Foundation of Apostles and Prophets - Is it the local church or the bible?

[jocor]

Which prophets are you referring to?

I was referring to the OT prophets. However, not even the NT prophets are the foundation of Yahweh and Yeshua. Yahweh has no foundation.

It's easy for you to craftily quote scriptures to support your point.

Why do you say "craftily"? Are you suggesting that I am purposely trying to deceive people or manipulate scripture?

Can you name handful of prophets in the New Testament.

Agabus (Acts 11:27); Barnabas, Simeon, Lucius, Manaen, and Saul (Paul) (Acts 13:1); Judas and Silas (Acts 15:32). NT prophets were the second most important office held by believers (1 Co 12:28).

My understanding of Ephesians 2:19 is unbiased. Wasn't Christ engraved in the hearts of David, Daniel, Isaiah.....

They undoubtedly looked forward to his coming and prophesied about him, but they cannot be a foundation of the NT temple being built upon Yeshua. David can be a root of Yeshua, but not a foundation built on him.

I know your point to link Ephesians 2:19-21 to a local church but that doesn't serve the purpose either.

I am not trying to link it to a "local church". I am linking it to the universal Body of Messiah.

 

[Malachi]

One guy was seriously arguing that apostles and prophets are the local church but I strongly believe this scripture is not talking about local churches' apostles and prophets and their teaching and doctrines, protocols, etc, etc.

You are correct. The foundation of the apostles and prophets is Scripture, with the New Testament corresponding to "the apostles", and the OT to "the prophets". They are foundational because their writings are divinely inspired, hence inerrant and infallible. So-called apostles and prophets today are false apostles and false prophets.

 

[Deborah13]

who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.1 Peter 2:4-10 ASV

Eph 2:19 Then, therefore, ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God,

I am not trying to link it to a "local church". I am linking it to the universal Body of Messiah.

Eph 2:22 in whom also ye are builded together, for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

Joh 10:16 and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock--one shepherd.

 

[smaller]

I have understood that 'apostles' is referred to new testament which is the reality and 'prophets' is referred to old testament

Can any one counter me on this?

Kind of an odd slant.

There are various methods and marks to determine the legitimacy of any claimants to the positions that are provided by the scriptures. One here for example:

Galatians 6:17
From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

I might term it pattern recognition.

There are "steps" into discipleship and also "steps" into Apostleship. Apostles are always disciples first for example.

The clearest sign of Apostleship is here:

Acts 2:43
And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Generally speaking from observation I'd have to say most of the positions have largely fallen by the wayside currently, at least in my lifetime and I'd suggest that's been the case for quite some time. Regardless of what claims claimants make, without the attendant requirements.

Although I do think this can change, in a hurry. I saw some interesting things in the early stages of charismania, but it was quickly quenched.

 

[smaller]

You are correct. The foundation of the apostles and prophets is Scripture, with the New Testament corresponding to "the apostles", and the OT to "the prophets". They are foundational because their writings are divinely inspired, hence inerrant and infallible. So-called apostles and prophets today are false apostles and false prophets.

True, but I think the opening poster was seeing the prophets as the "old testament" and the Apostles as the "new testament."

They were people that were built on the foundation.

 

[smaller]

The OT prophets were not built upon Yeshua. They preceded him and proclaimed his coming and ministry, but they were not built upon him as part of this holy temple.

Unlikely premise on a basic count.

It was God in Christ who spoke through them. See 1 Peter 1:10-11 for a shining example. And there are other similar examples.

 

[Roro1972]

I agree that in Ephesians 2:19-20 the apostles and prophets in general terms relate to teaching that we have available to us in the new and old testaments respectively. Personally, I don't believe anyone today should take for themselves the title of apostle or prophet. They, at best, seem like poor imitations of the very real biblical characters. At worst, frauds.

2Co 11:12 - But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Co 11:13 - For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.​

Very well said I agree.

 

[Jim Parker]

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (Ephesians 2:19-20 KJV)
One guy was seriously arguing that apostles and prophets are the local church but I strongly believe this scripture is not talking about local churches' apostles and prophets and their teaching and doctrines, protocols, etc, etc.

I have understood that 'apostles' is referred to new testament which is the reality and 'prophets' is referred to old testament which is the shadow and having Jesus Christ Himself the chief corner stone which is our primary belief - we are saved by grace through faith and anything built on our primary faith and then on the foundation of the New testament first and the old testament later.

Can any one counter me on this?

It seems very strange to me that you could somehow come to the conclusion that the word "apostles" would not mean "apostles" and the word "prophets" would not mean "prophets."

Another passage from the same book of Ephesians tells us: ( Eph 4:11- 16 NKJV) And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Jesus put apostles and prophets in the church (along with evangelists, pastors, and teachers) to build up the believers until we become just like Jesus. (to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ)

Those apostles and prophets are people, not scripture.

 

[Malachi]

Those apostles and prophets are people, not scripture.

Of course they are people, but people long gone. What they left behind is what sustains us. The apostles left behind the New Testament, and the prophets the Old Testament. So today "apostles and prophets" represents the written Word of God. Those who claim to be apostles and prophets today are false. The spiritual gifts which are currently active are evangelists, pastors, and teachers, and all of them depend on the Bible, and must be scrutinized in the light of Scripture. If they present Bible truth, they are faithful. If not, they are unfaithful.

 

[Jim Parker]

Of course they are people, but people long gone. What they left behind is what sustains us. The apostles left behind the New Testament, and the prophets the Old Testament. So today "apostles and prophets" represents the written Word of God. Those who claim to be apostles and prophets today are false. The spiritual gifts which are currently active are evangelists, pastors, and teachers, and all of them depend on the Bible, and must be scrutinized in the light of Scripture. If they present Bible truth, they are faithful. If not, they are unfaithful.

AH! I see.
If you please, could you cite for me the passage(s) in the sola scriptura that say(s) the New Testament is all we need to sustain us and the offices of apostle and prophet are no longer active in the churh. I can't seem to find them.

 

[Sinthesis]

I would be interested in knowing the names of any true apostles or prophets currently active in the church.

1Co 15:3 - For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 - And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5 - And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 - After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 - After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 - And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1Co 15:9 - For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.​

Paul here seems to imply he is the last (and of course least) of the apostles, with every other apostle a witness of the risen Christ before him.

 

[Malachi]

AH! I see.
If you please, could you cite for me the passage(s) in the sola scriptura that say(s) the New Testament is all we need to sustain us and the offices of apostle and prophet are no longer active in the churh. I can't seem to find them.

You missed the Old Testament. Both testaments are sufficient (2 Tim 3:16,17). As to apostles and prophets not being active in the Church (following the demise of the apostles), all you have to do is read the Early Church Fathers. Not one of them laid claim to the office of apostle or prophet.

 

[Malachi]

Paul here seems to imply he is the last (and of course least) of the apostles, with every other apostle a witness of the risen Christ before him.

To be an apostle, this was a critical requirement. They were also all personally taught by the Lord (including Paul). Anyone claiming to be an apostle today (and there are a few) is a phony.

 

[Jim Parker]

I would be interested in knowing the names of any true apostles or prophets currently active in the church.

Go to any church that sends out missionaries and ask them for their names. They are apostles.

1Co 15:3 - For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 - And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5 - And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 - After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 - After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 - And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1Co 15:9 - For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.​

Paul here seems to imply he is the last (and of course least) of the apostles, with every other apostle a witness of the risen Christ before him.

That is what you infer, not what Paul implied.

In fact, in that passage, Paul's purpose was to was affirm that Christ is risen from the dead. HE wasn't talking about how many apostles there could be or would be and there is nothing at all in the chapter which could reasonably be construed to suggest that Paul meant to teach that there were no more apostles after him.

 

[Jim Parker]

You missed the Old Testament. Both testaments are sufficient (2 Tim 3:16,17). As to apostles and prophets not being active in the Church (following the demise of the apostles), all you have to do is read the Early Church Fathers. Not one of them laid claim to the office of apostle or prophet.

Probably because they were monks, deacons, presbyters and bishops and not apostles or prophets.
The fact that people occupying those offices did not claim to be other than what they were does not say anything about the continuing offices of apostle and prophet. That is called "arguing from silence." It proves nothing.
2Ti 3:16 (RSV) All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
So what? That does not say anything about the offices of prophet and apostle being eliminated and the scripture to which Paul was referring was the Old Testament as the New had not yet been completed.

 

[Malachi]

...and the scripture to which Paul was referring was the Old Testament as the New had not yet been completed.

1. Paul was a prophet as well as an apostle.
2. The bulk of the NT had already been written by the time 2 Timothy was penned, so prophetically the entire Bible was in view.
3. "All Scripture" means all Scripture, not just the OT.
4. Peter called ALL of Paul's epistles Scripture, alongside the OT, and that is already over half the NT.
5. Upon the completion of the NT and the demise of the apostles there were no other apostles and prophets.
6. The silence of the ECF speaks eloquently about the termination of those two offices. Had those gifts continued, surely something would have been mentioned by the ECF.
7. If you are looking for apostles and prophets today, you will surely find them, and they will surely lead you astray.

 

[Jim Parker]

1. Paul was a prophet as well as an apostle.
2. The bulk of the NT had already been written by the time 2 Timothy was penned, so prophetically the entire Bible was in view.

Edited. Let's be nice and not get personal!

3. "All Scripture" means all Scripture, not just the OT.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Paul considered his writings to be scripture.

4. Peter called ALL of Paul's epistles Scripture, alongside the OT, and that is already over half the NT.

That is one way to look at it. Where in the NT does anyone quote Paul?
They don't. When they quote "scripture", they quote the Old Testament.

5. Upon the completion of the NT and the demise of the apostles there were no other apostles and prophets.

Sez WHO??? You???

6. The silence of the ECF speaks eloquently about the termination of those two offices. Had those gifts continued, surely something would have been mentioned by the ECF.

"SIlence" does not speak at all. An argument from silence is an argument based on nothing.

7. If you are looking for apostles and prophets today, you will surely find them, and they will surely lead you astray.

An apostle is one who is sent out. That's a missionary.

 

[WIP]

1. Paul was a prophet as well as an apostle.
2. The bulk of the NT had already been written by the time 2 Timothy was penned, so prophetically the entire Bible was in view.
3. "All Scripture" means all Scripture, not just the OT.
4. Peter called ALL of Paul's epistles Scripture, alongside the OT, and that is already over half the NT.
5. Upon the completion of the NT and the demise of the apostles there were no other apostles and prophets.
6. The silence of the ECF speaks eloquently about the termination of those two offices. Had those gifts continued, surely something would have been mentioned by the ECF.
7. If you are looking for apostles and prophets today, you will surely find them, and they will surely lead you astray.

Please include source references when posting as requested by the Forum Guidelines.

 

[OzSpen]

You are correct. The foundation of the apostles and prophets is Scripture, with the New Testament corresponding to "the apostles", and the OT to "the prophets". They are foundational because their writings are divinely inspired, hence inerrant and infallible. So-called apostles and prophets today are false apostles and false prophets.

Malachi,

That's a cessationist perspective. However, in the divinely inspired Scripture, we find that apostles and prophets continue and are needed for the church of all ages. Why?

And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes (Eph 4:11-14 ESV).

Until Jesus returns, we will need

• the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry,
  
• building up the body of Christ,
• pursuit of the unity of the faith,
• obtaining further knowledge of the Son of God,
• to become mature people,
• to attain the measure of the fullness of Christ,
• And the purpose is that Christians will not be tossed about by every wind of doctrine, that includes
• human cunning and crafty deceitful schemes.

To attain this growth and equipping, we need the full range of the ministry gifts of Christ for the church - continuing apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

These are the continuing ministry gifts of this nature and not the foundational apostles and prophets that led to the writing of NT Scripture. These foundational apostles and prophets wrote in the NT that we would need such ministry gifts. For how long? As long as the church is in existence where saints need to be equipped to mature and deal with false doctrine.

That said, I find that there are those who exalt their 'prophetic gifts' on the world's stage. However, extreme manifestations do not negate the need for the genuine gifts. A broken down Ford vehicle doesn't make Ford a useless make.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

I find that there are those who exalt their 'prophetic gifts' on the world's stage.

Religion has always been a good business along with politics and prostitution.
Faith in God and submission to His good and loving will for us is another thing entirely.

However, extreme manifestations do not negate the need for the genuine gifts. A broken down Ford vehicle doesn't make Ford a useless make.

A mouse in the cookie jar doesn't make the mouse a cookie and one broken down Ford doesn't make all Fords break down.

iakov the fool