Foundation of Apostles and Prophets - Is it the local church or the bible?

[Roro1972]

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (Ephesians 2:19-20 KJV)

One guy was seriously arguing that apostles and prophets are the local church but I strongly believe this scripture is not talking about local churches' apostles and prophets and their teaching and doctrines, protocols, etc, etc.

I have understood that 'apostles' is referred to new testament which is the reality and 'prophets' is referred to old testament which is the shadow and having Jesus Christ Himself the chief corner stone which is our primary belief - we are saved by grace through faith and anything built on our primary faith and then on the foundation of the New testament first and the old testament later.

Can any one counter me on this?

Im sure there are more qualified here than me. imo the prophets are OT and spoke of Jesus as in Jere 31:31
the apostles were hand picked by Jesus and only taught Jesus nothing of their self.

 

[Jim Parker]

Im sure there are more qualified here than me. imo the prophets are OT and spoke of Jesus as in Jere 31:31
the apostles were hand picked by Jesus and only taught Jesus nothing of their self.

Barnabas was an apostle who was not hand-picked by Jesus. (Act 14:14)
The word apostle means "one sent out". Today, missionaries are sent out to preach the gospel, some have signs, wonders and miracles in their ministries. They are our contemporary apostles.
There were NT prophets in the church. (Acts 21:8-9; 11:27-28) and Paul encouraged the believers in Corinth to prophesy. (1 Cor 14:31,39)
There are also a whole bunch of frauds who make good money pretending to be apostles and prophets while they entertain gullible believers.

 

[Malachi]

An apostle is one who is sent out. That's a missionary.

And that would make every missionary an apostle -- which is nonsensical. While apostolos does mean "sent one" there are very stringent criteria which must be met for a man to be called an "apostle".

In Scripture there are just twelve apostles (barring Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition) who will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel in the future, hence their names are written on the twelve foundations of the city wall surrounding the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:14). They are called "the twelve apostles of the Lamb".

The foundation laid by these apostles is the New Testament -- the Word of God. That is what builds up ("edifies") the Church. It is the preaching of the Word which is necessary for the perfecting (maturing or completing) of the saints. Hence we have evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Unfortunately, many today are departing from Scripture and turning to man-made teachings.

 

[Roro1972]

Barnabas was an apostle who was not hand-picked by Jesus. (Act 14:14)
The word apostle means "one sent out". Today, missionaries are sent out to preach the gospel, some have signs, wonders and miracles in their ministries. They are our contemporary apostles.
There were NT prophets in the church. (Acts 21:8-9; 11:27-28) and Paul encouraged the believers in Corinth to prophesy. (1 Cor 14:31,39)
There are also a whole bunch of frauds who make good money pretending to be apostles and prophets while they entertain gullible believers.

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (Ephesians 2:19-20 KJV)
I do not believe this verse is speaking of (Today, missionaries are sent out to preach the gospel, some have signs, wonders and miracles in their ministries. They are our contemporary apostles.)
The early Christians were built upon the 12 Apostles hand picked by Jesus that fact does not remove Barnabas as one.
I didn't see his book when read the word.

 

[Jim Parker]

And that would make every missionary an apostle -- which is nonsensical. While apostolos does mean "sent one" there are very stringent criteria which must be met for a man to be called an "apostle".

Why is that "nonsensical"?

In Scripture there are just twelve apostles (barring Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition) who will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel in the future, hence their names are written on the twelve foundations of the city wall surrounding the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:14). They are called "the twelve apostles of the Lamb".

Barnabas was called an apostle. (Act 14:14 again) He wasn't one of the twelve.

The foundation laid by these apostles is the New Testament -- the Word of God. That is what builds up ("edifies") the Church.

The subject is "apostles" not "foundation. You are con fusing the two.
And an apostle is a person, not a letter or a book.

It is the preaching of the Word which is necessary for the perfecting (maturing or completing) of the saints.

That's NOT what Paul said. He said God gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers for the edifying of the saints. Paul did NOT say, "God gave the preaching of the word for the edification of the saints." You aren't authorized to re-write scripture to fit your taste.

Hence we have evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Unfortunately, many today are departing from Scripture and turning to man-made teachings.

As you have done by eliminating from the word of God the words "apostles" and "prophets" from Paul's letter to the Ephesian church and imposing your (uninspired) personal opinion into what Paul wrote. You seem to think you are qualified to correct Paul and the scriptures. I don't think so.

 

[Jim Parker]

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (Ephesians 2:19-20 KJV)
I do not believe this verse is speaking of (Today, missionaries are sent out to preach the gospel, some have signs, wonders and miracles in their ministries. They are our contemporary apostles.)

I agree that verse is not speaking of missionaries today. But I believe Ephesians 4:11-13 (NIV)
"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."
In every generation, we need the people of God to be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Christ determined the personnel and equipment (TO&E) necessary to accomplish His purpose. We err whenever we decide we know better than Christ whether or not we need all that He has provided.

The early Christians were built upon the 12 Apostles hand picked by Jesus ....

We're no longer the early church but we have the same needs as the early church and there are billions of people who have not been taught the Gospel so that they might believe and be saved. It's a new era but nothing has changed. Multitudes are still going to hell because no apostle has preached to them and proved that they are sent from God by the miracles they do.

 

[Roro1972]

I agree that verse is not speaking of missionaries today. But I believe Ephesians 4:11-13 (NIV)
"So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."
In every generation, we need the people of God to be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Christ determined the personnel and equipment (TO&E) necessary to accomplish His purpose. We err whenever we decide we know better than Christ whether or not we need all that He has provided.

We're no longer the early church but we have the same needs as the early church and there are billions of people who have not been taught the Gospel so that they might believe and be saved. It's a new era but nothing has changed. Multitudes are still going to hell because no apostle has preached to them and proved that they are sent from God by the miracles they do.

The op said someone thought the verse applied to todays apostles. I replied to the op post with my thoughts. I still hold to my first post that verse did not mean todays apostles.and he disagreed.
any one who reads the Bible are getting the word from Jesus, and his Apostles of the day when he was on earth. And I will take that over any apostle I have seen in my life time.

 

[Jim Parker]

The op said someone thought the verse applied to todays apostles. I replied to the op post with my thoughts. I still hold to my first post that verse did not mean todays apostles.and he disagreed.
any one who reads the Bible are getting the word from Jesus, and his Apostles of the day when he was on earth. And I will take that over any apostle I have seen in my life time.

Anyone who reads the Bible gets his understanding of what Jesus and the apostles said. That understanding is not necessarily what they meant. That's why we have so many different opinions of what the same verses mean.
The good news is, when He comes, Jesus will not say, "Put your Bibles under your chair; take out a piece of paper and number from one to ten." We'll be judged by what we did or did not do, not our Bible knowledge. (See Mar 25:31-46)

 

[OzSpen]

Religion has always been a good business along with politics and prostitution.
Faith in God and submission to His good and loving will for us is another thing entirely.

A mouse in the cookie jar doesn't make the mouse a cookie and one broken down Ford doesn't make all Fords break down.

iakov the fool

 

[OzSpen]

And that would make every missionary an apostle -- which is nonsensical. While apostolos does mean "sent one" there are very stringent criteria which must be met for a man to be called an "apostle".

In Scripture there are just twelve apostles (barring Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition) who will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel in the future, hence their names are written on the twelve foundations of the city wall surrounding the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:14). They are called "the twelve apostles of the Lamb".

The foundation laid by these apostles is the New Testament -- the Word of God. That is what builds up ("edifies") the Church. It is the preaching of the Word which is necessary for the perfecting (maturing or completing) of the saints. Hence we have evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Unfortunately, many today are departing from Scripture and turning to man-made teachings.

Malachi,

You seem to be missing these apostles mentioned in the NT (that are not among the 12):

• James, the half brother of Jesus and leader of the Jerusalem church (Gal 1:19);
• Barnabas (Acts 14:14);
• Paul (Acts 14:14), plus a stream of other NT references affirming Paul's apostleship;
• Apollos (1 Cor 4:6-13);
• There are 2 unnamed brothers in 2 Cor 8:23, translated as 'messengers', but they are apostoloi (plural).
  
• Epaphroditus (Phil 2:25). The KJV and ESV translate the word as 'messenger' but it is apostolos = apostle.
• Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy (1 Thess 1:1; 2:6);
• Andronicus and Junia (Rom 16:7).

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

Anyone who reads the Bible gets his understanding of what Jesus and the apostles said. That understanding is not necessarily what they meant. That's why we have so many different opinions of what the same verses mean.
The good news is, when He comes, Jesus will not say, "Put your Bibles under your chair; take out a piece of paper and number from one to ten." We'll be judged by what we did or did not do, not our Bible knowledge. (See Mar 25:31-46)

OOOPS!!!
That's MATTHEW 25:31-46 not Mark.

 

[OzSpen]

OOOPS!!!
That's MATTHEW 25:31-46 not Mark.

Jim, after you have made a post, there is an option in the left-hand bottom of the screen that is titled 'Edit'. If you use that, you can change your Mark to Matthew and save the change. You can do that all without quoting your own post.

Oz