Foundation of Apostles and Prophets - Is it the local church or the bible?

[jonahmano]

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (Ephesians 2:19-20 KJV)

One guy was seriously arguing that apostles and prophets are the local church but I strongly believe this scripture is not talking about local churches' apostles and prophets and their teaching and doctrines, protocols, etc, etc.

I have understood that 'apostles' is referred to new testament which is the reality and 'prophets' is referred to old testament which is the shadow and having Jesus Christ Himself the chief corner stone which is our primary belief - we are saved by grace through faith and anything built on our primary faith and then on the foundation of the New testament first and the old testament later.

Can any one counter me on this?

 

[Eugene]

.
Brother @jonahmano, I’m not certain this is what you’re looking for, but hope it helps.

1Cor 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
Jesus put it this way:
Rev 2:8 . . . the church in Smyrna . .
Rev 2:12 . . the church in Pergamos . .
Rev 2:18 . . the church in Thyatira . .
Rev 3:1 . . . the church in Sardis . .

Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

1 Cor 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
.

 

[iLOVE]

Brother jonahmano,
The Lord has given to the Church the fivefold Offices of "Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers" (Eph. 4:11). It is Apostles who head the list, and in fact, can function in any one of these Callings, and often do. We learn this from the Book of Acts and the Epistles. It is through Apostles that the Lord guides the Church, provides its Leadership under Christ, and sets the course of Doctrine according to the Word of God. Again, we find this in the Book of Acts and the Epistles.

 

[jonahmano]

Dear brothers
I'm very much aware of Ephesians 4:11 and the office of the church and I believe in the five-fold office of the church and have witnessed that very least of the local churches have them but I still believe because what God has spoken He won't take it back but I don't think what's written in Ephesians 2:20 is anything to do with the apostles and prophets of the local churches . Please also remember that Paul also said in many places to hold on to the teachings of the apostles.
Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:13

The bible which began from Genesis and ended in Revelation and no one can add anything to it and I believe Ephesians 2:20 is very much fitting to the Holy Bible and not the local church.

 

[jonahmano]

.
Brother @jonahmano, I’m not certain this is what you’re looking for, but hope it helps.

1Cor 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
Jesus put it this way:
Rev 2:8 . . . the church in Smyrna . .
Rev 2:12 . . the church in Pergamos . .
Rev 2:18 . . the church in Thyatira . .
Rev 3:1 . . . the church in Sardis . .

Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

1 Cor 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
.

Brother I don't understand what you want to put in my heart. I'm neither of Paul or Apollos or my local church pastor but I'm of the Lord Jesus Christ.

You have very well quoted how Jesus put the churches in revelation but what does those churches have to do with Ephesians 2:20. I'm very much convinced that we need to build ourselves on the foundation of the bible which is new testament first, the reality and the old testament, second, the shadow and that foundation having Jesus Christ the corner stone which is nothing but the free gift of salvation by grace through faith.

Now when you say 'one body' it looks so beautiful in writing but when it's come to reality, the church especially the local church is not universal. Every one have their own set of protocols, doctrines, teachings.

 

[Hospes]

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (Ephesians 2:19-20 KJV)

One guy was seriously arguing that apostles and prophets are the local church but I strongly believe this scripture is not talking about local churches' apostles and prophets and their teaching and doctrines, protocols, etc, etc.

I have understood that 'apostles' is referred to new testament which is the reality and 'prophets' is referred to old testament which is the shadow and having Jesus Christ Himself the chief corner stone which is our primary belief - we are saved by grace through faith and anything built on our primary faith and then on the foundation of the New testament first and the old testament later.

Can any one counter me on this?

I think "prophets" referred to the recognized OT prophets, the apostles were the early church's version of the OT prophets in that to disregard their teaching was to disregard God. At this point we are left with two offices: elders and deacons.

It is not necessary to read Ephesians 4:11 as an exhaustive list of offices, especially since the office of deacon is conspicuously absent. The list could very well be a smattering of those that "equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ". (In other passages, the Apostle Paul rattles off lists of spiritual gifts in a similar way, i.e. as representative lists used to make his point and not as exhaustive lists.)

 

[Sinthesis]

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (Ephesians 2:19-20 KJV)

One guy was seriously arguing that apostles and prophets are the local church but I strongly believe this scripture is not talking about local churches' apostles and prophets and their teaching and doctrines, protocols, etc, etc.

I have understood that 'apostles' is referred to new testament which is the reality and 'prophets' is referred to old testament which is the shadow and having Jesus Christ Himself the chief corner stone which is our primary belief - we are saved by grace through faith and anything built on our primary faith and then on the foundation of the New testament first and the old testament later.

Can any one counter me on this?

I agree that in Ephesians 2:19-20 the apostles and prophets in general terms relate to teaching that we have available to us in the new and old testaments respectively. Personally, I don't believe anyone today should take for themselves the title of apostle or prophet. They, at best, seem like poor imitations of the very real biblical characters. At worst, frauds.

2Co 11:12 - But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13 - For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.​

 

[jocor]

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (Ephesians 2:19-20 KJV)

One guy was seriously arguing that apostles and prophets are the local church but I strongly believe this scripture is not talking about local churches' apostles and prophets and their teaching and doctrines, protocols, etc, etc.

I have understood that 'apostles' is referred to new testament which is the reality and 'prophets' is referred to old testament which is the shadow and having Jesus Christ Himself the chief corner stone which is our primary belief - we are saved by grace through faith and anything built on our primary faith and then on the foundation of the New testament first and the old testament later.

Can any one counter me on this?

I do not believe the reference to "prophets" refers to OT prophets, but NT prophets. The passage is dealing with the holy temple that is being built upon Messiah Yeshua with him being the chief cornerstone. The Apostles are clearly saints that are built upon Yeshua. The OT prophets were not built upon Yeshua. They preceded him and proclaimed his coming and ministry, but they were not built upon him as part of this holy temple.

It seems to me that all the stones comprising this holy temple must be NT saints that have received Yeshua as Savior. They are then built upon him.

unto whom coming, a living stone, rejected indeed of men, but with God elect, precious,
ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ (Yeshua Messiah).
Because it is contained in scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.
For you therefore that believe is the preciousness: but for such as disbelieve, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner;
and, A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.1 Peter 2:4-10 ASV​

 

[Sinthesis]

Rev 21:10 - And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 - Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 - And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 - On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 - And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

 

[jocor]

Rev 21:10 - And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 - Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 - And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Rev 21:13 - On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 - And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This passage supports the Apostles as being the foundation of the city of New Jerusalem. I do not believe the temple referred to in Eph 2:21 is New Jerusalem based on Rev 21:22.

 

[JLB]

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (Ephesians 2:19-20 KJV)

One guy was seriously arguing that apostles and prophets are the local church but I strongly believe this scripture is not talking about local churches' apostles and prophets and their teaching and doctrines, protocols, etc, etc.

I have understood that 'apostles' is referred to new testament which is the reality and 'prophets' is referred to old testament which is the shadow and having Jesus Christ Himself the chief corner stone which is our primary belief - we are saved by grace through faith and anything built on our primary faith and then on the foundation of the New testament first and the old testament later.

Can any one counter me on this?

14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Revelation 21:14

The OT prophets who foretold of Christ, through His Spirit in them, are also included in this foundation, as well as the gates of the city being named after the twelve tribes of Israel.

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light waslike a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west. Revelation 21:10-13


The Local Church is not the foundation.

There will however, continue to be Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist's, Pastors and Teachers... till we all come to the fullness of the stature of Christ, in mature love and character, as well as power working abilities, expressed in wisdom.


11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:11-16



JLB

 

[JLB]

This passage supports the Apostles as being the foundation of the city of New Jerusalem. I do not believe the temple referred to in Eph 2:21 is New Jerusalem based on Rev 21:22.

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. Revelation 21:9-11


JLB

 

[jocor]

14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Revelation 21:14

The OT prophets who foretold of Christ, through His Spirit in them, are also included in this foundation, as well as the gates of the city being named after the twelve tribes of Israel.

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light waslike a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west. Revelation 21:10-13

First, gates are not foundations. Therefore, you are reading the OT prophets into the foundation of Rev 21:14. Second, the "prophets" spoken of in Eph 2:20 comprise the "temple" being built in and upon Yeshua (vs.21). It is not talking about the city of New Jerusalem.

 

[jocor]

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. Revelation 21:9-11


JLB

I agree the city is the Lamb's wife. What is your point?

 

[JLB]

First, gates are not foundations. Therefore, you are reading the OT prophets into the foundation of Rev 21:14. Second, the "prophets" spoken of in Eph 2:20 comprise the "temple" being built in and upon Yeshua (vs.21). It is not talking about the city of New Jerusalem.

The word "prophets" does not occur in the passage from Revelation 21, so I am "reading" prophets as being included as a part of this city.
Since the Twelve Tribes is a part of the city and the Prophets were from these tribes.

The 12 foundations of the wall of the city is included in the description of the city.

The wall of the city with it's gates are a part of the city, and are a part of the lamb's wife.

...she had a great and high wall... the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

What we do see is the description of the city being made up of the Lord's people, and associated with parts of this great City, which is a parabolic image of the Lamb's wife; The Bride, ie; The Church.

I would also "read into" this city, Abraham being a part of it's foundation, since he was the first member of the Church and a prophet, I would say He is surely a part of the foundation, though the word Abraham does not appear in Revelation 21.


JLB

 

[jocor]

The word "prophets" does not occur in the passage from Revelation 21, so I am "reading" prophets as being included as a part of this city.
Since the Twelve Tribes is a part of the city and the Prophets were from these tribes.

The 12 foundations of the wall of the city is included in the description of the city.

The wall of the city with it's gates are a part of the city, and are a part of the lamb's wife.

...she had a great and high wall... the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

What we do see is the description of the city being made up of the Lord's people, and associated with parts of this great City, which is a parabolic image of the Lamb's wife; The Bride, ie; The Church.

I would also "read into" this city, Abraham being a part of it's foundation, since he was the first member of the Church and a prophet, I would say He is surely a part of the foundation, though the word Abraham does not appear in Revelation 21.


JLB

If you choose to admittedly read your beliefs into the text, so be it. I choose to not do so. However, even if your belief is true, that the OT prophets are part of the city as the gates, that does NOT make them part of the foundation. It especially doesn't make them part of the foundation of the "temple" since the temple and the city are not the same.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Folks, one must first understand there is nothing save it is built on God! Without understanding the foundation is God all produced is heresy! Then there is the complete misunderstanding of what the Bible is.

Jesus, as per John 1:1-3, is 'the' creator God and the author of the Bible, Jesus taught from, Genesis trough Malachi and that is the Bible. Because the New Covenant and these later days New Testament Christians are so comfortable with lies the Bible Industry has made a very strong move to the left and away from Annotated Bibles like the Thompson Chain Reference, any version.

The biggest lie of this Church Movement is away from the Bible and to, exclusively, use the Commentaries... a horrible heretic idea. But if one will devote a few years to study, prayer and meditation, they can learn the Bible is the books, improperly known as the Old Testament but... nah, that is not likely to happen, folks are to lazy for that.

But, except we defeat the things spoken of in the first eighteen verses and then recall {21 in whom the whole building, fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you(P)also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.} it is impossible to even begin to understand what is being said here.

This is teaching us that we, together with the Prophets that pened the first 39 books of the Christian "Version" of the Words of God, are the Church. This book, all of it, is one of the twenty-seven God spoken Commentaries on the Old Testament and the principals taught in the Bible, Jesus taught from.

Always remember, the context of the Christian version of the Word of God runs, continuously from "In the beginning..." through "Amen! Yes, come, Lord Jesus," in the book of The Revelation of Jesus, the Christ. Only in this light can the Word of God begin to make sense.

 

[JLB]

If you choose to admittedly read your beliefs into the text, so be it. I choose to not do so. However, even if your belief is true, that the OT prophets are part of the city as the gates, that does NOT make them part of the foundation.

I choose to see that the Prophets of old, who spoke by the Spirit of Christ within them, are apart of the Church, who is the Bride of Christ, and is described in Revelation as the City of Jerusalem.

Just as the twelve tribes of Israel are a part of the same city as the Apostles.

Whether God's people are described as a temple or a city, it represents the dwelling place of God, who is described as The Temple within this magnificent city.

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. Revelation 21:22-23


JLB

 

[jocor]

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. Revelation 21:22-23

JLB

If the city is not the temple and there is no temple in it other than Yahweh and Yeshua, then their is no temple foundation related to New Jerusalem. The foundation spoken of in Eph 2:19-21 refers ONLY to the TEMPLE built upon and in Messiah Yeshua, not the CITY. The "prophets" are certainly not the foundation of Yahweh and Yeshua.

 

[jonahmano]

If the city is not the temple and there is no temple in it other than Yahweh and Yeshua, then their is no temple foundation related to New Jerusalem. The foundation spoken of in Eph 2:19-21 refers ONLY to the TEMPLE built upon and in Messiah Yeshua, not the CITY. The "prophets" are certainly not the foundation of Yahweh and Yeshua.

Which prophets are you referring to? It's easy for you to craftily quote scriptures to support your point. Can you name handful of prophets in the New Testament. My understanding of Ephesians 2:19 is unbiased. Wasn't Christ engraved in the hearts of David, Daniel, Isaiah.....

I know your point to link Ephesians 2:19-21 to a local church but that doesn't serve the purpose either.