Free will or no free will?

[Heidi]

The thread on free will kind of got side-tracked onto a different tangent so I thought I'd initiate a thread about the specific issue of free will.

When planning and creating the universe there can only be 2 options on how it would go:

1) The notion that some people were simply born smarter, more pure and intelligent to choose God and the rest were just too stupid and wicked not to.

or: 2) We are all in the same boat, none better than another and only God chooses who will come to him and gives us the pwoer to do his will.

The second option is the only equitable system because it:

1) Eliminates boasting because salvation is a gift from God based on God's election not good works as Romans 9:11-25 tells us
2) Since none of us knows who is elected, salvation is open to anyone who wants it and we are all accountable for our desires
3) It isn't the truth that some of us are better than others. That comes from the sin of pride.
4) It breeds humility and thankfulness that we were given a gift that we know we didn't deserve
5) It shows God's power and soveriegn choice, not ours

So do we have free will? No. We can only respond to what rules us. If we are being drawn by God, then he will make sure we come to him. This is illustrated through Jacob who actually wrestled with God, that is...until God broke his hip. It is also illustrated through Paul's conversion when he no more asked Jesus to come into his life than Jacob did.

So the propensity for man to try to take credit for his faith is disspelled by Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 9:11-25. Faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast."

And: Romans 3:11, "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." Only the Holy Spirit gives us the pwoer and desire to seek God as 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us. So those tempted to blame unbelievers for their unbelief are forgetting that it's only by the grace of God that they themselves were chosen. :wink: That breeds thankfulness and humility rather than boasting and judgment.

And contrary to the thinking of many people, no one has the power to resist God's will because no one is stronger than God, not even Satan. In Matthew chapter 20 Jesus illustrates the paprable of the worker where an employer (God) has the right to decide how he will pay and treat his employess even though humans think we can decide what's fair or not. : Romans 9:11-25 also makes the same point that only God is soveriegn.

So God's plan in option 2 is the only equitable system because it leaves human desire and power out of it. It also makes us all equal before God and breeds humility rather than pride and most iportantly, makes salvation open to anyone who wants it because none of us knows who God's elect are.

 

[lovely]

Hi Heidi,

Romans 9 came to my mind when I read the title of your thread, and then I saw that you referenced it. I just wanted to quote it for easy viewing. The Lord bless you.

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
All the seed of Abraham were not the children of the promise
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
The calling of the Gentiles foretold
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[Drew]

When planning and creating the universe there can only be 2 options on how it would go:

1) The notion that some people were simply born smarter, more pure and intelligent to choose God and the rest were just too stupid and wicked not to.

or: 2) We are all in the same boat, none better than another and only God chooses who will come to him and gives us the pwoer to do his will.

The second option is the only equitable system because it:

1) Eliminates boasting because salvation is a gift from God based on God's election not good works as Romans 9:11-25 tells us

This presumes that the act of accepting a gift is a "work". I have always found this to be extremely questionable and at variance with how we normally think about things. If a bedridden man in a burning building cries out for assistance from firemen, would we think that the rescuing of the man is the result of this work? I submit that we would definitely think of the situation in this way. We would say that the salvation of the man is the work of the fireman.

2) Since none of us knows who is elected, salvation is open to anyone who wants it and we are all accountable for our desires
3)

Not correct. If God chooses Fred and does not choose Joe, the fact that we do not know that this is the case does not mean that salvation is open to Joe.

 

[Guest]

Acts 2:22-24
22"Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

24"But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.


I believe Peter's sermon can answer the question about God's soveirgnty and man's "free will" (I will use this term for the sake of the OP).

Notice in verse 23 that Peter's says that Jesus was delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God. This clearly shows that God is soveirgn - that God is in complete control - through God's predetermined and foreknowledge, Jesus was handed over to death.

However - this is not excuse away man's responsibility. Peter continues on to say - "you nailed him to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."

Here - Peter puts the responsibility squarly on the shoulders of where it belongs - The Men of Israel (verse 23). It was them (you) that nailed Jesus to the cross, through the hands of the godless, and put Him to death.

Therefore, God's foreknowledge and will does use the godless. God's foreknowledge does not excuse away our responsibility. We are still active participants. God's foreknowledge is not a script that we unknowingly play out.

God - still holds that last card - in verse 24 it was God who "raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power."

 

[Guest]

The thread on free will kind of got side-tracked onto a different tangent so I thought I'd initiate a thread about the specific issue of free will.

When planning and creating the universe there can only be 2 options on how it would go:

1) The notion that some people were simply born smarter, more pure and intelligent to choose God and the rest were just too stupid and wicked not to.

or: 2) We are all in the same boat, none better than another and only God chooses who will come to him and gives us the pwoer to do his will.

Are you saying God had only two options? His ways are higher than our ways, His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

When planning and creating a Universe - I will leave it up to God - I think he has a better idea on how to do it.

 

[jgredline]

2 Cor 8:3 For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own free will,

Philem 14 but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness • might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.

2 cor 8:16 But thanks be to God who puts the same earnest care for you into the heart of Titus. 17 For he not only accepted the exhortation, but being more diligent, he went to you of his own accord

Here Paul uses the Greek word ἑκούσιος that means free will, voluntarily, of your own accord......

 

[stranger]

The thread on free will kind of got side-tracked onto a different tangent so I thought I'd initiate a thread about the specific issue of free will.

When planning and creating the universe there can only be 2 options on how it would go:

1) The notion that some people were simply born smarter, more pure and intelligent to choose God and the rest were just too stupid and wicked not to.

or: 2) We are all in the same boat, none better than another and only God chooses who will come to him and gives us the pwoer to do his will.

The second option is the only equitable system because it:

1) Eliminates boasting because salvation is a gift from God based on God's election not good works as Romans 9:11-25 tells us
2) Since none of us knows who is elected, salvation is open to anyone who wants it and we are all accountable for our desires
3) It isn't the truth that some of us are better than others. That comes from the sin of pride.
4) It breeds humility and thankfulness that we were given a gift that we know we didn't deserve
5) It shows God's power and soveriegn choice, not ours

So do we have free will? No. We can only respond to what rules us. If we are being drawn by God, then he will make sure we come to him. This is illustrated through Jacob who actually wrestled with God, that is...until God broke his hip. It is also illustrated through Paul's conversion when he no more asked Jesus to come into his life than Jacob did.

So the propensity for man to try to take credit for his faith is disspelled by Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 9:11-25. Faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast."

And: Romans 3:11, "there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God." Only the Holy Spirit gives us the pwoer and desire to seek God as 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us. So those tempted to blame unbelievers for their unbelief are forgetting that it's only by the grace of God that they themselves were chosen. :wink: That breeds thankfulness and humility rather than boasting and judgment.

And contrary to the thinking of many people, no one has the power to resist God's will because no one is stronger than God, not even Satan. In Matthew chapter 20 Jesus illustrates the paprable of the worker where an employer (God) has the right to decide how he will pay and treat his employess even though humans think we can decide what's fair or not. : Romans 9:11-25 also makes the same point that only God is soveriegn.

So God's plan in option 2 is the only equitable system because it leaves human desire and power out of it. It also makes us all equal before God and breeds humility rather than pride and most iportantly, makes salvation open to anyone who wants it because none of us knows who God's elect are.

Good OP.

While I believe in election and predestination, I don't believe that the Calvinist can furnish the certainty of his/ her election by all the arguments I have heard so far including - how do we know that we are lect - by perservering.

 

[stranger]

This presumes that the act of accepting a gift is a "work". I have always found this to be extremely questionable and at variance with how we normally think about things. If a bedridden man in a burning building cries out for assistance from firemen, would we think that the rescuing of the man is the result of this work? I submit that we would definitely think of the situation in this way. We would say that the salvation of the man is the work of the fireman.

Hi Drew,

You need to develope this illustration about the fireman - what about those who are unable to call for help, and perhaps those who have gone the wrong way confused by the smoke and flames. And the classic case where people have to jump down on that trampoline device supported by the fireman. . .

So from this illustration there are: those who can't rescue themselves cf with those who cooperate with being rescued and perhaps - madness- those who don't want to be rescued.

 

[Heidi]

Hi Heidi,

Romans 9 came to my mind when I read the title of your thread, and then I saw that you referenced it. I just wanted to quote it for easy viewing. The Lord bless you.

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
All the seed of Abraham were not the children of the promise
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
The calling of the Gentiles foretold
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Amen. Romans 9 is powerful stuff. Thanks for your post.

 

[Heidi]

Good OP.

While I believe in election and predestination, I don't believe that the Calvinist can furnish the certainty of his/ her election by all the arguments I have heard so far including - how do we know that we are lect - by perservering.

I knew that I was elected only after I received the Holy Spirit. The difference was like night and day. But you are correct. We know who is born of God and who isn't by who perserveres.

 

[Guest]

2 Cor 8:3 For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own free will,

But as you continue to read, verse 5 says: "and this, not as we had excepted, but they first gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will of God."

I would suggest, as I pointed out from Acts - there is a both/and. God is soverign, AND we have a will. I would argue that our will is not free - but that our will has physical, emotional, and spiritiual limitations.

Philem 14 but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness • might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.

Is it possible that Paul is in effect saying: Philemon, I could tell you what to do, I could tell you what the right thing to do, however, I will "let" it up to you to decide. Because Paul then goes on in 15ff to explain why this might have happened: "For perhaps he was for this reason seperated from you for a while, that you would have him back forever, not longer as a slave, but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord."

verse 8-9 bear out my suggestion: "Therefore, though I have enough confidence in Christ to order you to do what is proper, yet for love's sake I rather appeal to you - since I am such a person as Paul, the aged, and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus."

2 cor 8:16 But thanks be to God who puts the same earnest care for you into the heart of Titus. 17 For he not only accepted the exhortation, but being more diligent, he went to you of his own accord

Doesn't verse 16 says that it is God who puts the 'earnestness" into the heart of Titus?



Here Paul uses the Greek word ἑκούσιος that means free will, voluntarily, of your own accord......[/quote]

 

[ChristineES]

We do have free will. We can choose to follow God or we can choose to be separated from God. We have choices, each option of each choice has a different outcome and God knows what each outcome will be, even with hundreds of options.

As parents, we know that if our child keeps climbing up on the table, he may eventually fall. We keep telling the child not to climb up. If he chooses to listen, then he will not fall. If the child chooses to climb up and ignore his parents' warnings, there is a chance he will fall off. That is a simplistic example but I hope I made my opinion clear.

 

[Heidi]

We do have free will. We can choose to follow God or we can choose to be separated from God. We have choices, each option of each choice has a different outcome and God knows what each outcome will be, even with hundreds of options.

As parents, we know that if our child keeps climbing up on the table, he may eventually fall. We keep telling the child not to climb up. If he chooses to listen, then he will not fall. If the child chooses to climb up and ignore his parents' warnings, there is a chance he will fall off. That is a simplistic example but I hope I made my opinion clear.

Sorry, but Jesus said; "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."

"You did not choose me I chose you."

"Only the Father knows the Son and the Son knows the Father and those to whom the Son choose to reveal him."

"For many are invited but few are chosen."

"I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me for they were yours."

Do you not believe Jesus here? :o

Do you also not believe Romans 9:11?

So sorry, but our opinions and beliefs don't determine what's true, only the word of God does.

 

[Guest]

Heidi - would you be so kind to answer the questions I posed to you in regards to the OP and the "planning of creation"

Thank you - I am interested in knowing why you believe there are only two options as you stated.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi - would you be so kind to answer the questions I posed to you in regards to the OP and the "planning of creation"

Thank you - I am interested in knowing why you believe there are only two options as you stated.

Which questions, Alone? I don't respond to every post because I don't have time to look for every post. So I do not deliberately ignore any post unless all they contain are personal flames, which doesn't happen very often on this forum. So please show me which questions.

There can only be 2 options becaus all that exists who have the ability to think are humans and God. So either humans make the decisions of the universe or God does. And of course, the bible clearly says that God does. So His choices and decisions are sovereign. So God isn't just omniscient in having foreknowledge, he is omnipotent also meaning that he acts upon his choices.

 

[ChristineES]

Heidi, I am bit offended that you questioned my Christianity and belief in Jesus because my opinion was different than yours. Please in the future can you refrain from personal remarks about other's salvation.

Having Jesus draw people to believe in Him is not the same thing as not having free will. People choose not to believe in God and Jesus all the time. It is a choice. I chose to believe in God.

Here is a thought: I read a book once where a girl was raped and she thought God was punishing her. If God was punishing this girl, you would have to believe that God caused someone to rape this girl. There is no way I can believe for one second that God would cause a girl to be raped. The man who attacked her wasn't acting with God but without him. It was his choice to defile this poor girl and she was the one to suffer, but God was not punishing her by any means.

 

[Heidi]

Heidi, I am bit offended that you questioned my Christianity and belief in Jesus because my opinion was different than yours. Please in the future can you refrain from personal remarks about other's salvation.

Having Jesus draw people to believe in Him is not the same thing as not having free will. People choose not to believe in God and Jesus all the time. It is a choice. I chose to believe in God.

Here is a thought: I read a book once where a girl was raped and she thought God was punishing her. If God was punishing this girl, you would have to believe that God caused someone to rape this girl. There is no way I can believe for one second that God would cause a girl to be raped. The man who attacked her wasn't acting with God but without him. It was his choice to defile this poor girl and she was the one to suffer, but God was not punishing her by any means.

1 Corinthians 2:14, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot udnerstand them because they are Spiritually discerned.

2 Corinthians 4:4 "For the god of this age has blinded the eyes of unbelievers so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

If you believed the bible then you would know that unbelievers cannot understand God, much less choose something they don't see or understand, as the above verses tell us.

So no, man cannot choose to believe in God any more than he can choose not to sin. Then he wouldn't need Jesus for a thing. So if you want opinions that contradict the bible, that's your perrogative. But I will always stand up for the word of God whether others like it or not.

 

[Diolectic]

What is it about a god who makes demands on the helpless?

For those who think that, if one chooses of his own volition to be saved, that he has something to boast about:
A starving man does not glory in his choice to eat a meal that was given him.

I know for a fact that it is truly humbling to receive a gift even when I need it. I do not glory in choosing it, I'd rather not choose, but my need compels me to choose to take it. The choice is not to glory in but to "abase" in.

Does God demand all men to repent?
Does God demand all men to have faith in Him?(1John 3:23)

For God to demand faith and repentance to ones whom HE will not give to & of who do not have, is like a tyrant demanding an armless & legless man to get dressed while he has no clothes to dress with at he same time condemning him for not complying with his demands while he has the clothes for the one whom he demands to dress with.

 

[Heidi]

For those who think that, if one chooses of his own volition to be saved, that he has something to boast about:
A starving man does not glory in his choice to eat a meal that was given him.

Great analogy.

 

[Veritas]

1) The notion that some people were simply born smarter, more pure and intelligent to choose God and the rest were just too stupid and wicked not to.

or: 2) We are all in the same boat, none better than another and only God chooses who will come to him and gives us the pwoer to do his will.

I believe in a variant of the 2nd.

3) We are all in the same boat, none better than another and God desires all to come to Him and do His will, but some don't.

I do not seek to answer "why?".

...its not that the lost are more stupid or wicked than I in God's eyes.

...its not for lack of God trying.

I realize that this is not logical, but I believe logic is not all there is. I trust God will reveal this when we meet Him face to face. I suspect this all has to do with Love...can't really explain that either.

By the way, I like that analogy Heidi.