Free will or no free will?

[Bubba]

Summary of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation


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By John Piper December 10, 1997


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Salvation is not finally in the hands of man to determine. His choices are crucial, but they are not the final, decisive power in bringing him to glory, God’s sovereign grace is.

1. God elects, chooses, before the foundation of the world whom he will save and whom he will pass by and leave to unbelief and sin and rebellion. He does this unconditionally, not on the basis of foreseen faith that humans produce by a supposed power of ultimate self-determination (= “free willâ€Â).

Acts 13:48, “When the gentiles heard this they were glad and glorified the word of God. And as many as were for ordained to eternal life believed.â€Â

Romans 11:7, “Israel failed to obtain what is sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened.â€Â

John 6:37, “All that the Father gives to me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out.†John 17:6, “I have manifested my name to them whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me.†(John 6:44, 65).

2. The Atonement applies to the elect in a unique, particular way, although the death of Christ is sufficient to propitiate the sins of the whole world. The death of Christ effectually accomplished the salvation for all God’s people.

Eph. 5:25, “Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.â€Â

Heb. 10:14, “By a single offering he perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.â€Â

John 10:15, “I lay down my life for the sheep.â€Â

Rom. 8:32, “He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how shall he not with him freely give us all things?â€Â

3. Because of the Fall, humans are incapable of any saving good apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. We are helpless and dead in sin. We have a mindset that “cannot submit to God without divine enabling.

Rom. 8:7-8, “The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, it does not submit to God’s law; indeed it cannot. But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.â€Â

Eph. 2:1,5, “You were dead through your trespasses and sins.â€Â

4. God’s call to salvation is effectual, and, hence His grace cannot be ultimately thwarted by human resistance. God’s regenerating call can overcome all human resistance.

Acts 16:14, “The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul.â€Â

John 6:65, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by my Father.†(Matt. 16:17; Luke 10:21)

1 Cor. 1:23-24, “We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God.â€Â

5. Those whom God calls and regenerates He also keeps, so that they do not totally and finally fall away from faith and grace.

Rom. 8:30, “Those whom he predestined, he also called and those whom he called he also justified and those whom he justified he also glorified.â€Â

John 10:27-29, “My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me; and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.â€Â

Phil. 1:6, “I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ Jesus.†(1 Cor. 1:8).

1 Thess. 5:23, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Chrt. He who calls you is faithful and he will do it.â€Â

Conclusion

Romans 11:36, “From him, through him, and to him are all things, to him be glory forever amen!â€Â


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© Desiring God

 

[Heidi]

Summary of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By John Piper December 10, 1997


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Salvation is not finally in the hands of man to determine. His choices are crucial, but they are not the final, decisive power in bringing him to glory, God’s sovereign grace is.

1. God elects, chooses, before the foundation of the world whom he will save and whom he will pass by and leave to unbelief and sin and rebellion. He does this unconditionally, not on the basis of foreseen faith that humans produce by a supposed power of ultimate self-determination (= “free willâ€Â).

Acts 13:48, “When the gentiles heard this they were glad and glorified the word of God. And as many as were for ordained to eternal life believed.â€Â

Romans 11:7, “Israel failed to obtain what is sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened.â€Â

John 6:37, “All that the Father gives to me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out.†John 17:6, “I have manifested my name to them whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me.†(John 6:44, 65).

2. The Atonement applies to the elect in a unique, particular way, although the death of Christ is sufficient to propitiate the sins of the whole world. The death of Christ effectually accomplished the salvation for all God’s people.

Eph. 5:25, “Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.â€Â

Heb. 10:14, “By a single offering he perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.â€Â

John 10:15, “I lay down my life for the sheep.â€Â

Rom. 8:32, “He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how shall he not with him freely give us all things?â€Â

3. Because of the Fall, humans are incapable of any saving good apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. We are helpless and dead in sin. We have a mindset that “cannot submit to God without divine enabling.

Rom. 8:7-8, “The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, it does not submit to God’s law; indeed it cannot. But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.â€Â

Eph. 2:1,5, “You were dead through your trespasses and sins.â€Â

4. God’s call to salvation is effectual, and, hence His grace cannot be ultimately thwarted by human resistance. God’s regenerating call can overcome all human resistance.

Acts 16:14, “The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul.â€Â

John 6:65, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by my Father.†(Matt. 16:17; Luke 10:21)

1 Cor. 1:23-24, “We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God.â€Â

5. Those whom God calls and regenerates He also keeps, so that they do not totally and finally fall away from faith and grace.

Rom. 8:30, “Those whom he predestined, he also called and those whom he called he also justified and those whom he justified he also glorified.â€Â

John 10:27-29, “My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me; and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.â€Â

Phil. 1:6, “I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ Jesus.†(1 Cor. 1:8).

1 Thess. 5:23, “May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who lls you is faithful and he will do it.â€Â

Conclusion

Romans 11:36, “From him, through him, and to him are all things, to him be glory forever amen!â€Â


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© Desiring God

Amen! :D

 

[Diolectic]

1. God elects, chooses, before the foundation of the world whom he will save and whom he will pass by and leave to unbelief and sin and rebellion. He does this unconditionally, not on the basis of foreseen faith that humans produce by a supposed power of ultimate self-determination (= “free willâ€Â).

Thid denies man's choice by figuring that if man had free will to choose his own destiny, it would diminish God's sovereignty.
This doctrine figures that if God gives an authority to man as "freedom to choose" or "even free" will it would diminish His sovereignty or He would not have any ability to perform his own will over that of mans.

While in reality, Free will magnifies God's sovereignty by showing His ability to have government over what man has authority of.

God Also limits Himself with a finite creation and give creation a part in His over all plan.
The elect is allways according to His God's foreknowledge(1Peter 1:2)
That is God's foreknowledge of our future desision.

For example:
I know my wife would choose "Red Lobster" over another restaurant if it was in the choice.
I would plan on taking her there and make reservations before she made the choice.
I didn't ask my wife before I planed, but I did ask her afterwards.

As for salvation:
God know us so well that He know from before the foundation of the world that we would accept His offer of salvation.

 

[Bubba]

Thid denies man's choice by figuring that if man had free will to choose his own destiny, it would diminish God's sovereignty.
This doctrine figures that if God gives an authority to man as "freedom to choose" or "even free" will it would diminish His sovereignty or He would not have any ability to perform his own will over that of mans.

While in reality, Free will magnifies God's sovereignty by showing His ability to have government over what man has authority of.

God Also limits Himself with a finite creation and give creation a part in His over all plan.
The elect is allways according to His God's foreknowledge(1Peter 1:2)
That is God's foreknowledge of our future desision.

For example:
I know my wife would choose "Red Lobster" over another restaurant if it was in the choice.
I would plan on taking her there and make reservations before she made the choice.
I didn't ask my wife before I planed, but I did ask her afterwards.

As for salvation:
God know us so well that He know from before the foundation of the world that we would accept His offer of salvation.

If God looked into the future to ascertain if we would say yes to Jesus, He would see a mass of humanity spiritually dead and not interested in one iota about God's Son Jesus (Ephesians 2:1-9).
Until God makes us alive to that which is Spiritual, we will not seek Him (Romans 3:11). Thankfully, before the foundation of the earth God out of His own good pleasure, not ours, decided to covenant with a people, the elect (Ephesians 1:1-11). The rest He left in their sins. If you want to argue with God about His system of salvation, you will be in good company. Paul already has verses for you to ruminate on in Romans 9:14-24, pay special attention to verse 24, if like many, you believe this only about ethnic Jews.
For further "fuel for the fire", read Acts 13:48 and Proverbs 16:4, remember it's God not you who decides.
Bubba

 

[Heidi]

Thid denies man's choice by figuring that if man had free will to choose his own destiny, it would diminish God's sovereignty.
This doctrine figures that if God gives an authority to man as "freedom to choose" or "even free" will it would diminish His sovereignty or He would not have any ability to perform his own will over that of mans.

While in reality, Free will magnifies God's sovereignty by showing His ability to have government over what man has authority of.

God Also limits Himself with a finite creation and give creation a part in His over all plan.
The elect is allways according to His God's foreknowledge(1Peter 1:2)
That is God's foreknowledge of our future desision.

For example:
I know my wife would choose "Red Lobster" over another restaurant if it was in the choice.
I would plan on taking her there and make reservations before she made the choice.
I didn't ask my wife before I planed, but I did ask her afterwards.

As for salvation:
God know us so well that He know from before the foundation of the world that we would accept His offer of salvation.

So then how can man choose God without the Holy Spirit since Paul says that without the Holy Spirit man can't accept the things that come from God? :o

How can man choose God if his eyes are blinded and he cannot see the light of the gospel? :o

How can man choose God if God isn't drawing him since Jesus said; "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him"? :o

So this debate isn't about people's opinions on whether man could have free will. It's about what the bible says about free will. :roll:

 

[Vic C.]

How do we reconcile this? In other words, can these people be punished based solely on the premises that they were not chosen and were left to their own "devices"?

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Bubba]

How do we reconcile this? In other words, can these people be punished based solely on the premises that they were not chosen and were left to their own "devices"?

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Well, Vic,C, this is probably going to open a whole “can of wormsâ€Â, but I will tell you my thoughts and remember I could be wrong. I believe that God is sovereign in salvation and everything else in life, and He made man in such a way, that after the “Fall†they were and are so enslaved by Satan that they would never make a choice for Jesus without first being made alive spiritually. On the other hand I believe Hell will be fair to the individual, in that there will be punishment fit for the overall evil committed, Hitler types will suffer a little longer then a guy who lived a basically quiet life, but did not know Jesus as their Saviour. Here is where I am going to receive a lot of flack: the punishment is temporal in regards to suffering, but eternal in the sense that they will be annihilated for eternity. Many have begun to see Hell this way. Therefore, if I am right, the reprobate is in place in God’s scheme of things for the elect, so I would have to admit to a double predestination.
There is a good book that might still be in print called “Two Views of Hell†by Edward Fudge and Robert Peterson and they argue both sides of this issue. I agree more with Fudge.
Blessings, Bubba

 

[jgredline]

Well, Vic,C, this is probably going to open a whole “can of wormsâ€Â, but I will tell you my thoughts and remember I could be wrong. I believe that God is sovereign in salvation and everything else in life, and He made man in such a way, that after the “Fall†they were and are so enslaved by Satan that they would never make a choice for Jesus without first being made alive spiritually. On the other hand I believe Hell will be fair to the individual, in that there will be punishment fit for the overall evil committed, Hitler types will suffer a little longer then a guy who lived a basically quiet life, but did not know Jesus as their Saviour. Here is where I am going to receive a lot of flack: the punishment is temporal in regards to suffering, but eternal in the sense that they will be annihilated for eternity. Many have begun to see Hell this way. Therefore, if I am right, the reprobate is in place in God’s scheme of things for the elect, so I would have to admit to a double predestination.
There is a good book that might still be in print called “Two Views of Hell†by Edward Fudge and Robert Peterson and they argue both sides of this issue. I agree more with Fudge.
Blessings, Bubba

I had already suspected that you believed annihilation.....I am not in the least bit surprised.....

 

[Heidi]

How do we reconcile this? In other words, can these people be punished based solely on the premises that they were not chosen and were left to their own "devices"?

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Paul answers that in Romans 9:19-25 after he said that God hardens whom he wants and has mercy on whom he wants. "One of you will say to me; "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" To that Paul answers; "Who are you O man to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, "why did you make me like this" Does not the potter have the right to form out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble uses and some for common use?"

This is the same principle that Jesus illustrated through the parable of the workers in Matthew chapter 20. The employer (God)decides who to hire, who to fire, and how much to pay or not pay his employees. It isn't the employee who decides what he deserves but the employer, nor is it for the emplyees to talk back to the employer and decide how he should run his business.

And it's the same with God. He is the one who makes the decisions and decides who has favor in his eyes, not man. :wink: If it were up to man, man would say; "I'm the better worker so I deserve better wages and better treatment", as Jesus tells us in that parable. Not so says God. "He who wants to be first will be last." And that's why the only equitable system is salvation through God's election rather than the good works of man because man is only elevating himself by doing that.

So God chose the despised things of the world to humble the wise as he tells us in 1 Corinthians 1:28. So salvation does not depend on man's own effort or even desire, as Romans 9:16 tells us, but only on God's mercy and sovereign choice. This is God's plan, not man's. ;-)

 

[Guest]

Challenge for those that believe in predesitination:

Before the question, let me add a caveat - I believe there is a difference between predestination and the sovereignity of God.

Challenge: If you believe in predestination - then one must assume that God has predestined your birth and your death. Therefore, stop eating.

If God has predestined your death - NOTHING you can do will be able to thwart that - therefore, just stop eating.



(after a few responses, I will explain why I believe there is a difference between predestination and sovereignity of God)

 

[Heidi]

Challenge for those that believe in predesitination:

Before the question, let me add a caveat - I believe there is a difference between predestination and the sovereignity of God.

Challenge: If you believe in predestination - then one must assume that God has predestined your birth and your death. Therefore, stop eating.

If God has predestined your death - NOTHING you can do will be able to thwart that - therefore, just stop eating.



(after a few responses, I will explain why I believe there is a difference between predestination and sovereignity of God)

:o Sorry, but I don't determine when I die, God does. And when he does, he will keep me from eating. God knows my heart, what my responses will be and if he wants me alive, you can bet he will keep me from harm as Jesus tells us, "I will keep you from harm. "I will make you strong." So since I'm not stronger than God, then if he wants he alive, he will give me the desire to stay alive. I can thus be rest assured that my life is in God's hands so I don't have a thing to worry about. ;-) "Ye of little faith." :wink:

 

[Guest]

:o Sorry, but I don't determine when I die, God does. And when he does, he will keep me from eating. God knows my heart, what my responses will be and if he wants me alive, you can bet he will keep me from harm as Jesus tells us, "I will keep you from harm. "I will make you strong." So since I'm not stronger than God, then if he wants he alive, he will give me the desire to stay alive. I can thus be rest assured that my life is in God's hands so I don't have a thing to worry about. ;-) "Ye of little faith." :wink:

I believe you misunderstood. Since God has determined when you will die - then there is nothing that you can do to thwart that. You will die when God has appointed you to die.

Therefore, stop eating. Since God has determined when you will die - then will He also not sustain you as well? Therefore, if you stop eating - will God not sustain you?

Since, as you say, you "have nothing to worry about"

 

[jgredline]

Does God love everybody or just the elect?

Does God hate those who are not his?

 

[Bubba]

I had already suspected that you believed annihilation.....I am not in the least bit surprised.....

Actually, I am working through my thoughts on this area, nothing real concrete, but I am leaning more in that direction as I study the topic. I differ from the SDA'S in that I do not believe in soul sleep for the elect, at the new birth, the elect are now eternal beings in glory (Colosians 1:13). Where as the nonelect are not eternal, because they do not have God's Spirit in union with theirs like the elect. Remember, I said I could be wrong.
Now in regards to limited atonement, is that not the whole argument that Pauls uses in Romans 9:14-24? God is the Potter as Heidi as already made reference to, and He does what He wants with His creation.
Bubba

 

[Vic C.]

God is the Potter as Heidi as already made reference to, and He does what He wants with His creation.

Even to the point of HIM causing them to sin? That's the crux of double predestination; it suggests that God creates beings for the express purpose of doing something He is incapable of doing and abhors.

Saying it's God's ball and He can play with it however He chooses is contrary to His nature. Even He has rules and HAS to adhere to them. God is incapable of sinning; does that mean He doesn't have free will either?

 

[Bubba]

Even to the point of HIM causing them to sin? That's the crux of double predestination; it suggests that God creates beings for the express purpose of doing something He is incapable of doing and abhors.

Saying it's God's ball and He can play with it however He chooses is contrary to His nature. Even He has rules and HAS to adhere to them. God is incapable of sinning; does that mean He doesn't have free will either?

Martin Luther in His book "Bondage of the Will" a rebuttal to Erasmus, made the quote, "all things happen out of necessity but not out of compulsion". That is to say, yes all things are ordain, but God uses the things that evil men do for His purposes, that they would have done anyway without coercion.The books of Job and Habakkuk are great examples of this, evil men doing what they do naturally, yet still ordained (or allowed) by God.
Blessings, Bubba

 

[Heidi]

I believe you misunderstood. Since God has determined when you will die - then there is nothing that you can do to thwart that. You will die when God has appointed you to die.

Therefore, stop eating. Since God has determined when you will die - then will He also not sustain you as well? Therefore, if you stop eating - will God not sustain you?

Since, as you say, you "have nothing to worry about"

It is you who missed my point. God has determined when I will die. So why would you think it's now? :o Me thinking it's now is my determintation, not God's. :roll:

 

[Heidi]

Martin Luther in His book "Bondage of the Will" a rebuttal to Erasmus, made the quote, "all things happen out of necessity but not out of compulsion". That is to say, yes all things are ordain, but God uses the things that evil men do for His purposes, that they would have done anyway without coercion.The books of Job and Habakkuk are great examples of this, evil men doing what they do naturally, yet still ordained (or allowed) by God.
Blessings, Bubba

But God also tells us tha He will harden hearts like he did with Pharoah and Saul. ;-) And Zechariah also tells us that God will raise up a "foolish shepherd" (the anti-Christ.). So God is not only foreknowing but he is actively involved in people's lives.

Proverbs 16:9, "In his heart, a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps."

 

[Guest]

It is you who missed my point. God has determined when I will die. So why would you think it's now? :o Me thinking it's now is my determintation, not God's. :roll:

Who said anything about it being "now"?

As I have said - and I agree with you - it is God who has determined when you will die. Therefore, just stop eating. Since God has determined when you will die - nothing you do will thwart it.

I am not suggesting that you are making the decision of when you will die, God has already made that decision.

Maybe I should ask it this way: Why do you continue to eat? If you were to stop eating, would you die - even though God has ordained the time that you would die?

I believe that God operates with Sovereignity that allows for Human Responsibility.

In other words, God has ordained when we will die, but we still have a responsibility to eat, to take care of ourselves, etc.

 

[Bubba]

But God also tells us tha He will harden hearts like he did with Pharoah and Saul. ;-) And Zechariah also tells us that God will raise up a "foolish shepherd" (the anti-Christ.). So God is not only foreknowing but he is actively involved in people's lives.

Proverbs 16:9, "In his heart, a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps."

Yes, this is true, but God does this as a second cause agent in that for people like Saul and Pharaoh, He just removes restraints (hardens the heart) and let people be what they will be, evil. There will come a time prior to Christ return when, all restraints from God will be removed and mankind will be given over to their evil desires, and what a nasty place the world will be at that time.Remember all good things come from above even for the pagan and heathen, thus the elect have a environment that is half way liveable.
Bubba