For Who Did Christ Die? by John Owen

[Iconoclast]

This verse by itself does not say or even imply that "Christ died only for the elect." Probably the majority of Christians consider the elect as "whosoever by his own free will accepts the gospel." They know the word "elect" is there and other places but do not want to believe what we interpret them as meaning.
Go into a Church you have not been to and in the Sunday School, and when this passage is read, blurt out your view and they will invite you to shut up and leave. Ladies will gasp and say "what?"

I am not ashamed of the truth of the gospel as you evidently are. If they asked me to leave, I would as no truth would be found there.

Again, where is this saying anything that anybody not educated in Calvinism, would conclude that it is talking about pre-chosen elect people?

Any Christian should read the verse and understand what it is saying. You are speaking of untaught evangelicals who do not study scripture.

90% of Christians do not have Calvinist presuppositions in the back of their mind when they read the Bible.

Those people might not be christians at all, if they do not understand these basic truths.

I'm beginning to believe that those of you saying these things have not really read anything from educated, seminary educated Reformed writers and are just trolling me to waste my time.

My friend, I would say my Library is more substantial that what you have on your shelf. Having the books is one thing, reading with comprehension is another. Why did you quote Owen, if you do not believe what he wrote is the truth?

 

[Whatever]

Any Christian should read the verse and understand what it is saying. You are speaking of untaught evangelicals who do not study scripture.

And that is probably 90% of the Church today.

Those people might not be christians at all, if they do not understand these basic truths.

Basic truths? Are you a 6 day, 6,000 or so years old Earth, the flood covered the whole planet creationist? That is pretty basic too.

Why did you quote Owen, if you do not believe what he wrote is the truth?

What did Owen write that I don't believe.

 

[Iconoclast]

And that is probably 90% of the Church today.

I drove a truck cross country for over 35 years, and have visited many churches over that time.Sadly many are weak in beliefs

Basic truths? Are you a 6 day, 6,000 or so years old Earth, the flood covered the whole planet creationist? That is pretty basic too.

Yes, I believe the bible teaches that, young earth

What did Owen write that I don't believe....

You quoted a well-known portion from the Death of Death,.Did you read the whole book? I have been on many forums. Some people want help. Some people treat reformed persons as enemies. You are trying to be sensitive, and patient as we are instructed to do in 2tim 2;24-26. Reading what you post, I think you have gone too far in this, and have adopted the language of the people who resist truth as they think it is error. I have voiced my concerns to you.
What I will do as time permits, is I will back up what I have said, working through the gospel of john, showing what is now labeled tulip. ps. in the death of death, there are sections in which Owen cautions us of the assaults against truth, pages 78,79, and on into page 80 about those who evade truth.

 

[Whatever]

Did you read the whole book?

Yes! Long years ago. Here is the free PDF format 266 page book on The Death of Death in the Death of Christ

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www.apuritansmind.com

I don't know if the pages in this match the pages exactly in the book.

I don't think I am "adopting the language of the people who resist truth."
Have you ever read the book Are five points enough? : the ten points of Calvinism. This was written by Dr. Leonard J. Coppes is a graduate of Westminster Seminary (Th. D.) with extensive post-graduate language work at Dropsie. Contributing to the New King James Bible, Nelson Bible Almanac and the Theological Wordbook of the OT, Dr. Coppes has over a dozen books and pamphlets dealing with a wide-range of topics, displaying his theological grasp of current issues.

Do you agree with his other 5 points of being a Calvinist? I'm not going to tell you what they are. Those other 5 points are just as basic as the first 5 at being a Calvinist. If you haven't been teaching these, they you are failing at the whole gospel truth.

I think I will start a new thread in this Calvinist forum asking everybody if they were saved by hearing all about election and predestination, or if this is something they learned later. I will bet most will say they simply came when they learned the simple gospel truth that they are a sinner and that if they will repent and believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and that it was a lot later when they started learning all this other stuff.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes! Long years ago. Here is the free PDF format 266 page book on The Death of Death in the Death of Christ

Loading…

www.apuritansmind.com

I don't know if the pages in this match the pages exactly in the book.

I don't think I am "adopting the language of the people who resist truth."
Have you ever read the book Are five points enough? : the ten points of Calvinism. This was written by Dr. Leonard J. Coppes is a graduate of Westminster Seminary (Th. D.) with extensive post-graduate language work at Dropsie. Contributing to the New King James Bible, Nelson Bible Almanac and the Theological Wordbook of the OT, Dr. Coppes has over a dozen books and pamphlets dealing with a wide-range of topics, displaying his theological grasp of current issues.

Do you agree with his other 5 points of being a Calvinist? I'm not going to tell you what they are. Those other 5 points are just as basic as the first 5 at being a Calvinist. If you haven't been teaching these, they you are failing at the whole gospel truth.

I think I will start a new thread in this Calvinist forum asking everybody if they were saved by hearing all about election and predestination, or if this is something they learned later. I will bet most will say they simply came when they learned the simple gospel truth that they are a sinner and that if they will repent and believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and that it was a lot later when they started learning all this other stuff.

The John Owen book there God used back in the early 1980s to convince me in effectual limited atonement of Christ!

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes! Long years ago. Here is the free PDF format 266 page book on The Death of Death in the Death of Christ

Loading…

www.apuritansmind.com

I don't know if the pages in this match the pages exactly in the book.

I don't think I am "adopting the language of the people who resist truth."
Have you ever read the book Are five points enough? : the ten points of Calvinism. This was written by Dr. Leonard J. Coppes is a graduate of Westminster Seminary (Th. D.) with extensive post-graduate language work at Dropsie. Contributing to the New King James Bible, Nelson Bible Almanac and the Theological Wordbook of the OT, Dr. Coppes has over a dozen books and pamphlets dealing with a wide-range of topics, displaying his theological grasp of current issues.

Do you agree with his other 5 points of being a Calvinist? I'm not going to tell you what they are. Those other 5 points are just as basic as the first 5 at being a Calvinist. If you haven't been teaching these, they you are failing at the whole gospel truth.

I think I will start a new thread in this Calvinist forum asking everybody if they were saved by hearing all about election and predestination, or if this is something they learned later. I will bet most will say they simply came when they learned the simple gospel truth that they are a sinner and that if they will repent and believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and that it was a lot later when they started learning all this other stuff.

Sounds good, start the thread. I have not read Dr. Coppes, but i am open to it.I will search it out.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes! Long years ago. Here is the free PDF format 266 page book on The Death of Death in the Death of Christ

Loading…

www.apuritansmind.com

I don't know if the pages in this match the pages exactly in the book.

I don't think I am "adopting the language of the people who resist truth."
Have you ever read the book Are five points enough? : the ten points of Calvinism. This was written by Dr. Leonard J. Coppes is a graduate of Westminster Seminary (Th. D.) with extensive post-graduate language work at Dropsie. Contributing to the New King James Bible, Nelson Bible Almanac and the Theological Wordbook of the OT, Dr. Coppes has over a dozen books and pamphlets dealing with a wide-range of topics, displaying his theological grasp of current issues.

Do you agree with his other 5 points of being a Calvinist? I'm not going to tell you what they are. Those other 5 points are just as basic as the first 5 at being a Calvinist. If you haven't been teaching these, they you are failing at the whole gospel truth.

I think I will start a new thread in this Calvinist forum asking everybody if they were saved by hearing all about election and predestination, or if this is something they learned later. I will bet most will say they simply came when they learned the simple gospel truth that they are a sinner and that if they will repent and believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and that it was a lot later when they started learning all this other stuff.

I ordered the book by Leonard Coppes

 

[Whatever]

I ordered the book by Leonard Coppes

I noticed Amazon has the paper back for 2 prices. It has a paperback for $5.25
But it also has a mass market paperback for $36.50 - Have no idea what that is.

 

[Iconoclast]

I noticed Amazon has the paper back for 2 prices. It has a paperback for $5.25
But it also has a mass market paperback for $36.50 - Have no idea what that is.

I paid 4.50, with shipping800
used

 

[electedbyhim]

I noticed Amazon has the paper back for 2 prices. It has a paperback for $5.25
But it also has a mass market paperback for $36.50 - Have no idea what that is.

What is the name of the book?

 

[Iconoclast]

What is the name of the book?

Are five points enough?: The ten points of Calvinism

Are five points enough?: The ten points of Calvinism
Coppes, Leonard J
Sold by: reading2go

$4.50
Condition: Used - Good - Reduced from Very Good due to minor underlining and a few pages with highlighting.

 

[Iconoclast]

I paid 4.50, with shipping800
used

I got the 10 points are not enough by DR.Coppes today. Looks like a nice solid read, so far. I like several of his comments early on.

 

[electedbyhim]

I got the 10 points are not enough by DR.Coppes today. Looks like a nice solid read, so far. I like several of his comments early on.

Please share some highlights when you get in deeper.

My reading plan is full for now.

 

[Whatever]

Here is the author of that book talking about Baptism for almost an hour. He used to be Baptist and taught all the Baptist stuff about baptism but was convinced it was wrong.

 

[Iconoclast]

Please share some highlights when you get in deeper.

My reading plan is full for now.

Early on, he is defining terms, Fundamentalist, Evangelical, Calvinist, Reformed etc.
He is setting up to show that in understanding the term reformed includes a biblical worldview.
He asks thought provoking questions

 

[Iconoclast]

He progresses to show how scripture is the primary source for truth in all confessional churches.Once established he shows how confessional churches make good use of the confessions of faithHe questions those who cop-out and say something vague, like I believe what is in the Bible but never explain it at anytime.

 

[electedbyhim]

He progresses to show how scripture is the primary source for truth in all confessional churches.Once established he shows how confessional churches make good use of the confessions of faithHe questions those who cop-out and say something vague, like I believe what is in the Bible but never explain it at anytime.

I assume you are reccomending this book?

 

[Whatever]

.Once established he shows how confessional churches make good use of the confessions of faithHe questions those who cop-out and say something vague, like I believe what is in the Bible but never explain it at anytime.

A lot of Churches and Christians mock confessions.
Here is a short part of what A. A. Hodge said on them.

All that man is to believe concerning God, and the entire duty which God requires of man, are revealed therein, and are to be believed and obeyed because contained therein, because it is the word of God. This divine word, therefore, is the only standard of doctrine which has intrinsic authority binding the conscience of men. And all other standards are of value or authority only in proportion as they teach what the Scriptures teach.

While, however, the Scriptures are from God, the understanding of them belongs to the part of men. Men must interpret to the best of their ability each particular part of Scripture separately, and then combine all that the Scriptures teach upon every subject into a consistent whole, and then adjust their teachings upon different subjects in mutual consistency as parts of a harmonious system. Every student of the Bible must do this, and all make it obvious that they do it by the terms they use in their prayers and religious discourse, whether they admit or deny the propriety of human creeds and confessions. If they refuse the assistance afforded by the statements of doctrine slowly elaborated and defined by the Church, they must make out their own creed by their own unaided wisdom. The real question is not, as often pretended, between the word of God and the creed of man, but between the tried and proved faith of the collective body of God’s people, and the private judgment and the unassisted wisdom of the repudiator of creeds.

The whole thing is here. It's fairly long.

What Are Creeds & Why Do We Need Them?: A Short History of Creeds and Confessions | Monergism

by A. A. HodgeIT is asserted in the first chapter of this Confession [The Westminster Confession of Faith], and vindicated in this exposition that the

www.monergism.com

If you wonder who A. A. Hodge is, here is a bio on him:

A. A. Hodge Author Biography – Banner of Truth USA

Pastor, preacher, missionary, theologian, educator, and churchman, Archibald Alexander Hodge (1823 – 1886) was the first-born son of Charles and Sarah Hodge. Born and raised in the pleasant and intellectually stimulating environment of Princeton, New Jersey, the young Hodge enjoyed the...

banneroftruth.org

Also, the word "creed" comes from the Latin "credo" which means "I believe." So, those who say they have no creed, are saying they have no beliefs.
I've heard some say "we have no creed but Christ," but that is a creed (belief) in itself.

 

[Iconoclast]

I assume you are reccomending this book?

I think it is solid enough. The writer is a Baptist who turned Presbyterian, so I expect what I will soon encounter, but I do like his thought provoking questions. I got the book for under 5$ so it was well worth that. I do like how he sought to establish the bible as the word of the living God, and yet is a confessional person.

 

[Iconoclast]

A lot of Churches and Christians mock confessions.
Here is a short part of what A. A. Hodge said on them.

All that man is to believe concerning God, and the entire duty which God requires of man, are revealed therein, and are to be believed and obeyed because contained therein, because it is the word of God. This divine word, therefore, is the only standard of doctrine which has intrinsic authority binding the conscience of men. And all other standards are of value or authority only in proportion as they teach what the Scriptures teach.

While, however, the Scriptures are from God, the understanding of them belongs to the part of men. Men must interpret to the best of their ability each particular part of Scripture separately, and then combine all that the Scriptures teach upon every subject into a consistent whole, and then adjust their teachings upon different subjects in mutual consistency as parts of a harmonious system. Every student of the Bible must do this, and all make it obvious that they do it by the terms they use in their prayers and religious discourse, whether they admit or deny the propriety of human creeds and confessions. If they refuse the assistance afforded by the statements of doctrine slowly elaborated and defined by the Church, they must make out their own creed by their own unaided wisdom. The real question is not, as often pretended, between the word of God and the creed of man, but between the tried and proved faith of the collective body of God’s people, and the private judgment and the unassisted wisdom of the repudiator of creeds.

The whole thing is here. It's fairly long.

What Are Creeds & Why Do We Need Them?: A Short History of Creeds and Confessions | Monergism

by A. A. HodgeIT is asserted in the first chapter of this Confession [The Westminster Confession of Faith], and vindicated in this exposition that the

www.monergism.com

If you wonder who A. A. Hodge is, here is a bio on him:

A. A. Hodge Author Biography – Banner of Truth USA

Pastor, preacher, missionary, theologian, educator, and churchman, Archibald Alexander Hodge (1823 – 1886) was the first-born son of Charles and Sarah Hodge. Born and raised in the pleasant and intellectually stimulating environment of Princeton, New Jersey, the young Hodge enjoyed the...

banneroftruth.org

Also, the word "creed" comes from the Latin "credo" which means "I believe." So, those who say they have no creed, are saying they have no beliefs.
I've heard some say "we have no creed but Christ," but that is a creed (belief) in itself.

Agreed....I have Hodges systematic theology. I am a confessional Reformed Baptist.