Full Time Pastoring

[Classik]

Hi all. Does the bible teach typical pastors must be full time pastors - and you don't work at all or look for job outside...except to pastor the church? Ta

 

[reba]

Pastors work... To suggest they do not is like suggesting a mom does nothing...

 

[Obadiah]

Right, Reba. Those who suggest pastors don't work, or don't have a "real job" have no clue what a true pastor actually does all week.

But does the Bible require that they work full time only as a pastor or don't be a pastor at all? Not any Bible I've read. Much like everything else in life, every church, every pastor, and every ministry is going to have different requirements. But please don't interpret what I'm saying as supporting what seems to be a growing misconception lately that a pastor shouldn't consider his job as a pastor to be his source of income and should always do that for free while working at a secular job to support himself.

That idea that it's wrong for a pastor to be paid is also not Biblical. I'm starting to think that concept was originated by those who wish to destroy the church. We all know a good way to destroy an organization is to find some way to remove it's leaders. What better way to remove a leader (legally) than to take away his ability to support himself while doing his job as a leader? But I'm not accusing all who are repeating this idea that pastors should be forced to work for free of trying to destroy the church. I think it was started and spread by those who want to destroy the church and is now also being repeated by well meaning Christians that are simply ignorant of what the real job of a pastor in today's church entails. They simply have taken some concepts from scripture out of context and ignore other scripture to make their argument sound righteous so it will easily spread among the masses of unsuspecting pew sitters.

 

[reba]

The Levites were paid.... Agreed Obadiah

 

[Obadiah]

The Levites were paid.... Agreed Obadiah

Yes, they certainly were. Good point. I wonder if some people are just having a hard time understanding that just because the Levites didn't receive payment in the form of a check that they took to the bank that somehow today's church leadership shouldn't be allowed to get paid this way?

 

[Mike S]

There are thousands of small churches with part time pastors who have full time jobs outside the church. Early churches were house churches with members sharing worship duties. My personal opinion is that we should have NO professional pastors, all pastors should be itinerant lay people.

 

[Deborah13]

NASB
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we not have a right to eat and drink? 5 Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? 6 Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working? 7 Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock?

8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing.” God is not concerned about oxen, is He? 10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops. 11 If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you?

Although Paul and Barnabas were evangelist not pastors, they sometimes spent long periods of time in one place and Paul made tents.
I think verse 11 is what we should be looking at. Pastors sow spiritual things in us so therefore they have the right to reap material things from us.

 

[reba]

There are thousands of small churches with part time pastors who have full time jobs outside the church. Early churches were house churches with members sharing worship duties. My personal opinion is that we should have NO professional pastors, all pastors should be itinerant lay people.

As you probably know i am a PK.... Dad a small town small church pastor... Heading out before sunrise to the woods to fall timber coming back in about sunset... Get the phone calls from the congregation ... in need of a visit .. off to a hospital ... Pastor please come mom and dad are fighting . Daddy will you be at the ball game?
I know the difference in Dad after us kids were grown and he was able to devote a ton more time to study... and being pastor...

This is just one persons personal experience.

Mike S we tend to agree on most things cant win all i guess

 

[Mike S]

quote="reba, post: 914154, member: 1160"]As you probably know i am a PK.... Dad a small town small church pastor... Heading out before sunrise to the woods to fall timber coming back in about sunset... Get the phone calls from the congregation ... in need of a visit .. off to a hospital ... Pastor please come mom and dad are fighting . Daddy will you be at the ball game?
I know the difference in Dad after us kids were grown and he was able to devote a ton more time to study... and being pastor...

This is just one persons personal experience.

Mike S we tend to agree on most things cant win all i guess [/quote]

Reba, there are a lot of good pastors, dedicated and hard working. It's not the individuals I have a problem with. What I don't like is that having a professional class of leaders - church administrators - works toward turning the congregation into passive listeners. We're meant to be a community of passionate believers, each being a vital, active part of the whole. How often have we seen exactly the opposite? The burden of keeping the church going falls to one person, the rest become casual attenders with no commitment other than an hour on Sunday morning, arriving late and after a short while constantly looking at their watches. Or it so often leads to overactive egotism on the part of the pastor where the worship becomes an enrichment for him, million dollar homes, fleets of luxury cars, and groupies for him to get into sexual trouble with.

Power corrupts, corrupts even clergy, and bureaucracies are a millstone around the neck of churches, dragging them down into worldly mud pits.

 

[Obadiah]

Mike, the pastors you are describing are exceptions to the rule and you really shouldn't condemn the whole concept of paid staff pastors (or other church leadership) based only on these exceptions. Any pastor that leads his congregation into the conditions you described above isn't doing a very good job of pastoring, so maybe that's not really his calling. Or if the congregation's condition isn't the result of the pastor's poor leadership, maybe you should put the blame on the lazy pew sitters in the congregation for refusing to dedicate themselves to the Lord, not on the pastor or on his profession.

 

[for_his_glory]

1Timothy 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1Timothy 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

I believe elder here also refers to those who Shepard over us as we are the flock of the Church. Just as Jesus never took concern for what he would eat or lay his head a Pastor that is called of God never should either. I believe it is up to the congregation to provide for the needs of the Pastor and their families so they can give their full concentration on the ministry. A Pastor should be given a certain percentage of all offerings that the board members would agree on that would be sufficient for their cost of living.

 

[Mike S]

Mike, the pastors you are describing are exceptions to the rule and you really shouldn't condemn the whole concept of paid staff pastors (or other church leadership) based only on these exceptions. Any pastor that leads his congregation into the conditions you described above isn't doing a very good job of pastoring, so maybe that's not really his calling. Or if the congregation's condition isn't the result of the pastor's poor leadership, maybe you should put the blame on the lazy pew sitters in the congregation for refusing to dedicate themselves to the Lord, not on the pastor or on his profession.

Maybe, but that doesn't in my opinion justify professional full-time clergy. I think it's a huge reason for the deadness of the church in Europe and increasingly here in the U.S. There's certainly nothing biblical about it, nor is it anything like the early house churches.

 

[Obadiah]

Maybe, but that doesn't in my opinion justify professional full-time clergy. I think it's a huge reason for the deadness of the church in Europe and increasingly here in the U.S. There's certainly nothing biblical about it, nor is it anything like the early house churches.

How did paying wages to pastors cause the death of European or American churches? (As opposed to other factors.) Can you be more specific in this? Maybe some statistics or a reference to a study which shows the death of these churches in general was directly caused by the act of paying wages to pastors? I'm not just trying to argue, I really would like to read about this myself and see if my ideas and opinions need to be corrected. But I really do need to see verified facts to do this.

Also, I'm not sure if you meant the issue for you is whether full time or part time, or if it is the issue of paying wages? The fact that a mandate of "part time only" isn't specified in the Bible doesn't make it unbiblical to be full time. There were many things that the early church did and didn't do that are different today. That in itself doesn't make it wrong. Only if there was scripture that specifically says a person can NOT work full time in ministry would working full time be unbiblical. The mere fact that there was mention of people who sometimes chose to do some other work as well as ministry isn't necessarily a command that it has to be this way.

If the issue is the fact that they are being paid, there certainly HAVE been several scriptures already quoted in this thread to not only show that it's ok, but to show that it's actually commanded. Of course, I understand and agree with your examples of greed and hunger for power that you gave of a few of those pastors who are driving expensive top of the line luxury cars and living in multi-million dollar mansions while the majority of their congregations just live average lifestyles. But once again, unless you have some kind of study showing otherwise that you can show me, it seems pretty clear that those are a very small exception to the rule, and this tiny handful certainly don't justify violating scripture such as 1 Tim 5:17-18 and other supporting scripture others have cited above.

Once again, I'm not opposed to being corrected on my ideas on this, but I would like to see actual persuasive facts from accepted, rational sources in order to make that decision.

 

[Classik]

A lot of replies. Wow

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The problem may be with interpretation.
Are overseers and pastors the same thing?
Are pastors and elders the same thing?
Do pastors need to be or even should be the overseer or elder of their church?
A pastor should be a teacher/preacher that is concerned with the spiritual well-being of the church.
Similar requirements for elder/overseer?

I think if a pastor has total control over the church, it can interfere with what may/should be his primary concern.
And this is where our conflict may be.

 

[Mike S]

How did paying wages to pastors cause the death of European or American churches? (As opposed to other factors.) Can you be more specific in this? Maybe some statistics or a reference to a study which shows the death of these churches in general was directly caused by the act of paying wages to pastors? I'm not just trying to argue, I really would like to read about this myself and see if my ideas and opinions need to be corrected. But I really do need to see verified facts to do this.

Well, you're not going to see verified facts, I'm not going to play that game. If you can't understand what I'm saying, that's ok, I won't try to convince you of anything. But, I'm not talking about the minutiae of whether, or how much, a pastor is paid, I'm talking about the fact that such a professional position exists at all.

 

[Obadiah]

The problem may be with interpretation.
Are overseers and pastors the same thing?
Are pastors and elders the same thing?
Do pastors need to be or even should be the overseer or elder of their church?
A pastor should be a teacher/preacher that is concerned with the spiritual well-being of the church.
Similar requirements for elder/overseer?

I think if a pastor has total control over the church, it can interfere with what may/should be his primary concern.
And this is where our conflict may be.

Yeah, I can agree and understand that a pastor shouldn't have total control over a church. At least I don't think that is what was intended. But that wasn't what the OP asked. It asked "Does the bible teach typical pastors must be full time...". Just as in secular employment, just that fact that a worker has a full time position certainly doesn't have to mean he is in total control of the whole company. Likewise a full time pastor doesn't normally have total control over his church unless the congregation wants it that way. And even if this is what the congregation wants (I've seen some that do), this can happen with a part time pastor just as easily (I've seen that too).

 

[Obadiah]

Well, you're not going to see verified facts, I'm not going to play that game. If you can't understand what I'm saying, that's ok, I won't try to convince you of anything. But, I'm not talking about the minutiae of whether, or how much, a pastor is paid, I'm talking about the fact that such a professional position exists at all.

Well, ok, if you think considering verified facts in determining an entire ministry is unbiblical is simply playing a game, I have no more questions for you. I will have to consider your opinion nothing more than one person's personal opinion based only on his personal preferences. Thanks for at least being honest about that. This had nothing to do with not understanding what you are saying.

 

[Mike S]

Well, ok, if you think considering verified facts in determining an entire ministry is unbiblical is simply playing a game, I have no more questions for you. I will have to consider your opinion nothing more than one person's personal opinion based only on his personal preferences. Thanks for at least being honest about that. This had nothing to do with not understanding what you are saying.

Oh, but it does. You seem to like the role of Pharisee, and I don't

If you really want to understand what I'm saying, it doesn't require a bibliography of articles filled with "verifiable facts." Just learn how an unprogrammed Quaker Meeting functions without a pastor.

And, BTW, I'm fine with having you consider my opinion as just one person's personal opinion.

 

[reba]

hey guys we are all brothers /sisters in the Lord here..

.Not necessarily directed at the last poster