Bible Study Forgiveness?

[Not_Now.Soon]

OK, but we should never stay away or stray from the Truth. It should be our life's endeavor to know our Lord and His will.

On seeking the truth and striving to know and act on God's will, I whole heartedly agree. But where we differ is what we think is the truth. It sounds like your conclusions are about being sincere, and being spiritually driven. And though I agree these are important attributes of our faith, because these are a way to feel the relationship with God. Being guided by the Holy Spirit is something we should hope to have. But don't let that focus fool you. There's a reason we are warned to test the spirits to see if they really are from God. That conclusion is one I've adopted by seeing the emotions of a people fly high and then easily be taken advantage of, conned, or become a danger amongst themselves. Their spiritual understandings and their emotions were confused with one another. Look at 1 Kings 21 to see what I mean about minipulating people's zeal and setting them up for an evil they are unaware of. It is an ugly thing to consider.

So for me as much as I want a spiritual feeling with my actions and my faith, and as glad as I am when I think I've gotten that, the standard still has to be what does God teach from the bible, and can that standard confirm or correct the spiritual understanding I think I have. My path has lead me to what is taught (for our understanding and a standard), how can it be applied (for practicalities sakes), and what conclusions can we glean from both the understanding and the practice of the teachings I
in the bible (for our growth, but still put against the standards in the bible to confirm or reject them.)

And this is where we both differ on forgiveness. You hold the ground to be sincere in your spirit, and not forgive unless the spirit guides you to forgive. I hold the ground that forgiveness is what is required of us as Christians, and on a practical level it should be strived for always. In the specific case of the pastor and the teens, I don't think I could forgive them, or at least not so soon, unless God helped. But we are taught to not return evil for evil, conquer evil by doing good, and to forgive if we want to be forgiven. I think the pastor whether he fully forgave them, or is striving to do so. Forgiving is the right action to take, and I agree with him.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

We are inevitably led to try to see forgiveness as an all or nothing deal.

In practical terms it will always lead to frustrations. There is a sound reason to direct forgiveness and an equally sound reason to abide within the judgment that God also allows.

So, in practical terms, let's look at our own condition prior to our own belief in Christ, and SEE that there is a two fold state of present life. This state of present being is known in several ways by several terms in the scriptures. And I've tried, quite often, to point these out here without much success. There are scriptural reasons WHY this is not seen or accepted. That resistance is also scheduled by God Himself, to direct our sights properly OR to inflame the other party. It's very predictable, according to the patterns set forth by the scriptures.

Here then was our state of being prior to belief:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

In the above example, for which there are many other scriptural examples, God in Christ is NOT seeking and NOT forgiving the spirit of disobedience. And this "spirit" is differentiated from the PERSON above. It is notable that this is directed to "ye" meaning plural or multiple. Ye idicates "more than one party."

So, ye, meaning what most see as "just me" wasn't/isn't just me. It was "me" AND "the spirit of disobedience."

God has no intentions whatsoever of "forgiving" the spirit of disobedience. It's just not going to happen. Forgiveness in the scriptural quotients is only to the person, the captive, and NOT to the spirit of disobedience.

It is an important distinction in sights. We can not logically just heap forgiveness to the entire quotient. It's not possible. It's not what God in Christ does. And it's not practical exactly for that reason. The "sight" and "conveyance" must therefore be divided/split accurately in order to maintain sound judgments.

This same practice is shown throughout the scriptures. By Jesus toward those men who nailed Him to His Cross for example were forgiven by Jesus. The spirit of disobedience that blinded and made those men captives however will not be recipients of forgiveness.

Same with the stoning of Stephen. Stephen saw exactly as Jesus saw those men who stoned him. They were captives of the spirit of disobedience. This is how Stephen saw those men who killed him. As a "ye," the man, and the spirit of disobedience.

The spirit of disobedience cannot be forgiven. It's not possible, never was possible.

We are called out to walk apart from that spirit of disobedience. This is in fact the "call" of the Gospel. We are to recognize that sin is of the devil, and are (or should be anyway) led NOT to be his captive slave, to sin in the flesh, lest that captivity overtake our flesh and control US.

And that is exactly what happens with those we are to forgive. We understand that they do the things they need forgiveness for are caused by their captivity in the flesh/mind to the spirit of disobedience.

The captive is forgiven. The captor, not.

In this quotient of forgiveness there are two sights to be had. Forgiveness and the opposite. Sound judgments against the captor, the spirit of disobedience. To fall one way or the other is a basic scriptural train-wreck of confusions because BOTH sights must apply.

I keep this sight fixed in mind when I view anyone. Even myself.

This same sight is demanded by God, even in the O.T. Let's observe again, what happens in the below. It is the same as I've described above.

Numbers 14:18
The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

The foundation of Mercy itself is predicated on the need for same, that is brought about by the state of captivity to the spirit of disobedience in the flesh.

And, though it can be pointed out, even in bold and contrasted colors, believers themselves still can't see this distinction. And this too is by GOD working against the spirit of captivity and disobedience.

This sounds very close to two good philosophies I've seen, Smaller.

"Hate the sin, but love the sinner."
And
"Test the spirits to see if they are from God." Even if the spirit is our own, and our own modivations.

However I think there's a slippery fence to stand on in the statement:

In practical terms it will always lead to frustrations. There is a sound reason to direct forgiveness and an equally sound reason to abide within the judgment that God also allows.

The idea to let justice and vengeance be God's I think is for our benifit and keeps us from seeking to employ God's judgment on another through our actions. Just my opinion though. Sorry.

 

[smaller]

This sounds very close to two good philosophies I've seen, Smaller.

"Hate the sin, but love the sinner."
And
"Test the spirits to see if they are from God." Even if the spirit is our own, and our own modivations.

However I think there's a slippery fence to stand on in the statement:

The idea to let justice and vengeance be God's I think is for our benifit and keeps us from seeking to employ God's judgment on another through our actions. Just my opinion though. Sorry.

Sound judgment is mandatory for every believer. We are not told or advised to "forgive" the spirit of disobedience, ever, period. Our quest is to always point others away from the captivity of the spirit of disobedience and to "divide" them from IT, NOT forgive that spirit or to ignore it or to bless any of that activity in any way.

Discussions of vengeance is entirely another matter.

 

[smaller]

Anyone who's raised children or remembers their own youthful engagements with disobedience knows that there are factual penalties in life for those who engage with the spirit of disobedience.

Do we unequivocally love our children? Of course! Do we forgive them? Of course! But this does not address the fact that we "all" down to the least of us do engage our own adverse behavior of the flesh engaging the spirit of disobedience, starting at an early age. We are essentially led, by practical engagements, to control ourselves and direct ourselves in productive manners in order to not fall into the control of disobedience of ourselves or of others who may be so engaged on the adversarial side of the ledgers.

These are simple life lessons for every person that most people "learn." Few however make the distinction between themselves and that spirit of disobedience that is not them, because they are intimately "wound up" with this adverse engagement, internally, and have no distinction in these matters other than "it" being only themselves.

That is not what scriptures teach us. The Spirit and the Word teaches us to SAY NO to unrighteousness because unrighteousness is there in our members, to SAY NO to.

Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

All of us, in practical life, are continually faced with having to SAY NO. And this, because our own flesh is contrary by nature to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

The fate of our present life is quite wound up in this engagement of constantly engaging on the NO SIDE of the ledgers. The instant we cut that side of our nature in the flesh ANY slack, any believer knows, by life's lessons, that it can get out of hand quite quickly.

We are essentially "unforgiving" to this contrariness and this MUST be in order to function properly and in order.

Though I love my children deeply, and forgive them, I know and they know that it is our own engagements with the unrighteousness in our own flesh that must be met with NO and "unforgiveness" in order to dominate over it, lest we become it's willing slave.

And there is also a great and deep trap here, in these sights, because if we say we "have" no unrighteousness to say no to, we become liars and hypocrites. This is the deepest anti-spiritual pit to fall into, that most believers sooner or later have to come to grips with, individually.

I am very unforgiving to myself, to my own contrary flesh, for very good Spiritual Reasons.

You learn, from engaging adversity, to practice this. I might even say, that the more that is learned in this direction, the more you are given to learn, in saying NO. We all practice this, probably daily, do we not?

How many parents do you witness giving 'all love and forgiveness' and 'no discipline/saying NO' to the unrighteousness of their own children? I see it continually with scores of parents. And they do their children no favors in this one sided sight.

This is what is bound up in all of us, and we DO learn that there is a part of ourselves that is DUE no forgiveness:

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Is the EVIL in any of us forgiven? Never!

God has already shown us HIS DOMINION in placing us all in an internal position of both good and evil. This is the factual construct of everyone and we are FOOLS if we think otherwise.

Many people read this and falsely think that by saying YES to or "choosing" LIFE they have eliminated the other side of the equations. And that is the essence of EVIL's DECEPTION.

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

 

[Douglas Summers]

Anyone who's raised children or remembers their own youthful engagements with disobedience knows that there are factual penalties in life for those who engage with the spirit of disobedience.

Do we unequivocally love our children? Of course! Do we forgive them? Of course! But this does not address the fact that we "all" down to the least of us do engage our own adverse behavior of the flesh engaging the spirit of disobedience, starting at an early age. We are essentially led, by practical engagements, to control ourselves and direct ourselves in productive manners in order to not fall into the control of disobedience of ourselves or of others who may be so engaged on the adversarial side of the ledgers.

These are simple life lessons for every person that most people "learn." Few however make the distinction between themselves and that spirit of disobedience that is not them, because they are intimately "wound up" with this adverse engagement, internally, and have no distinction in these matters other than "it" being only themselves.

That is not what scriptures teach us. The Spirit and the Word teaches us to SAY NO to unrighteousness because unrighteousness is there in our members, to SAY NO to.

Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

All of us, in practical life, are continually faced with having to SAY NO. And this, because our own flesh is contrary by nature to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

The fate of our present life is quite wound up in this engagement of constantly engaging on the NO SIDE of the ledgers. The instant we cut that side of our nature in the flesh ANY slack, any believer knows, by life's lessons, that it can get out of hand quite quickly.

We are essentially "unforgiving" to this contrariness and this MUST be in order to function properly and in order.

Though I love my children deeply, and forgive them, I know and they know that it is our own engagements with the unrighteousness in our own flesh that must be met with NO and "unforgiveness" in order to dominate over it, lest we become it's willing slave.

And there is also a great and deep trap here, in these sights, because if we say we "have" no unrighteousness to say no to, we become liars and hypocrites. This is the deepest anti-spiritual pit to fall into, that most believers sooner or later have to come to grips with, individually.

I am very unforgiving to myself, to my own contrary flesh, for very good Spiritual Reasons.

You learn, from engaging adversity, to practice this. I might even say, that the more that is learned in this direction, the more you are given to learn, in saying NO. We all practice this, probably daily, do we not?

How many parents do you witness giving 'all love and forgiveness' and 'no discipline/saying NO' to the unrighteousness of their own children? I see it continually with scores of parents. And they do their children no favors in this one sided sight.

This is what is bound up in all of us, and we DO learn that there is a part of ourselves that is DUE no forgiveness:

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Is the EVIL in any of us forgiven? Never!

God has already shown us HIS DOMINION in placing us all in an internal position of both good and evil. This is the factual construct of everyone and we are FOOLS if we think otherwise.

Many people read this and falsely think that by saying YES to or "choosing" LIFE they have eliminated the other side of the equations. And that is the essence of EVIL's DECEPTION.

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

The Scriptures tell what to test for and that is those who deny Christ Deity (He is God in the flesh) and deny that Christ Cross and Blood was not enough to save us. We need works also. That is the spirit of antichrist. And because I was born again and the Spirit of Christ teaches me and leads me unto all Truth to minister to others. Who do you say teaches you? Be careful about denying the work of the Holy Spirit in me and attesting it to a false spirit. Christ says those things will not be forgiven.
Israel had to choose one or the other (life or death), for they took the Law as their Judge. The Church is not Israel. We are not under the First Covenant. But we are under the New Covenant.

THE Church is called, we do not join. All things changed with the Calling out of the Church (Christ Living Body).

• A new Covenant (Book of Hebrews)
• A new High Priest (Hebrews)
• From the tribe of Judah / not Levi (Hebrews)
• A change in evangelizing and witnessing (Luke 22:35-37)
• A change in our relationship with the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:46-49)
• A change from childhood to sonship and heirs of Christ (Rom. 8:14-17)
• From under The Law to Grace (Rom. 6:14)
• From fear of The Lord to peace and assurance
• And much, much more

If you are in fellowship with the Lord, you ask Him if I'm a false prophet.

 

[smaller]

The Scriptures tell what to test for and that is those who deny Christ Deity (He is God in the flesh) and deny that Christ Cross and Blood was not enough to save us. We need works also. That is the spirit of antichrist. And because I was born again and the Spirit of Christ teaches me and leads me unto all Truth to minister to others. Who do you say teaches you? Be careful about denying the work of the Holy Spirit in me and attesting it to a false spirit.

It is no false spirit Douglas, that teaches us to say NO to unrighteousness and yes, that MUST be said to ourselves and I would expect anyone "in Truth" knows this is true as well. I'm only surprised when believers don't understand this is a fact quite frankly.

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Saying no is of far more value in this equation than trying to forgive the impetus and actions of lusts, resulting in sins.

Were we to say YES and heap FORGIVENESS to lusts, I'm sure you could see that the results would not be so good at all.

God in Christ is not going to be blessing or condoning any person's evil in any way shape or form.

That will simply never happen. Believers who think forgiveness put's evil in any of it's ways works or actions off the hook are misled in trying to do so. It's not ever let off the hook, because ALL these things have their basis in the deception of the spirit of disobedience. It is THAT spirit that WILL pay a certain deadly price. So, no forgiveness whatsoever to that working in anyone.

God in Christ did NOT pay the price of His Life so everyone can sin with disregard to the consequences under the guises of 'forgiveness.' That much is certain.

 

[Douglas Summers]

It is no false spirit Douglas, that teaches us to say NO to unrighteousness and yes, that MUST be said to ourselves and I would expect anyone "in Truth" knows this is true as well. I'm only surprised when believers don't understand this is a fact quite frankly.

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Saying no is of far more value in this equation than trying to forgive the impetus and actions of lusts, resulting in sins.

Were we to say YES and heap FORGIVENESS to lusts, I'm sure you could see that the results would not be so good at all.

God in Christ is not going to be blessing or condoning any person's evil in any way shape or form.

That will simply never happen. Believers who think forgiveness put's evil in any of it's ways works or actions off the hook are misled in trying to do so. It's not ever let off the hook, because ALL these things have their basis in the deception of the spirit of disobedience. It is THAT spirit that WILL pay a certain deadly price. So, no forgiveness whatsoever to that working in anyone.

God in Christ did NOT pay the price of His Life so everyone can sin with disregard to the consequences under the guises of 'forgiveness.' That much is certain. Smaller, The Spirit teaches us truth into all things to those who have been born again. This does not apply to church goers. I do not know your gospel you posted above. For I do not know any born again believers that think they can now sin because Christ died for their sins. I know that, and so do all born again believers. For the Spirit lusteth after us to give us more grace, For God resisteth the proud. (James 4:5-12). The born again believer has cut ties with the worlds principles, for we are not friends with the worlds principles. Therefore, taking many temptations and obstetrical out of the way beforehand.
But what you speak of is written in Romans Chapter 6. Read the whole chapter, not just a few Scriptures from it. This is a warning to the curious or nominal christian. I do know of some denomination that practice what Romans 6 teaches against, but what does that have to do with the born again believer? or me? I do not believe or teach such things.

 

[Jim Parker]

The recent murder of a youth pastors wife (Amanda Blackburn) during a home invasion was appalling to say the least. She was 16 week pregnant. She was raped and shot in the head while her youngest child was sleeping in bed.
They caught the murderers (there were 4 or 5 teenagers) that belong to a club called,"The Kill Gang".
Youth pastor Blackburn (her husband) after they were caught said he had already forgive them ?????

I have to tell you, I would not have!!!! I would be full of rage and want justice. When they crucified the Lord on the cross, He say's, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," (Luke 23:34). That is completely different than what this kill gang did. They knew what they were doing and planned to do so. The question is,"can they be saved?" Yes! But salvation comes first through repentance (conversion) and the Blood of Christ. But the son's of Satin will not repent,(convert) for Satin is their father.(John 8:41-44) .
I think that some Christians are so eager to show grace that the flesh gets in the way of Spiritual and divine order. There is only one thing that condemns a man to death. Rejection The Christ.

Mat 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (NKJV)

Refusing to forgive causes one to retain anger and malice which harms the one who holds it.
Refusing to forgive is like taking poison and hoping the other guy will die.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

I dont see any scripture on forgiving evil. Pray for enemys and love your enemys is about the closest I know, not forgiving. You should not hate them, and pray for them, but forgiveness, I think thats a personal choice.

Here ya go, I posted them so you can see them: (NKJV)

Mat 6:14-15 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mat 18:21-22 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Those verses are followed by a parable ending at v.35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

Mar 11:25-26 “And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses.”

Luke 6:37 “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

iakov the fool

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

iakov the fool

Jim, just out of courisity, what does "iakov the fool" mean, or just "iakov" mean?

 

[smaller]

Smaller, The Spirit teaches us truth into all things to those who have been born again. This does not apply to church goers. I do not know your gospel you posted above. For I do not know any born again believers that think they can now sin because Christ died for their sins.

Without question we are taught to say NO to the unrighteousness of SIN. This does not equate to "forgiving" unrighteousness, but condemning same.

I know that, and so do all born again believers. For the Spirit lusteth after us to give us more grace,

Again, scripture teaches us, specifically, that the Spirit is against and contrary to the flesh.

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The questions that I engage in these matters is WHY they are contrary. And when these reasons are brought out, they are openly resisted and denied, because THAT is what the "flesh" does.

For God resisteth the proud. (James 4:5-12). The born again believer has cut ties with the worlds principles, for we are not friends with the worlds principles. Therefore, taking many temptations and obstetrical out of the way beforehand.

The flesh of believers is not one bit different than anyone else's. Contrary to the Spirit. This does not change after belief either. There is ZERO obstetrical REMOVAL of sin from the flesh of any believer, period.

But what you speak of is written in Romans Chapter 6. Read the whole chapter, not just a few Scriptures from it. This is a warning to the curious or nominal christian. I do know of some denomination that practice what Romans 6 teaches against, but what does that have to do with the born again believer? or me? I do not believe or teach such things.

Every scripture, cover to cover, is profitable to all christians, not to the new or nominal only. Luke 4:4, Matt. 4:4, from the Mouth of Jesus Himself. You'll have to be more specific in whatever critique you're trying to apply.

What I observed in Romans 6 was this fact:

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

You can claim forgiveness to lusts. I will maintain that the only credible scriptural posture to LUSTS and TEMPTATIONS and DECEPTIONS in and of the flesh is condemnation.

This is the same condemnation that brings the flesh into DEAD subjection.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim, just out of courisity, what does "iakov the fool" mean, or just "iakov" mean?

"Iakov" is the Russian and Yiddish word which in English becomes "James." (From Jakob)

Using the moniker "iakov the fool" is a reminder not to take myself too seriously.

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

Mat 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (NKJV)

Refusing to forgive causes one to retain anger and malice which harms the one who holds it.
Refusing to forgive is like taking poison and hoping the other guy will die.

iakov the fool

Then forgive. But forgiving does not come from saying. It comes by Charity because of rebirth. 1 Corinthians Chapter 12.

 

[Jim Parker]

Then forgive. But forgiving does not come from saying. It comes by Charity because of rebirth. 1 Corinthians Chapter 12.

I'm afraid that doesn't tell me anything I can put to use. Please describe, in observable and countable terms, the behavior that "that comes by Charity because of rebirth."

thanks

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

I'm afraid that doesn't tell me anything I can put to use. Please describe, in observable and countable terms, the behavior that "that comes by Charity because of rebirth."

thanks

iakov the fool

Jim, you should know these things. If you are a born again believer, then you received the Spirit of Christ as I and all born again believers. i don't know you?

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim, you should know these things. If you are a born again believer, then you received the Spirit of Christ as I and all born again believers. i don't know you?

Ah! So you are unable to describe forgiveness in observable and countable terms.

I can. Here's what it looks like:

Whenever the remembrance of the offense arises I choose not to become angry and not to dwell on the incident. Then I tell myself, "I have forgiven that person." and follow that up with "I bless that person."

I repeat those behaviors as often as the offense comes to mind or is brought to mind by anyone else. Eventually, the thought of the offense ceases to provoke any feelings of anger or any desire for retribution. Those feelings gradually become replaced by a sorrow for the offender's sin and a desire that God would forgive him/her.

Works every time. (Though it may take some time.)

I find that if i cannot describe the behavior in observable and countable terms then I cannot exhibit (do) the behavior. That's why it's important to be able to describe what you are talking about in precise terms rather than in general terms.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

There is ZERO obstetrical REMOVAL of sin from the flesh of any believer, period.

Obstetrics is the field of study concentrated on pregnancy, childbirth, and the postpartum period. As a medical specialty, obstetrics is combined with gynecology under the discipline known as obstetrics and gynecology (OB/GYN).

So, I wonder, what in the world are you talking about?

iakov the fool

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Then forgive. But forgiving does not come from saying. It comes by Charity because of rebirth. 1 Corinthians Chapter 12.

Actually Douglas, I'd like to know what you mean by charity in 1 Corinthians 12. That chapter doesn't seem to be about charity, but the majority of it was about the different parts of the Body of Jesus. And how we are all given different gifts and talents. If you could explain the context that you mean that eould be great.

On that note,

I'm afraid that doesn't tell me anything I can put to use. Please describe, in observable and countable terms, the behavior that "that comes by Charity because of rebirth."

thanks

iakov the fool

From reading Douglas's thoughts on charity, the context of it sounds very much like giving with a willingness, not out of obligation. Perhaps it comes from 2 Corinthians 9:6

 

[Douglas Summers]

Ah! So you are unable to describe forgiveness in observable and countable terms.

I can. Here's what it looks like:

Whenever the remembrance of the offense arises I choose not to become angry and not to dwell on the incident. Then I tell myself, "I have forgiven that person." and follow that up with "I bless that person."

I repeat those behaviors as often as the offense comes to mind or is brought to mind by anyone else. Eventually, the thought of the offense ceases to provoke any feelings of anger or any desire for retribution. Those feelings gradually become replaced by a sorrow for the offender's sin and a desire that God would forgive him/her.

Works every time. (Though it may take some time.)

I find that if i cannot describe the behavior in observable and countable terms then I cannot exhibit (do) the behavior. That's why it's important to be able to describe what you are talking about in precise terms rather than in general terms.

iakov the fool

Actually Douglas, I'd like to know what you mean by charity in 1 Corinthians 12. That chapter doesn't seem to be about charity, but the majority of it was about the different parts of the Body of Jesus. And how we are all given different gifts and talents. If you could explain the context that you mean that eould be great.

On that note,



From reading Douglas's thoughts on charity, the context of it sounds very much like giving with a willingness, not out of obligation. Perhaps it comes from 2 Corinthians 9:6

Hi Soon, There is nothing that we have in the way of walking with the Lord that was not given to us (they are all gifts). Every gift is given by the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit . (1 Cor. 12: 7-13) Paul says, "it is not I, but Christ in me. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. What Jim describes in his post about how he accomplishes forgiveness, is a good example of how we attempt to do works in the flesh. It is good to not harbor contempt. But as a born again believer (Charity kjv) or (love akjv) is the result of charity received.
The gifts are not ours to use and it is not power given the believer to use, but rather the Spirit manifest (shows or reveals) Himself in using the believer for a specific service. And the manifestation of those gifts are given to 1 Cor. 12 :8-10 and Eph. 4: 8-13) And then God sets the members of the body (everyone of them) as it pleases Him) 1 Cor. 12:18.

So forgiveness is not of the fleshy mind, for the better way is from the Charity received, which is in all born again believers heart by rebirth, so that forgiveness given is by love and not by law of the mind, which leads to 1 Corinthians Chapter 13, The more excellent way. Those who have to conjure up in the flesh a forgiveness that satisfies the flesh have never known the Charity of Grace that is shed in our hearts. I feel mercy and grace and the love of God ascending out of the Spirit in me, when I forgive others.