Free Will

[Proximity]

Ok, so i know this topic has probably been beaten to death, but i recently got into a discussion with a friend about this one. My friend is Christian Reformed and believes that God choses who is saved, that we are predestined and that we have no free will. I believe up until proven otherwise that we have free will and that we have the choice to be saved.

So my question in this: Do we have free will?

Passages such as Ephesians 1:11 and Romans 8:29-30 make it seem clear that we don't, but i've always been told we do. I don't want to be a naive Christian who only believes because they've been told to believe, so please help me get a clearer understanding of this, thank you.

 

[jgredline]

Prox
I lean twords the reformed side in most of my theology....but I believe Scripture is clear that we have ''FREE WILL'' and so this is why I call myself a ''Calminianist''.....a true 5 point calvinist or Hyper Calvinist, does not believe in free will.....The fact is this...Free will was in full effect in the garden....Eve made the free choice to chomp on the fruit and Adam made the free choice to follow his women...

As far as election goes, the bible teaches both.....First, it teaches that God does choose men to salvation (2 Thess. 2:13). It addresses believers as those who are “elect according to the foreknowledge of God (1 Pet. 1:2). It teaches that people can know whether they are elect by their response to the gospel: those who hear and believe it are elect (1 Thess. 1:47).

On the other hand, the Bible never teaches that God chooses men to be lost. The fact that He chooses some to be saved does not imply that He arbitrarily condemns all the rest. He never condemns men who deserve to be saved (there are none), but He does save some who ought to be condemned. When Paul describes the elect, he speaks of them as “vessels of mercy which He had prepared beforehand for glory†(Rom. 9:23); but when he turns to the lost, he simply says, “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction (Rom. 9:22). God prepares vessels of mercy to glory, but He does not prepare men for destruction: they do this for themselves by their own unbelief.

The doctrine of election lets God be God. He is sovereign, that is, He can do as He pleases, although He never pleases to do anything unjust. If left alone, all men would be lost. Does God have the right to show mercy to some?

But there is another side to the story. The same Bible that teaches sovereign election also teaches human responsibility. No one can use the doctrine of election as an excuse for not being saved. God makes a bona fide offer of salvation to all people everywhere (John 3:16; 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 10:9, 13). Anyone can be saved by repenting of his sins and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, if a person is lost, it is because he chooses to be lost, not because God desires it.

The fact is that the same Bible teaches election and free salvation to all who will receive it. Both doctrines are found in a single verse: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out (John 6:37). The first half of the verse speaks of Gods sovereign choice; the last half extends the offer of mercy to all.

This poses a difficulty for the human mind. How can God choose some and yet offer salvation freely to all men? Frankly, this is a mystery. But the mystery is on our side, not on Gods. The best policy for us is to believe both doctrines because the Bible teaches both. The truth is not found somewhere between election and mans free will, but in both extremes.

http://www.pro4machineworks.com/The_doc ... ction.html

Anyway, I hope this helps....and let the debates begin...

 

[MarkT]

Ok, so i know this topic has probably been beaten to death, but i recently got into a discussion with a friend about this one. My friend is Christian Reformed and believes that God choses who is saved, that we are predestined and that we have no free will. I believe up until proven otherwise that we have free will and that we have the choice to be saved.

So my question in this: Do we have free will?

Passages such as Ephesians 1:11 and Romans 8:29-30 make it seem clear that we don't, but i've always been told we do. I don't want to be a naive Christian who only believes because they've been told to believe, so please help me get a clearer understanding of this, thank you.

Because no one believed in God, God sent out his angels to compel men into the church. So belief isn't a matter of choice. Both the good and the bad are compelled. But as to election, many are called but few are chosen. It's by the grace of God that we receive the gifts of God. As to predestination, it goes along with our preexistence; that is, our names were written in the book of life before we were born and our birth serves God's plan. God declared everything from the beginning. He predestined those who he foreknew. Paul so writes in his letter to the Galatians, that he was 'set apart before I was born' Gal. 1:15. When you achieve a level of faith equal with the Apostles, then you will see everything in terms of God's will and you will no longer see in human terms. As to salvation, those who endure to the end will be saved. We are constantly being tested and refined and tempted but God will not lose anyone who belongs to him.

 

[Guest]

We are constantly being tested and refined and tempted but God will not lose anyone who belongs to him.

Are you implying that God is the one who is tempting?

While I will agree that God may test and refine - I draw the line at saying that God can tempt.

 

[mutzrein]

Good post MarkT.

And I offer this comment of my own free will :wink:

 

[francisdesales]

So my question in this: Do we have free will?

Today, Catholics who pray the Liturgy of the Hours prayed Psalm 81. I will quote the pertinent passages, and you decide on the question you post...

I removed his shoulder from the burden; his hands were delivered from working with clay. Thou didst call in trouble, and I delivered thee; I answered thee in the secret [place] of thunder; I proved thee at the waters of Meribah. Selah. Hear, O my people, and I will testify unto thee; O Israel, if thou wilt hearken unto me, no strange god shall be in thee, neither shalt thou worship any strange god. I [am] the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt; open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it. But my people did not hearken to my voice, and Israel did not love me. So I gave them up unto the hardness of their heart, [and] they walked in their own counsels. Oh, if my people would hearken unto me [and] Israel would walk in my ways! I would soon subdue their enemies and turn my hand against their adversaries. The haters of the LORD would have submitted themselves unto him, and their time would endure for ever. And [God] would have fed them also the finest of the wheat, and with honey out of the rock I would have satisfied thee. Psalm 81:8-16

Regards

 

[William Putnam]

Ok, so i know this topic has probably been beaten to death, but i recently got into a discussion with a friend about this one. My friend is Christian Reformed and believes that God choses who is saved, that we are predestined and that we have no free will. I believe up until proven otherwise that we have free will and that we have the choice to be saved.

So my question in this: Do we have free will?

Passages such as Ephesians 1:11 and Romans 8:29-30 make it seem clear that we don't, but i've always been told we do. I don't want to be a naive Christian who only believes because they've been told to believe, so please help me get a clearer understanding of this, thank you.

Here is a quote from scripture that emphatically demonstrates free will:

So the Lord said to Cain: "Why are you so resentful and crestfallen? if you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can become his master" Genesis 4:6-7

We see God actually pleading with Cain not to do the terrible deed he is contemplating, yet Cain does it anyway and he kills his brother Abel. Cain could have chosen not to do the deed, as God advises him, but he goes against the advice of God! A demonstration of free will as I have ever seen in scripture!

We also know intuitively that one who is forced to do evil, cannot be guilty of that evil. If a robber forces me at gun point to help him fill his bag of loot, am I guilty of being his accomplice?

Which is better, that your wife or husband be compelled to love you, or that he or she loves you out of their own free will? In that light, how does God want us to love him?

This is a part of the natural law embossed upon our hearts and minds that we know intuitively, rapidly learned from infancy and experience.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

[MarkT]

Here is a quote from scripture that emphatically demonstrates free will:

So the Lord said to Cain: "Why are you so resentful and crestfallen? if you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can become his master" Genesis 4:6-7

We see God actually pleading with Cain not to do the terrible deed he is contemplating, yet Cain does it anyway and he kills his brother Abel. Cain could have chosen not to do the deed, as God advises him, but he goes against the advice of God! A demonstration of free will as I have ever seen in scripture!

We also know intuitively that one who is forced to do evil, cannot be guilty of that evil. If a robber forces me at gun point to help him fill his bag of loot, am I guilty of being his accomplice?

Which is better, that your wife or husband be compelled to love you, or that he or she loves you out of their own free will? In that light, how does God want us to love him?

Do your parents want you to love them or do you love them because they are your parents? Does anyone consciously 'choose' to love their parents? Do your parents have to force you to love them? Of course not. It's not a question of what's better. The fact is, love is not compelled and love isn't about freewill. When you honor your parents, do you do it because you have freewill or because you love your parents? When they ask you to do something, do you say to them , 'I am not a robot' or do you do it? Do your parents have to put a gun to your head before you will do anything for them? Not if you love your parents. When do you stop to consider your own freewill and when does 'choice' enter your mind? Only the ungrateful rebellious son would say, 'I will not listen'. Do you not agree that freewill is a stupid intellectual argument? If you love God, you will want to do what your Father tells you to do. He doesn't ask much, only that we believe in his Son. He doesn't ask us to break the commandments. He doesn't ask us to do evil.

 

[William Putnam]

Here is a quote from scripture that emphatically demonstrates free will:

So the Lord said to Cain: "Why are you so resentful and crestfallen? if you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can become his master" Genesis 4:6-7

We see God actually pleading with Cain not to do the terrible deed he is contemplating, yet Cain does it anyway and he kills his brother Abel. Cain could have chosen not to do the deed, as God advises him, but he goes against the advice of God! A demonstration of free will as I have ever seen in scripture!

We also know intuitively that one who is forced to do evil, cannot be guilty of that evil. If a robber forces me at gun point to help him fill his bag of loot, am I guilty of being his accomplice?

Which is better, that your wife or husband be compelled to love you, or that he or she loves you out of their own free will? In that light, how does God want us to love him?

Do your parents want you to love them or do you love them because they are your parents? Does anyone consciously 'choose' to love their parents? Do your parents have to force you to love them? Of course not. It's not a question of what's better. The fact is, love is not compelled and love isn't about freewill. When you honor your parents, do you do it because you have freewill or because you love your parents? When they ask you to do something, do you say to them , 'I am not a robot' or do you do it? Do your parents have to put a gun to your head before you will do anything for them? Not if you love your parents. When do you stop to consider your own freewill and when does 'choice' enter your mind? Only the ungrateful rebellious son would say, 'I will not listen'. Do you not agree that freewill is a stupid intellectual argument? If you love God, you will want to do what your Father tells you to do. He doesn't ask much, only that we believe in his Son. He doesn't ask us to break the commandments. He doesn't ask us to do evil.

Do your parents want you to love them or do you love them because they are your parents?

Ah, a bit non sequitur here, I think, trying to see how I see free will of choice out of your question.

Does anyone consciously 'choose' to love their parents?

Er, ah, yes, at least I choose to do so, and out of my own free will of choice too! :smt023

Do your parents have to force you to love them? Of course not. It's not a question of what's better. The fact is, love is not compelled and love isn't about freewill.

Perhaps my example of a husbsnd desiring his wife to love him our of her own free will of choice rather then to be forced threw you off, trying to show that we know this intuitively in our hearts and minds, called the natural law we all come to recognise.

When you honor your parents, do you do it because you have freewill or because you love your parents? When they ask you to do something, do you say to them , 'I am not a robot' or do you do it? Do your parents have to put a gun to your head before you will do anything for them? Not if you love your parents. When do you stop to consider your own freewill and when does 'choice' enter your mind? Only the ungrateful rebellious son would say, 'I will not listen'. Do you not agree that freewill is a stupid intellectual argument? If you love God, you will want to do what your Father tells you to do. He doesn't ask much, only that we believe in his Son. He doesn't ask us to break the commandments. He doesn't ask us to do evil.

I'm rather confused with your answer here, so perhaps I can get you to speak upon the scripture quote from Genesis?

But I will say that free will of choice is NOT a "stupid intellectual argument" when we know that one who has a gun thrust into your face, a robber who forces you to help him fill his bag of loot that any society of man and of law would instantly determine that you would not be guilty of being the robbers' aacomplice since you were forced to do so against your own free will of choice.

But if he inticed you, that he would share the loot with you if you helped him is another matter entirely...

Is that a better example for you?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

[mutzrein]

So, how much will does a child have in determining whether or not they are born?

Anyone have a free will offering? :-?

 

[William Putnam]

So, how much will does a child have in determining whether or not they are born?

Yes.

It is called self-awareness. 8-)

Anyone have a free will offering? :-?

Giving yourself over to Christ is as good a free will offering as I can think of... :roll:


In fact, it is the best offering we can make with our own free will. :angel:

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Rome has spoken, case is closed.

Derived from Augustine's famous Sermon.

 

[mutzrein]

Bill - are you saying that you 'chose' to be born?

Sounds almost as preposterous as entering your mothers womb again :o

 

[William Putnam]

Bill - are you saying that you 'chose' to be born?

Not at all! Things do happen to us that do not envolve the free will of choice. Being born is one of them. Being forced at gun point to fill a robber's bag is another occasion where the free will is bypassed -is beyond our free will of choice - for which we cannot be held responsible for.

Or, to put it another way, are you "resonsible" for your being born?

Sounds almost as preposterous as entering your mothers womb again :o

Of course!

But then Jesus explained to Nicodemus exactly what it took to be "born again," didn't He? (John 3:5) 8-)

Peter elaborated on what "water" can do later on, as given in my tagline below... :-D

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



"Noah during the building of the ark,
in which a few persons,
eight in all,
were saved through water.
This prefigured baptism
which saves you now"

1 Peter 3:20-21

 

[MarkT]

I'm rather confused with your answer here, so perhaps I can get you to speak upon the scripture quote from Genesis?

But I will say that free will of choice is NOT a "stupid intellectual argument" when we know that one who has a gun thrust into your face, a robber who forces you to help him fill his bag of loot that any society of man and of law would instantly determine that you would not be guilty of being the robbers' aacomplice since you were forced to do so against your own free will of choice.

But if he inticed you, that he would share the loot with you if you helped him is another matter entirely...

You mean your proof that man has a will of his own? The Scriptures say a man plans his way. God directs his steps. So men can reject God. In fact they do. But it is because men would not listen to God that God sent his Son. What is your point? Anyone who is born of God, who has partaken of the divine nature of God, loves God, loves his brethren, hates evil and seeks the knowledge of God. It's our nature to do so. We have the mind of Christ.

Sorry but I don't understand your 'being forced' argument. Who is being forced? God can direct a man's steps without forcing him to believe in God simply by bring about his plan. God can do it. God lets the wicked be tempted and fall. But he is the rock of our salvation. He is the one we take refuge in. By 'we' I mean anyone who believes in Jesus Christ. He leads us into the paths of righteousness. Psalms 23:3

 

[William Putnam]

You mean your proof that man has a will of his own? The Scriptures say a man plans his way. God directs his steps. So men can reject God. In fact they do. But it is because men would not listen to God that God sent his Son. What is your point?

Was not the subject of this theaqd "free will"?

Let's start this all over again and have me ask you if you do not see the free will of man adequately showm in the following scripture quote:

So the Lord said to Cain: "why are you so resentful and crestfallen?
If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon
lurking at the door: his urge is toward you yet you can be his master."
Genesis 4:6-7
\
Does not Cain have a choice here, either to follow the urgings of God or to go against God's desires and go on to do what we all know what he did by killing his brother Abel?

Do you see Cain, an a automatron of sorts, no-free-will obedience to God, and does not kill his brother, or do we see Cain go against what God advises? If God knew from all eternity what Cain would choose to do, why then does He plead with Cain not to do what he ultimately did?

That last question is a profundity, that seems to imply a contradiction: God knows what we will ultimately choose to do out of our own free will of choice, yet knowing what he will choose to do without his unfinite forknowkedge influencing what he chooses to do!

How does God do this? Simple: God can do anything! Afterall He is GOD! 8-)

And I think this profundity is what trips-up Calvinists into the error they perpetuate, in their attempt to explain it. Sorry.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)

 

[William Putnam]

You mean your proof that man has a will of his own? The Scriptures say a man plans his way. God directs his steps. So men can reject God. In fact they do. But it is because men would not listen to God that God sent his Son. What is your point?

Was not the subject of this thead "free will"?

Let's start this all over again and have me ask you if you do not see the free will of man adequately showm in the following scripture quote:

So the Lord said to Cain: "why are you so resentful and crestfallen?
If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon
lurking at the door: his urge is toward you yet you can be his master."
Genesis 4:6-7
\
Does not Cain have a choice here, either to follow the urgings of God or to go against God's desires and go on to do what we all know what he did by killing his brother Abel?

Do you see Cain, an a automatron of sorts, no-free-will obedience to God, and does not kill his brother, or do we see Cain go against what God advises? If God knew from all eternity what Cain would choose to do, why then does He plead with Cain not to do what he ultimately did?

That last question is a profundity, that seems to imply a contradiction: God knows what we will ultimately choose to do out of our own free will of choice, yet knowing what he will choose to do without his unfinite forknowkedge influencing what he chooses to do!

How does God do this? Simple: God can do anything! Afterall He is GOD! 8-)

And I think this profundity is what trips-up Calvinists into the error they perpetuate, in their attempt to explain it. Sorry.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)

 

[MarkT]

Was not the subject of this thead "free will"?

It seems to be of some importance to you. I have no idea why. I'm not a Calvinist by the way. My beginnings are in the Catholic church.

Let's start this all over again and have me ask you if you do not see the free will of man adequately showm in the following scripture quote:

So the Lord said to Cain: "why are you so resentful and crestfallen?
If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon
lurking at the door: his urge is toward you yet you can be his master."
Genesis 4:6-7
\
Does not Cain have a choice here, either to follow the urgings of God or to go against God's desires and go on to do what we all know what he did by killing his brother Abel?

I'd say Cain didn't listen to God. Whether the theoretical choice existed is hardly worth mentioning. The event followed Cain's plan by Cain's will but it was God's will that it happened. You seem to not want to accept the facts and you are wrapped up in theory. Who's choice was it to create man? Who created Cain? If God had not created man, then we wouldn't be here arguing about Cain and Abel. So who's choice was it ultimately? Do you think God doesn't know who you are and what you will do? God raised Cain for his purpose. We are all born for God's purpose to the end he has planned and declared from the beginning.

Do you see Cain, an a automatron of sorts, no-free-will obedience to God, and does not kill his brother, or do we see Cain go against what God advises? If God knew from all eternity what Cain would choose to do, why then does He plead with Cain not to do what he ultimately did?

No. I don't know where you got that idea. This charge of 'robot' comes from darkness. Does anyone think man is a robot? I don't think so. So no one is saying that. Still, the reading of Genesis doesn't support your contention that man is a moral free agent. It actually says, either do well or sin is waiting for you. Either serve God or sin will overtake you. Cain was warned but he wouldn't listen. God was not pleading with Cain. Cain was told the truth, like Adam was told the truth; that he would die in the day he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Cain was told he would be accepted if he did well and if he didn't, sin was waiting for him. God didn't say 'if' Adam would eat, he would die. He said, 'you shall not eat, for you shall die'. In a similar sense, Cain was told he must master his desire to sin. Of course God knew Cain was thinking about killing his brother. The idea of God pleading with a man is kind of hilarious.

That last question is a profundity, that seems to imply a contradiction: God knows what we will ultimately choose to do out of our own free will of choice, yet knowing what he will choose to do without his unfinite forknowkedge influencing what he chooses to do!

How does God do this? Simple: God can do anything! Afterall He is GOD!

And I think this profundity is what trips-up Calvinists into the error they perpetuate, in their attempt to explain it. Sorry.

Yes God does know because God declared it from the beginning. Again, I'm not a Calvinist so I don't know what error you're referring to.

 

[William Putnam]

[quote:a926c]Was not the subject of this thead "free will"?

It seems to be of some importance to you. I have no idea why. I'm not a Calvinist by the way. My beginnings are in the Catholic church.[/quote:a926c]

From my limited knowledge of Protestantism (as it keeps on fissioning) Calvinism, in it’s various flavors, denies free will, therefore I bring that subject up! Unless others can correct me here, Calvinism is the only branch of Protestantism, in these various flavors, that does this.

As for your being a former Catholic, perhaps I can convince you to return to your “beginnings.â€Â

[quote:a926c]Let's start this all over again and have me ask you if you do not see the free will of man adequately shown in the following scripture quote:

So the Lord said to Cain: "why are you so resentful and crestfallen? If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you yet you can be his master." Genesis 4:6-7

Does not Cain have a choice here, either to follow the urgings of God or to go against God's desires and go on to do what we all know what he did by killing his brother Abel?

I'd say Cain didn't listen to God. Whether the theoretical choice existed is hardly worth mentioning.[/quote:a926c]

Huh? Is not God pleading with Cain not to do the dastardly deed he is contemplating? If so, does not Cain have a choice to make, YES or NO?

The event followed Cain's plan by Cain's will but it was God's will that it happened.

Therefore Cain had no choice in the matter? Like the robber who forces a person to fill his loot bag at the point of a gun, he is nevertheless still guilty of being an accomplice? Why do we not all intuitively know this in out hearts and minds, yet see the â€Âexception†of this natural law in our hearts and minds with God forcing Cain to abide by his own contemplation, especially in the light of God actually trying to talk him our of it?

You seem to not want to accept the facts and you are wrapped up in theory.

It is not theory at all! From our own heart, we see Cain being guilty of the great sin he committed, despite the pleading from God not to do so, and he does so anyway! Had Cain been forced somehow to commit this sin, how can he be guilty of the sin? A man kills another person in a total fit of insanity. Is he still guilty of murder anyway? Ask any British lawyer if your laws differ from ours here in the United States concerning an insane person to kills another. In fact, study ANY nation’s system of laws and see if they differ from the obvious norm - that one to be guilty of murder must have done so out a free will and consent to do so.

Who's choice was it to create man? Who created Cain? If God had not created man, then we wouldn't be here arguing about Cain and Abel. So who's choice was it ultimately? Do you think God doesn't know who you are and what you will do? God raised Cain for his purpose. We are all born for God's purpose to the end he has planned and declared from the beginning.

This sis totally and completely non sequitur to the subject at hand. But I do see the proposition that God has made us all automatrons (or robots) that we cannot deviate from what God has planned for us from conception to death, that even from birth, we are predestined to either heaven or hell, and our free will to choose has no bearing on the issue. Welcome to hard-core Calvinism, my friend!

[quote:a926c]Do you see Cain, an a automatron of sorts, no-free-will obedience to God, and does not kill his brother, or do we see Cain go against what God advises? If God knew from all eternity what Cain would choose to do, why then does He plead with Cain not to do what he ultimately did?

No. I don't know where you got that idea.[/quote:a926c]

If Cain had no choice in the matter, that he was predestined to kill his brother Abel without any decisional action on his part (the exercise of his free will of choice) and thus you agree with the Calvinist theories. You are essentially a Calvinist…

Are those questions so hard for you to answer, sir?

This charge of 'robot' comes from darkness.

Well, what other word would you choose to use instead for humanity that must dangle of strings linke puppets and do God’s will without any decisional actions on our parts? Are my questions that difficult for you to answer?

Does anyone think man is a robot?

From what I have seen from you so far, YOU DO! But if I err here, what else must I make of your tendency to deny the free will of choice that I declare is inherent in all of mankind?

I don't think so. So no one is saying that. Still, the reading of Genesis doesn't support your contention that man is a moral free agent.

Why, why, WHY does God plead with him not to do the deed Cain is contemplating?

It actually says, either do well or sin is waiting for you.

Does that not have Cain making a choice here, sir?

Either serve God or sin will overtake you.

Indeed! We have choices to make, don’t we? And to do so, we must have a free will to do so!

Cain was warned but he wouldn't listen.

Indeed again! N\Not listening is paramount to deciding to do the sin he has contemplated, right?

God was not pleading with Cain. Cain was told the truth, like Adam was told the truth; that he would die in the day he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Congratulations for pointing out the first instance in scripture where a free will of choice is demonstrated! Adam and Eve, of course!

Stick with me, my friend, and I will have you back to Holy Mother Church where you belong!

Cain was told he would be accepted if he did well and if he didn't, sin was waiting for him.

And do you suppose Cain understood what God said, yet he choose to do otherwise?

God didn't say 'if' Adam would eat, he would die. He said, 'you shall not eat, for you shall die'.

So what? Did they not violate that command anyway, with their own free will of choice?

In a similar sense, Cain was told he must master his desire to sin. Of course God knew Cain was thinking about killing his brother. The idea of God pleading with a man is kind of hilarious.

Then please explain to me why God attempted to talk Cain out of it if Cain will do it anyway?

[quote:a926c]That last question is a profundity, that seems to imply a contradiction: God knows what we will ultimately choose to do out of our own free will of choice, yet knowing what he will choose to do without his infinite foreknowledge influencing what he chooses to do!

How does God do this? Simple: God can do anything! After all He is GOD!

And I think this profundity is what trips-up Calvinists into the error they perpetuate, in their attempt to explain it. Sorry.

Yes God does know because God declared it from the beginning. Again, I'm not a Calvinist so I don't know what error you're referring to.[/quote:a926c]

The error is Calvinism, and you are up to your ears in it! :roll:

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


"A little bit of science averts people from God,
a lot of it, takes us back to Him" (Louis Pasteur).

 

[MarkT]

From my limited knowledge of Protestantism (as it keeps on fissioning) Calvinism, in it’s various flavors, denies free will, therefore I bring that subject up! Unless others can correct me here, Calvinism is the only branch of Protestantism, in these various flavors, that does this.

As for your being a former Catholic, perhaps I can convince you to return to your “beginnings.â€Â

I didn't say I was a former Catholic. My beginning was in the Catholic church. That's a concept you're probably not familiar with. From experience I can say the typical Catholic does not listen so he doesn't grow.

So the Lord said to Cain: "why are you so resentful and crestfallen? If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you yet you can be his master." Genesis 4:6-7

Does not Cain have a choice here, either to follow the urgings of God or to go against God's desires and go on to do what we all know what he did by killing his brother Abel?

'Who can resist his will?' Remember Paul asked, 'Why does he still find fault?' In the light of Christ we know Cain was raised to kill his brother. Could it have been any other way? No. A man might look at it and say Cain had a choice but we don't look at things in human terms.

I'd say Cain didn't listen to God. Whether the theoretical choice existed is hardly worth mentioning.

Huh? Is not God pleading with Cain not to do the dastardly deed he is contemplating? If so, does not Cain have a choice to make, YES or NO?

No. God warned Cain but Cain was a murderer from the beginning, even before he killed his brother. Why do you think God had no regard for Cain's offering? It angered Cain didn't it? Cain thought he was doing well but God had no regard for his offering. Doesn't that tell you something about Cain? Cain was willful. Cain didn't know God. Cain didn't understand. Cain didn't know what God wanted. Cain refused to give God what God wanted. Cain was stubborn. Cain wouldn't listen to God even after God warned him sin was waiting for him. Do you think Cain ever listened to God? Cain was a rebel from birth, as John puts it, 'Cain was of the evil one', meaning the devil. John 3:12 Now I can't say there was no choice. Obviously choices exist. But we know a bad tree does not bear good fruit.

The event followed Cain's plan by Cain's will but it was God's will that it happened.


Therefore Cain had no choice in the matter? Like the robber who forces a person to fill his loot bag at the point of a gun, he is nevertheless still guilty of being an accomplice? Why do we not all intuitively know this in out hearts and minds, yet see the â€Âexception†of this natural law in our hearts and minds with God forcing Cain to abide by his own contemplation, especially in the light of God actually trying to talk him our of it?

God did not force Cain.

You seem to not want to accept the facts and you are wrapped up in theory.


It is not theory at all! From our own heart, we see Cain being guilty of the great sin he committed, despite the pleading from God not to do so, and he does so anyway! Had Cain been forced somehow to commit this sin, how can he be guilty of the sin? A man kills another person in a total fit of insanity. Is he still guilty of murder anyway? Ask any British lawyer if your laws differ from ours here in the United States concerning an insane person to kills another. In fact, study ANY nation’s system of laws and see if they differ from the obvious norm - that one to be guilty of murder must have done so out a free will and consent to do so.

In the light of Christ we see Cain was raised for God's purpose. It's all God's will. 'How can he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' Romans 9:19 Does the potter not have any right over the clay to make of it what he wants?

Who's choice was it to create man? Who created Cain? If God had not created man, then we wouldn't be here arguing about Cain and Abel. So who's choice was it ultimately? Do you think God doesn't know who you are and what you will do? God raised Cain for his purpose. We are all born for God's purpose to the end he has planned and declared from the beginning.

This sis totally and completely non sequitur to the subject at hand. But I do see the proposition that God has made us all automatrons (or robots) that we cannot deviate from what God has planned for us from conception to death, that even from birth, we are predestined to either heaven or hell, and our free will to choose has no bearing on the issue. Welcome to hard-core Calvinism, my friend!

God has mercy on whom he has mercy. He has mercy upon whom he wills and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. There's a reason for it. If this is what you call hard core Calvinism, then so be it.

Do you see Cain, an a automatron of sorts, no-free-will obedience to God, and does not kill his brother, or do we see Cain go against what God advises? If God knew from all eternity what Cain would choose to do, why then does He plead with Cain not to do what he ultimately did?


No. I don't know where you got that idea.


If Cain had no choice in the matter, that he was predestined to kill his brother Abel without any decisional action on his part (the exercise of his free will of choice) and thus you agree with the Calvinist theories. You are essentially a Calvinist…

No. You're wrong again. I have root in myself.

Are those questions so hard for you to answer, sir?

Well I have to see what your problem is. I think you have two things conflated; 'will' and 'free'. I think we agree that man has a will. We are taught that a man without self control, or will power, is like a city broken into; only the walls are left standing. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. What do you mean by 'free'? Do you mean free to sin? As I see it, 'freewill' is, according to the flesh, the freedom to sin or choose evil.

The godless are free to sin. Cain was free to sin. The godless sin willfully. We are prisoners in Christ. How can you be in Christ and still be free to sin when there is no sin in Christ? There's no sin in Christ, therefore you can't choose sin. As John said, "No one who abides in him sins" John 3:6. Do you think you are 'free' to enter the kingdom? Not by your will! And yet there's freedom in Christ to enter and to go in and out.

Would you be happy without the freedom to sin? So I think that's what the Calvinists are saying; that to be in Christ, we have no freewill to sin, I guess meaning there's no sin to choose.

When we are born again of water and the Spirit, we are not free to sin. The choice, if you will, doesn't exist. But still, that doesn't mean that while we are still in our earthly body, the flesh doesn't have a will of it's own.

This charge of 'robot' comes from darkness.


Well, what other word would you choose to use instead for humanity that must dangle of strings linke puppets and do God’s will without any decisional actions on our parts? Are my questions that difficult for you to answer?

It's your word. You may not understand my answers.

 

[William Putnam]

[quote:20cb3][quote:20cb3]From my limited knowledge of Protestantism (as it keeps on fissioning) Calvinism, in it’s various flavors, denies free will, therefore I bring that subject up! Unless others can correct me here, Calvinism is the only branch of Protestantism, in these various flavors, that does this.

As for your being a former Catholic, perhaps I can convince you to return to your “beginnings.†[/quote:20cb3]


I didn't say I was a former Catholic. My beginning was in the Catholic church. That's a concept you're probably not familiar with. From experience I can say the typical Catholic does not listen so he doesn't grow.[/quote:20cb3]

Whats the difference?

[quote:20cb3]So the Lord said to Cain: "why are you so resentful and crestfallen? If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you yet you can be his master." Genesis 4:6-7

Does not Cain have a choice here, either to follow the urgings of God or to go against God's desires and go on to do what we all know what he did by killing his brother Abel?

'Who can resist his will?[/quote:20cb3]

Nobody can if God so chooses to absolutely enforces his will that we cannot resist!

But God is giving Cain a choice!

Remember Paul asked, 'Why does he still find fault?' In the light of Christ we know Cain was raised to kill his brother. Could it have been any other way? No. A man might look at it and say Cain had a choice but we don't look at things in human terms.

I wish you would have given the context and the chapter and verse of what Paul said, but what you are saying here is in direct opposition of how God relates to Cain in the text I have given you from Genesis. Saying that, I have yet to see you do a good exegesis of that text, so please have at it!

[quote:20cb3]I'd say Cain didn't listen to God. Whether the theoretical choice existed is hardly worth mentioning.

Huh? Is not God pleading with Cain not to do the dastardly deed he is contemplating? If so, does not Cain have a choice to make, YES or NO?

No. God warned Cain but Cain was a murderer from the beginning, even before he killed his brother.[/quote:20cb3]

Oh? Who did he kill before he murdered his brother?

Why do you think God had no regard for Cain's offering?

That has nothing at all to do with it. Did you notice God advising Cain if “He would do well†he could overcome Satan and his temptations (in so many words.)? Why is God wasting His time talking to Cain if Cain had no choice but to kill his brother? And another unanswered question I give to you again: How in the world can Cain be guilty of killing his brother if he is compelled to do so, like the robber who forces one to fill his bag of loot at gun point?

It angered Cain didn't it? Cain thought he was doing well but God had no regard for his offering. Doesn't that tell you something about Cain? Cain was willful. Cain didn't know God. Cain didn't understand. Cain didn't know what God wanted. Cain refused to give God what God wanted. Cain was stubborn. Cain wouldn't listen to God even after God warned him sin was waiting for him. Do you think Cain ever listened to God? Cain was a rebel from birth, as John puts it, 'Cain was of the evil one', meaning the devil. John 3:12 Now I can't say there was no choice. Obviously choices exist. But we know a bad tree does not bear good fruit.

Again, it has nothing at all to do with anything, especially when we see God attempting to have Cain reject the temptation to kill his brother. Cain has a choice, either to obey God’s direct plea to him, or to reject it and go his merry way and kill his brother. It is as obvious as the lines in your hands held up for your to see!

[quote:20cb3]The event followed Cain's plan by Cain's will but it was God's will that it happened.

Therefore Cain had no choice in the matter? Like the robber who forces a person to fill his loot bag at the point of a gun, he is nevertheless still guilty of being an accomplice? Why do we not all intuitively know this in out hearts and minds, yet see the â€Âexception†of this natural law in our hearts and minds with God forcing Cain to abide by his own contemplation, especially in the light of God actually trying to talk him our of it?

God did not force Cain. [/quote:20cb3]

WOW! We agree for a change!

[quote:20cb3]You seem to not want to accept the facts and you are wrapped up in theory.

It is not theory at all! From our own heart, we see Cain being guilty of the great sin he committed, despite the pleading from God not to do so, and he does so anyway! Had Cain been forced somehow to commit this sin, how can he be guilty of the sin? A man kills another person in a total fit of insanity. Is he still guilty of murder anyway? Ask any British lawyer if your laws differ from ours here in the United States concerning an insane person to kills another. In fact, study ANY nation’s system of laws and see if they differ from the obvious norm - that one to be guilty of murder must have done so out a free will and consent to do so.

In the light of Christ we see Cain was raised for God's purpose. It's all God's will. 'How can he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' Romans 9:19 Does the potter not have any right over the clay to make of it what he wants? [/quote:20cb3]

No, but apparently the potter gave the pot, made from the clay, a free will of choice, something inherent in being made “in the image of God.â€Â

[quote:20cb3]Who's choice was it to create man? Who created Cain? If God had not created man, then we wouldn't be here arguing about Cain and Abel. So who's choice was it ultimately? Do you think God doesn't know who you are and what you will do? God raised Cain for his purpose. We are all born for God's purpose to the end he has planned and declared from the beginning.

This sis totally and completely non sequitur to the subject at hand. But I do see the proposition that God has made us all automatrons (or robots) that we cannot deviate from what God has planned for us from conception to death, that even from birth, we are predestined to either heaven or hell, and our free will to choose has no bearing on the issue. Welcome to hard-core Calvinism, my friend!

God has mercy on whom he has mercy. He has mercy upon whom he wills and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. There's a reason for it. If this is what you call hard core Calvinism, then so be it.

Then I got you to admit it!

But you may be interested in reading the following:

http://bellsouthpwp2.net/p/u/putnam_w/Romans%209.htm

[quote:20cb3]Do you see Cain, as a automatron of sorts, no-free-will obedience to God, and does not kill his brother, or do we see Cain go against what God advises? If God knew from all eternity what Cain would choose to do, why then does He plead with Cain not to do what he ultimately did?

No. I don't know where you got that idea.

If Cain had no choice in the matter, that he was predestined to kill his brother Abel without any decisional action on his part (the exercise of his free will of choice) and thus you agree with the Calvinist theories. You are essentially a Calvinist… [/quote:20cb3]


No. You're wrong again. I have root in myself.[/quote:20cb3]

????

[quote:20cb3]Are those questions so hard for you to answer, sir?

Well I have to see what your problem is. I think you have two things conflated; 'will' and 'free'. I think we agree that man has a will. We are taught that a man without self control, or will power, is like a city broken into; only the walls are left standing. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. What do you mean by 'free'? Do you mean free to sin? As I see it, 'freewill' is, according to the flesh, the freedom to sin or choose evil.[/quote:20cb3]

Attempting to understand you here, yes, one is free to sin! But one is also free to resist sin and avoid it, just like God was trying to get Cain to dod when He pleaded with him.

The godless are free to sin. Cain was free to sin. The godless sin willfully. We are prisoners in Christ. How can you be in Christ and still be free to sin when there is no sin in Christ? There's no sin in Christ, therefore you can't choose sin. As John said, "No one who abides in him sins" John 3:6. Do you think you are 'free' to enter the kingdom? Not by your will! And yet there's freedom in Christ to enter and to go in and out.

I am “in Christ†and I still have the tendency to sin. Don’t you? Are you not tempted to sin? If not, then you are a most unusually blessed individual indeed!

Would you be happy without the freedom to sin? So I think that's what the Calvinists are saying; that to be in Christ, we have no freewill to sin, I guess meaning there's no sin to choose.

For years, I have debated Calvinist and their doctrines (and I do not claim to understand them, they seem to have so many “flavors†in their beliefs) yet I don’t think I have ever heard them say that they are somehow, without the temptations to sin. I will go further, speaking for myself, and say that I do continue to sin! I don’t want to sin, but I still sin, the temptation is “overwhelming†at times.

But I am sorry for them and is the reason why, yesterday, I took advantage of one of the Seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church - Reconciliation. Being a former Catholic, you will understand that when you went to confession to a priest. The doctrine on that Sacrament is found in John 20:22-23.

When we are born again of water and the Spirit, we are not free to sin. The choice, if you will, doesn't exist. But still, that doesn't mean that while we are still in our earthly body, the flesh doesn't have a will of it's own.

No, we are not “free to sin†as baptism does not give us a “license to sin.†But that tempts me to get into the issue of “Once Saved, Always Saved†(OSAS) wherein, by close analysis, amounts to that very thing - a “license to sin.†But we can discuss that another day…

[quote:20cb3]This charge of 'robot' comes from darkness.

Well, what other word would you choose to use instead for humanity that must dangle on strings like puppets and do God’s will without any decisional actions on our parts? Are my questions that difficult for you to answer?

It's your word. You may not understand my answers.[/quote:20cb3]

1. I rewrote my last statement above, which you quoted, so that it will read a little better.

2. And yes, I indeed, do not understand many of your answers…

God bless, http://forums.catholic-convert.com/images/smiles/pop[1].gif[/IMG

PAX

Bill+†+


[i]Say not: "It was God's doing that I fell away"; for what he hates he does not do.
Say not: "It was he who set me astray"; for he has no need of wicked man.
Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him.
When God, in the beginning, created man, [b]he made him subject to his own free
choice.[/b] If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.
There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your
hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him. Immense
is the wisdom of the LORD; he is mighty in power, and all-seeing. The eyes of God see
all he has made; he understands man's every deed. No man does he command to sin, to
none does he give strength for lies. [/i]
(Sirach 15:11-20)