered and died for a bunch of people that were tricked into sinning.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I'll take that as a compliment towards God's work in me.

Yes as long as we admit our wills are lost and not say we are free in our wills, that decision is clear so as to see only one true path and not an option.

Your mistaken, there are plenty of "options" Man can place his faith in, philosophy, science, gain of money, pleasure, work, etc... Just a few examples... I ask you, just because a man admits he's will is lost, how does that, in and of itself lead man to the truth?? As I have shown you, there are plenty of options open...Why is truth, (at the moment of realizing our will is lost) so apparent?? What makes it so?? You ask copious amounts of questions and expect me to answer, so give me the respect, and answer these questions...Or not, OK??

 

[Grubal Muruch]

So you're really saying mankind was legitimately deceived, and had no choice in their sin?

God calls us wicked and rebellious and you call us deceived. I wonder who we should believe?

In reality, you're denigrating Christ's work on the cross.
You're saying Christ suffered and died for a bunch of people that were tricked into sinning.

That's called "spiritual rationalization" I believe!!

 

[kjb1769]

Had computer issues yesterday lost my reply, let's see what happens today.

What I'm attempting to show is that Paul was sent after Peter and the eleven recieced power from the Holy Ghost. Paul was sent to the Jews and Gentiles. In
Acts 22:21 Christ said "I will send" Paul to the Gentiles.
And he said unto me, Depart:for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

Then in Ro 16:25-26
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish youaccording to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ,

​

​

according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

In verse 25 according to "my gospel" Paul is sent out with a different gospel than what Peter and the 11 are sent with.​

Pauls gospel:​

​

1 MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;​

2 By which also ye are saved, if yekeep in memory what I preached unto you, unlessye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sinsaccording to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Peter and the 11 didn't know during Acts 2:38 that Christ had died for thiers sins it was a mystery kept secret since the world began. Not until Paul went to Jerusalem. In Galatians we see the record of Paul meeting with James, Cephas, & John in Jerusalem

Gal 2​

​

​

1 THEN fourteen years afterI went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.​

​

2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,

6 But of thesewho seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:​

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision,

the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles):​

Thats what I was trying to convey about the fact that we better pay attention to what is recorded in Paul's epistiles. Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles with a message that Peter knew nothing about in Acts 2:38



Something else to ponder

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.​

​

 

[kjb1769]

Sorry about the scattered up text of my last post. I'm new at this.
I tried to get it straightened out but it's still a mess.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;584116]So you're really saying mankind was legitimately deceived, and had no choice in their sin?

Yes.

God calls us wicked and rebellious and you call us deceived. I wonder who we should believe?

Of course God calls us wicked as in a condition of sin after eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and unwittingly receiving a false image of god. God calls us wicked and deceived because of blindness and sin, iniquity, vanity etc... Hence Jesus says the sick need a doctor, and forgive them they know not what they do. So why not believe Jesus?

In reality, you're denigrating Christ's work on the cross.

So how does this denigrate the cross?

You're saying Christ suffered and died for a bunch of people that were tricked into sinning.

Yes I am saying Adam and Eve were manipulated through subtlty by Satan, recognizing he was a creature of higher station and full of cunning and guile. They clearly were no match and this is twenty twenty hindsight. For how are we justified by Christ if this is not so? Even God gave promise to Eve that her seed would one day conquer the serpent and redeem mankind, and Jesus said he came to destroy the works of the devil. Are you saying you knowingly want to be a sinner? What wickedness in you makes you think they did? As for me, I know I do not want to be a sinner and I have no reason to think Adam and Eve were less than me. Doing unto others as I would have done to me is all I'm doing.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Yes.


Of course God calls us wicked as in a condition of sin after eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and unwittingly receiving a false image of god. God calls us wicked and deceived because of blindness and sin, iniquity, vanity etc... Hence Jesus says the sick need a doctor, and forgive them they know not what they do. So why not believe Jesus?


So how does this denigrate the cross?

Yes I am saying Adam and Eve were manipulated through subtlty by Satan, recognizing he was a creature of higher station and full of cunning and guile. They clearly were no match and this is twenty twenty hindsight. For how are we justified by Christ if this is not so? Even God gave promise to Eve that her seed would one day conquer the serpent and redeem mankind, and Jesus said he came to destroy the works of the devil. Are you saying you knowingly want to be a sinner? What wickedness in you makes you think they did? As for me, I know I do not want to be a sinner and I have no reason to think Adam and Eve were less than me. Doing unto others as I would have done to me is all I'm doing.

Where have you "learned" this stuff??

 

[childeye]

Where have you "learned" this stuff??

Jesus of course. I'm surprised you don't recognize his words. "the sick need a doctor" was said by him. I didn't make it up.

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;584130]Your mistaken, there are plenty of "options" Man can place his faith in, philosophy, science, gain of money, pleasure, work, etc... Just a few examples... I ask you, just because a man admits he's will is lost, how does that, in and of itself lead man to the truth??

Grubal, as I have said before, it matters not how many options there are. After all there is only one true path even as their is only one Spirit of Truth. The fact that a lost man admits he is lost is already recognizing what is true. After such a realization, that person is now receptive to correction.

As I have shown you, there are plenty of options open...Why is truth, (at the moment of realizing our will is lost) so apparent?? What makes it so??

The Holy Spirit reveals it convincingly by showing the hypocrisy of the reasoning of a lost soul.

You ask copious amounts of questions and expect me to answer, so give me the respect, and answer these questions...Or not, OK??

I am more than happy to answer any questions.

 

[Mike_S]

@Grubal Muruch

What happened to man's will in the garden as a result of the fall?

How did this affect man's knowledge of God, man's understanding of sin, man's separation from God, man's ability to hear God's voice, or know his desires.

What does it mean to be separated from God?

What is sin? How is the condition of sin remedied? How does sin affect sinful man's judgment or knowledge of wrong or right - of holy or spiritual things?

Can God want someone saved, planned from the beginning, yet be rejected, thus voiding God's desired plan?

Is the 'call' to repentance an inward conviction (spiritual), an outward hearing (words spoken or read), or both?

When man is being transformed, becoming born again, at the first moments of conversion, where does the transformation originate, from the outside working it's way inward, or inward, working it's way outward.

From your perspective, where does the beginning of a saving knowledge originate with sinful man?

 

[kjb1769]

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. -Romans 1:16

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Jesus of course. I'm surprised you don't recognize his words. "the sick need a doctor" was said by him. I didn't make it up.

Why did you feel the "necessity" to obscure that truth behind that other diatribe?? Christ indeed, came to die for sinners but, the "whole" world comes under that, "moniker." Eve was deceived, Adam "choose" to sin...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Grubal, as I have said before, it matters not how many options there are. After all there is only one true path even as their is only one Spirit of Truth. The fact that a lost man admits he is lost is already recognizing what is true. After such a realization, that person is now receptive to correction.


The Holy Spirit reveals it convincingly by showing the hypocrisy of the reasoning of a lost soul.


I am more than happy to answer any questions.

childeye-----Grubal, as I have said before, it matters not how many options there are. After all there is only one true path even as their is only one Spirit of Truth. The fact that a lost man admits he is lost is already recognizing what is true. After such a realization, that person is now receptive to correction.

Grubal---- After such a realization, that person is now receptive to correction. And is at a point where he must make a "decision" to place his faith in Christ or not!!!

childeye-----The Holy Spirit reveals it convincingly by showing the hypocrisy of the reasoning of a lost soul.

Grubal----The Holy Spirit does it by, "convicting" the man of his sin, and (making the fact known to him) the realization of his need for a Savior...

You said you'd answer questions so, Are you affiliated to a particular church or denomination? That's good for a starter...

 

[glorydaz]

Had computer issues yesterday lost my reply, let's see what happens today.

What I'm attempting to show is that Paul was sent after Peter and the eleven recieced power from the Holy Ghost. Paul was sent to the Jews and Gentiles. In
Acts 22:21 Christ said "I will send" Paul to the Gentiles.
And he said unto me, Depart:for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

Then in Ro 16:25-26
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish youaccording to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ,

​

​

according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

In verse 25 according to "my gospel" Paul is sent out with a different gospel than what Peter and the 11 are sent with.​

Pauls gospel:​

​

1 MOREOVER, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;​

2 By which also ye are saved, if yekeep in memory what I preached unto you, unlessye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sinsaccording to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Peter and the 11 didn't know during Acts 2:38 that Christ had died for thiers sins it was a mystery kept secret since the world began. Not until Paul went to Jerusalem. In Galatians we see the record of Paul meeting with James, Cephas, & John in Jerusalem

Gal 2​

​

​

1 THEN fourteen years afterI went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.​

​

2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,

6 But of thesewho seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:​

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision,

the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles):​

Thats what I was trying to convey about the fact that we better pay attention to what is recorded in Paul's epistiles. Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles with a message that Peter knew nothing about in Acts 2:38



Something else to ponder

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.​

​

We should certainly give great heed to Paul's epistles, but you should keep in mind that it was at Pentecost (Acts 2)that the Holy Spirit came unto Peter. Everything that Paul preached was supported by the words of the prophets, including Christ's death and resurrection.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

@Grubal Muruch

What happened to man's will in the garden as a result of the fall?

How did this affect man's knowledge of God, man's understanding of sin, man's separation from God, man's ability to hear God's voice, or know his desires.

What does it mean to be separated from God?

What is sin? How is the condition of sin remedied? How does sin affect sinful man's judgment or knowledge of wrong or right - of holy or spiritual things?

Can God want someone saved, planned from the beginning, yet be rejected, thus voiding God's desired plan?

Is the 'call' to repentance an inward conviction (spiritual), an outward hearing (words spoken or read), or both?

When man is being transformed, becoming born again, at the first moments of conversion, where does the transformation originate, from the outside working it's way inward, or inward, working it's way outward.

From your perspective, where does the beginning of a saving knowledge originate with sinful man?

MikeS----What happened to man's will in the garden as a result of the fall?

Grubal-----Man was created with a "free-will" and therefore, is able to make decisions based upon "choice" That ability to choose, goes "uninterrupted" from the garden until this day...Sin is an ever existing problem within man and unless he becomes "born-again Spiritually" he's "will to sin" will go on "unabated."

MikeS-----How did this affect man's knowledge of God, man's understanding of sin, man's separation from God, man's ability to hear God's voice, or know his desires.

Grubal----First of all, man (for the first time) realized he was naked after "choosing" to eat of the tree. So far as mans understanding of sin goes, he was forced to "know" the consequence of sin was "punishment." Sin separated man from God and the "only" true antidote is, the "Grace of God."

MikeS-----What does it mean to be separated from God?

Grubal-----We are separated by our sin. Our closeness has been "interrupted" by our sin (Adams sin and our own.) Remember (in the garden) God used to walk with Adam in the cool of the day...

MikeS-----What is sin? How is the condition of sin remedied? How does sin affect sinful man's judgment or knowledge of wrong or right - of holy or spiritual things?

Grubal----Sin is, active and purposeful rebellion against the laws and will of God, due to carnal and fleshly choices. Sin "was" remedied at the cross. And is "available" through the Grace of God and "initiated" by our faith...Mans carnal mind is "enmity" against God. Man is influenced to sin by, the world, the flesh, and the devil...

MikeS----Can God want someone saved, planned from the beginning, yet be rejected, thus voiding God's desired plan?

Grubal----Your question can "only" be answered one way, God desires "ALL" to be saved... Because God "created" us with "free-will" He will not coerce or force us to choose Him, otherwise, it would no longer be "free-choice."

MikeS-----Is the 'call' to repentance an inward conviction (spiritual), an outward hearing (words spoken or read), or both?

Grubal-----If you've read any of my posts (and perhaps you haven't) Romans 10:14 states, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Roman 10:17 says, "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. You must first, "hear" the word from one source or another. The Spirit then uses the word to "convict" the hearts of men...

MikeS---- When man is being transformed, becoming born again, at the first moments of conversion, where does the transformation originate, from the outside working it's way inward, or inward, working it's way outward.

Grubal-----John3:8 states, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. I'll let that verse answer the question...

MikeS-----From your perspective, where does the beginning of a saving knowledge originate with sinful man

Grubal-----From the hearing of the word to the conviction of the Spirit to the placing of our faith to the cleansing of the Spirit to the placement of our being into the "body of Christ."