For Who Did Christ Die? by John Owen

[Whatever]

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

All the sins of all men.
All the sins of some men, or
Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, “Because of unbelief.”

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!”

 

[electedbyhim]

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

All the sins of all men.
All the sins of some men, or
Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, “Because of unbelief.”

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!”

Excellent.

Thank you.

 

[brightfame52]

All the sins of some men !

 

[Whatever]

All the sins of some men !

Yes, the sheep that the Father gave to the Son.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, the sheep that the Father gave to the Son.

Do you tell people that when you share the Gospel

 

[Whatever]

Do you tell people that when you share the Gospel

No! no need to.
1Co 3:7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

The gospel is simply "whosoever believes shall be saved."

 

[brightfame52]

No! no need to.
1Co 3:7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

The gospel is simply "whosoever believes shall be saved."

Its the Gospel, part of it. It tells people exactly who Christ died for, are you ashamed of that ?

 

[Whatever]

Its the Gospel, part of it. It tells people exactly who Christ died for, are you ashamed of that ?

The Scriptures don't say Christ only died for the elect. That is a good and necessary inference from the Scriptures. Using only what Scripture says, I would have to say "Christ died for the ungodly" Romans 5:6 and then show the person he was ungodly.
"Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29
My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world. John 6:51

You don't give somebody you are witnessing to a course in systematic theology or whatever. That comes later, but not even most Christians I know aren't even interested in going that deep.

 

[brightfame52]

The Scriptures don't say Christ only died for the elect. That is a good and necessary inference from the Scriptures. Using only what Scripture says, I would have to say "Christ died for the ungodly" Romans 5:6 and then show the person he was ungodly.
"Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29
My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world. John 6:51

You don't give somebody you are witnessing to a course in systematic theology or whatever. That comes later, but not even most Christians I know aren't even interested in going that deep.

Doesnt scripture say Christ died for the Sheep ? Are they one and the same ? Seems specific enough for me.

The Scriptures don't say Christ only died for the elect. That is a good and necessary inference from the Scriptures.

Do you say that ? Also do you tell people what Christs death accomplished ? What exactly did it accomplish and for who ?

 

[brightfame52]

Whatever

Using only what Scripture says, I would have to say "Christ died for the ungodly" Romans 5:6 and then show the person he was ungodly.
"Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29
My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world. John 6:51

Ypu dont explain those terms, people naturally think those scriptures mean all without exception, and thats not correct. A good steward should explain those things, dont you think ?

I tell people all those verses pertain to the Sheep, Gods elect

 

[Whatever]

I tell people all those verses pertain to the Sheep, Gods elect

So, if you are sitting in a park and a stranger comes up to you and asks about Christianity. You are going to tell him "Don't worry about it. If you are elect you are already saved and if not, there is no reason for you to even be asking these questions. Because God sent His Son to die for the elects sins, and if you are not one of the elect, you are wasting your time and if you are one of the elect, no problem.

That is a weirdest gospel presentation I ever heard of.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Scriptures don't say Christ only died for the elect.

They do say that.......Titus
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

That is a good and necessary inference from the Scriptures. Using only what Scripture says, I would have to say "Christ died for the ungodly" Romans 5:6 and then show the person he was ungodly.

Why not show him that Romans 5 is speaking of The justified elect who have peace with God Rom5:1
5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

"Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29

The scope of our evangelism goes worldwide as the elect are scattered worldwide.The elect Chgildren given to the Son are all over the world.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world. John 6:51

It is good you have found and read a bit of John Owen, but read the whole work and learn how it is to be applied biblically and consistent!

You don't give somebody you are witnessing to a course in systematic theology or whatever.

Sure you do. You learn the truth contained insystematic theology, and then your job is to communicate it to the person in language he can grasp.Break it down for him in a way that is biblically consistent.

That comes later, but not even most Christians I know aren't even interested in going that deep.

Then you learn it first and make disciples ,teaching them to observe all Jesus commanded us.
It should not be "it comes later". revealed truth is for all people now.

 

[Whatever]

You learn the truth contained insystematic theology, and then your job is to communicate it to the person in language he can grasp.Break it down for him in a way that is biblically consistent.

But you do that in a Bible study or Sunday School class, not on a street corner with a passerby.

Then you learn it first and make disciples ,teaching them to observe all Jesus commanded us.

But Jesus commandments do not include TULIP. That is something we infer from Scripture. We teach that to those willing to learn more.

It should not be "it comes later". revealed truth is for all people now.

Do you also witness to people about the Lord commanding the Jews to annihilate every man, woman and child at Jericho? Again, I am talking about just witnessing to a person on the street. "teaching them" comes later and covers the rest of their lives.

 

[Iconoclast]

So, if you are sitting in a park and a stranger comes up to you and asks about Christianity.

Have you prayed before going to the park, and asking The lord to keep you ready to give a reason for the hope that is in you?

You are going to tell him "Don't worry about it.

No...you should explain to him that sin has alienated us from God who is Holy. He should be worried that the wrath of God has been revealed from heaven romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

If you are elect you are already saved and if not, there is no reason for you to even be asking these questions.

You do not have to speak against God and His decree of election , like the ungodly do. You present the positive truth, That God the father has planned to save a multitude of dead sinners, IN HiS Son. The Father has given them to the Son. Those children given to the Son, The Son has taken on a body of flesh and blood as they are flesh and blood, to die a Covenant death for THEM. Is this good and necessary inference, or straight bible truth?
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; ...

Because God sent His Son to die for the elects sins,

Yes, indeed......learn what it means......but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Not the seed of ADAM, but rather the seed of Abraham!

and if you are not one of the elect, you are wasting your time and if you are one of the elect, no problem.

All the elect who are given from the Father come to Jesus , ask him if he has come to Jesus yet!
jn6:37... All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

That is a weirdest gospel presentation I ever heard of.

Your idea was weird, because you are following the ungodly critics of grace, rather than being consistent and learning the implications of Owens teaching.

 

[Iconoclast]

But you do that in a Bible study or Sunday School class, not on a street corner with a passerby.

??? Who came up with that rule? We posted past each other, but I will respond here also.
Whatever..... we are on the same side, however you are trying to be so sensitive that you are being somewhat timid.
For the most part, the unsaved are not coming to sunday school, or bible study are they?
It is nice when they do visit. It should be taught in both sunday school, and bible study.
What is am suggesting to you is it is not an either or, both both and, situation.
Have you ever tried to do this? It does not look as if you have even considered it possible. I am going to suggest you try this, at the grocery store, at the coffee shop,at you childs soccer game while having conversation with the other parents.

But Jesus commandments do not include TULIP.

Jesus taught every part of tulip in the gospel of John, alone, as well as in the whole bible. Stop listening to those who hate the teaching and say such things. Those who can be labeled as believing the acronym tulip, get the teaching fron Jesus and the Apostles.

That is something we infer from Scripture. We teach that to those willing to learn more.

It is the teaching of scripture, with a label assigned to it...it is not an "inference" but rather bible doctrine.

Do you also witness to people about the Lord commanding the Jews to annihilate every man, woman and child at Jericho? Again, I am talking about just witnessing to a person on the street. "teaching them" comes later and covers the rest of their lives.

If that question comes up on the street we address it directly using the doctrines of grace right there on the spot.

 

[Whatever]

For the most part, the unsaved are not coming to sunday school, or bible study are they?

No! And hitting them with Calvinism won't get them there unless they are predisposed to philosophical stuff.

Jesus taught every part of tulip in the gospel of John

But He did it over a period of 3 or so years and the disciples still didn't seem to get it.
Show me in John 4:7 and on, where Jesus preached Calvinism to the woman at the well.

 

[Whatever]

You do not have to speak against God and His decree of election , like the ungodly do.

When have I done that? Saying that it is a very mysterious doctrine that even most Christians won't accept isn't speaking against it. I am speaking against putting stumbling blocks in a person path.
This is how it should go for a Arminian or Calvinist (condensed)
We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God
The penalty for sin is death - eternal separation from God.
but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord Rom 6:23
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved
You are a sinner.
Have you believed and been baptized?
Have you ever been to Church. Would like to come to Church with me. I can meet with you again later and we can talk about this some more.

Anything more than that in the beginning is bordering on Hyper Calvinism.

 

[Whatever]

1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

This verse by itself does not say or even imply that "Christ died only for the elect." Probably the majority of Christians consider the elect as "whosoever by his own free will accepts the gospel." They know the word "elect" is there and other places but do not want to believe what we interpret them as meaning.
Go into a Church you have not been to and in the Sunday School, and when this passage is read, blurt out your view and they will invite you to shut up and leave. Ladies will gasp and say "what?"

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Again, where is this saying anything that anybody not educated in Calvinism, would conclude that it is talking about pre-chosen elect people? 90% of Christians do not have Calvinist presuppositions in the back of their mind when they read the Bible.

I'm beginning to believe that those of you saying these things have not really read anything from educated, seminary educated Reformed writers and are just trolling me to waste my time.

 

[Iconoclast]

No! And hitting them with Calvinism won't get them there unless they are predisposed to philosophical stuff.

I do not think you understand biblical Calvinism. If you think of it as "philosophical stuff" I am sure you do not understand it.

But He did it over a period of 3 or so years and the disciples still didn't seem to get it.

They did not understand because they were not sealed with the Spirit yet,as Jesus said they would be.
Read and learn my confused friend;
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Show me in John 4:7 and on, where Jesus preached Calvinism to the woman at the well.

I show people who want to learn, not ego driven self righteous people.

When have I done that?

you have been doing so for several days now.

Saying that it is a very mysterious doctrine that even most Christians

It is not a" mysterious doctrine"....it is the gospel. Real Christians believe it, not as you claim they will not accept it.

won't accept isn't speaking against it. I am speaking against putting stumbling blocks in a person path.

The truth of God is not a stumbling block. You can take your abbreviated romans road, and throw in the 4 spiritual laws in, and you will not convince anyone, not being effectually drawn by the Spirit.

This is how it should go for a Arminian or Calvinist (condensed)
We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God
The penalty for sin is death - eternal separation from God.
but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord Rom 6:23
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved
You are a sinner.
Have you believed and been baptized?
Have you ever been to Church. Would like to come to Church with me. I can meet with you again later and we can talk about this some more.

Anything more than that in the beginning is bordering on Hyper Calvinism.

Glad we see where you stand now,lol

 

[brightfame52]

So, if you are sitting in a park and a stranger comes up to you and asks about Christianity. You are going to tell him "Don't worry about it. If you are elect you are already saved and if not, there is no reason for you to even be asking these questions. Because God sent His Son to die for the elects sins, and if you are not one of the elect, you are wasting your time and if you are one of the elect, no problem.

That is a weirdest gospel presentation I ever heard of.

That sounds like something you can only think of