[_ Old Earth _] Fun to talk to!

[rmills]

Yeah. :D

Bob, it sounds to me like you based your relationship with God on other people rather than God. If you take the Bible, and you live by it, you discover that your relationship with Jesus is guaged on your relationship with Jesus alone, not on others relationship with Jesus.

Pardon me for saying this, but Christianity has the potential to be worse than non-Christians because they for some reason believe that they are better than someone else. This belief has no, repeat, NO scriptural foundation.

 

[bob]

Bob, it sounds to me like you based your relationship with God on other people rather than God.

Why would you make this analysis when I said nothing of my former "relationship" with Jesus? I am speaking from the perspective of a non believer. I don't have a "relationship" with Jesus now, so I gather my information from those who say they have a relationship with him. Is it wrong for me to look at believers as sort of an advertisement for christianity? Can I not judge the faith by the faithful? People become christians by being influenced by other christians. They don't just find a bible, start reading, and become christians. I am just saying that I do not find any qualities in christians that attract me to christianity.

If you take the Bible, and you live by it, you discover that your relationship with Jesus is guaged on your relationship with Jesus alone, not on others relationship with Jesus.

I did just that. For years I believed I had a relationship with Jesus, with the god of the bible. Since I left that "relationship", I have not detected any indication that he misses me.

 

[Quath]

I can say that I have no relationship with Jesus. I have fallen at times and I got back up. I also have hope and good feelings. Miracles are available everywhere if you look for them. They will support any religion you desire. For example if you want to see the following miracles:

• Goat with 'Muhammad' inscribed on Back [/*:m:6b112]
• Miracle Tree Resembling a Man Praying [/*:m:6b112]
• Stone with Kalimah on it [/*:m:6b112]
• The Beehive with the word "Allahu" [/*:m:6b112]
• The Miracle on a German Farm [/*:m:6b112]
• The Miracle in our Lungs [/*:m:6b112]
• Hidden Message in No. of Suras [/*:m:6b112]
• Hidden Message in Tomato [/*:m:6b112]
• "Ya Allah Ya Malik" on Toman fish [/*:m:6b112]
• Allah and Muhammed(pbuh) on a fish in Penang, Malaysia [/*:m:6b112]

Go to http://www.geocities.com/zahidtg2/Miracles/.

I can find miracles in Muslims for healing and heavenly insight. I can find miracles of Allah saving people from alcoholism and depression. These are the exact type of miracles used to "prove" Christianity. So if Christianity is true by the modern miracles claimed by Christianity, then the Islam must be true as well.

Quath

 

[Gary]

bob: "... I am just saying that I do not find any qualities in christians that attract me to christianity. "

Gary: Interesting. Do you often spend hours and hours around people you don't like? As most people on this forum are Christian, you must set very high standards for those "qualities" you think we should exhibit.

Converse to what you claim, I have met many great Christians here and in other chat rooms and forums who have become true friends. They are from all walks of life and live in different places around the world. Since becoming a Christian and because of the work I am involved in, I have also met many fellow-Christians who I admire, respect and who demonstrate admiral qualities. They have added many great blessings to me and the family by their friendship. Their "qualities" are recognised by all those who meet them. The words of Paul spring to mind “…love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-controlâ€Â.

Thank God for friends who have this “fruit of the Spiritâ€Â! May they continue to be blessed. May you also, one day, find Christians friends (even here) who have these qualities.

God bless you!

 

[Gary]

Learning about Christians with great "qualities"

bob: From my vantage point, I do not see christians as having anything I want or need. They do not display any character or personality traits that I desire. Collectively, they show the same propensity toward self preservation as I do. They do not seem to be any more compassionate toward their family, friends, and fellow human beings than I am. It seems to me that the only difference between believers and non believers is the claim. The claim that there is a god. But if there is a god, the god of the bible, it appears that he has failed miserably at helping his followers behave differently than those who do not follow him.

Gary: Of course, our greatest example is our Lord Jesus Christ! I need and want what He offers. He displays the character and personality traits I desire.

However, through the ages there have been thousands of examples of Christians with more compassionate toward their family, friends, and fellow human beings than atheists. That is a fact.

Read about them. Read some of the following books:

• Heroes of the Faith - Gene Fedele. Within the book you will find generation after generation accounts of lives of great and Godly men and women who have changed the world for Christ.
  
  Great Souls - Six Who Changed the Century - David Aikman
  
  John Wesley - Basil Miller
  
  Charles Spurgeon - Kathy Triggs
  
  Bible Characters - Alexander Whyte
  
  No future without forgiveness - Desmomd Tutu
  
  40 Fascinating Conversion Stories - Samuel Fisk
  
  Dietrich Bonhoeffer - a biography - Eberhard Bethge
  
  The Man Who Changed the World (two volumes) - Herbert Lockyer
  (In this fascinating study, Lockyer endeavors to produce facts and evidence proving that the greatest factor in the spiritual, moral and humane progress of mankind has been the impact of the person of Christ..... He has the greatest transforming power in the world)

Amen!

 

[Guest]

Is it wrong for me to look at believers as sort of an advertisement for christianity? Can I not judge the faith by the faithful?

:Fade-color It may appear like we advertise Jesus,but what it's about
is our Love for Jesus. He wants to save the lost. If you love Jesus Christ,
you want what he wants.
I may have heard about God through other people,but I was not influenced so much by them as I was by what God did and what he showed me himself.
There are many people who are bad soil,and when the cares of this life
comes,they lose their faith. satan can easily steal the faith of the weak.
Many hear the word and recieve it with gladness at first,but if the seed is
planted in harsh soil,satan comes and steals it away.
If we give up on God because we didn't get the little red camaro we wanted so badly,then thats very bad. Some people do not understand that
God says "NO',sometimes.
I don't know your life,or what happened to you,but throwing God away just because of other people isn't a sign of strength.
This means that other people influence what you feel,think and do.
And it shows that you let people take away your faith if this is the case.
Satan uses people and their weaknesses to hurt and damage other people.
(I did not choose God,he chose me.)

 

[Gary]

Quath trying to justify Islam again....

Quath: Miracles are available everywhere if you look for them. They will support any religion you desire. For example if you want to see the following miracles: Goat with 'Muhammad' inscribed on Back etc
Go to http://www.geocities.com/zahidtg2/Miracles/

Gary: Anyone who has looked at these so-called "miracles"in Islam knows that they are both silly and fake. As Ali Sina (an ex-Muslim) says:

Islam is a bankrupt religion that is utterly against any reason and commonsense. The entire Quran is full of errors - scientific errors, grammatical errors, historic errors and logical errors. Anyone, with a grain of intelligence is surprised at the stupidity of this book. But the poor Muslims have to convince themselves that Islam is indeed the religion of God and Allah is God. For that they have to fool themselves. They desperately try to manufacture miracles and find "signs" of Allah in the most bizarre things and genuinely they fall for it. In the absence of logic they content themselves with magic and childish tricks. The miracle indeed is not the Quran but the fact that 1.2 billion people read this nonsense and do not realize that it is a hoax.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/si ... _allah.htm

Quath: I can find miracles in Muslims for healing and heavenly insight. I can find miracles of Allah saving people from alcoholism and depression. These are the exact type of miracles used to "prove" Christianity. So if Christianity is true by the modern miracles claimed by Christianity, then the Islam must be true as well.

Gary: Actually, the only kinds of "miracles" you find when a Muslim studies the Quran and starts acting like Muhammad are the miracles of Jihad and the Taliban. Bin Laden acts more like Muhammad than the "peaceful" Muslim in your neighborhood. The "miracle" is that not more Muslims are brave enough to act out Muhammad COMMANDS in the Quran!

 

[Quath]

Anyone who has looked at these so-called "miracles"in Islam knows that they are both silly and fake.

That is the general impression I get from the Christian miracles as well.

Quath

 

[Guest]

I can find miracles in Muslims for healing and heavenly insight. I can find miracles of Allah saving people from alcoholism and depression. These are the exact type of miracles used to "prove" Christianity. So if Christianity is true by the modern miracles claimed by Christianity, then the Islam must be true as well.

Quath[/quote]

:B-fly: Quath,there is just one catch though,Islam will be accepted by the
world and the NWO,and global religious system,true christianity won't.
We live in a day where everyone wants to ask the question: "Will the true
church please stand up",because satan has planted so many false religions
in the world,that unless you seek God first,you won't know whose who,or what the truth is.
The true saints of God won't be accepted by the One world religion while
all other churches will be accepted.
The true church says that Jesus Christ is the only way to God,and that there is no other way to be saved,but one day soon that will be seen as
a threat to the other religions,and it will be called intolerance.
I believe the true church is invisible to the world right now because the
true saints are not a church building or denomination,they are the people
who have a real relationship with God one on one everyday and night,and they keep it real and they do not follow every new trend or idea of this world. The true christian will not be tolerated,and the true christian will be
hated by the Mother Harlot church and all her daughters.
Quath,just as it was long ago,it will be again,but this time it will be the final time. We know this because of the description given in the bible,and the technology that will be available.
The true christian will be hated by the New World Order,and thats how you
will know who is who in these last days.

 

[Guest]

:Fade-color Also the atheists will be hated,and they will be forced to conform or be killed. The world is growing towards zero tolerance for those they believe has no tolerance for the religious views and faiths
of others. If atheists keep on claiming evolution,then these are most
likely the atheists who will conform to the one world religion.
Many researchers and scholars know the pagan roots of evolution,and they know it's a religious view.
satan has found a way to get atheists into his religious program that he's
going to use before he destroys it.
He will use the pagan Mother Harlot Church to gain power,then when he
reaches success,he will destroy her and demand all worship for himself,and claim that he is God,a total lie,but satan will do ANYTHING to be worshiped!
I believe that the vast majority of atheists will conform to the religious system of the world because a great many of them already believe in
evolution so it's logically the next step.
satan has to keep his followers in the same group some how.

 

[bob]

bob: "... I am just saying that I do not find any qualities in christians that attract me to christianity. "

Gary: Interesting. Do you often spend hours and hours around people you don't like? As most people on this forum are Christian, you must set very high standards for those "qualities" you think we should exhibit.

Perhaps I should have said that I don't find the christian mind set to be desirable. For the most part, they are just people who believe in something I do not. They do not display any qualities that would make me stop and take notice. In general, if they didn't open their mouth, I would not know they were chriustian. And for you information, I do not dislike christians. Does any of this make sense to you?

 

[Guest]

:Fade-color Let us also be aware and alert to the fact that in the last days
there will be counterfeit miracles,ect.... all kinds of lying signs and wonders
that will mislead people.
This has been happening in the Catholic (universal ) religion for a very long time,but they are just more proof of what the bible warns us about.
The bible says to tests the Spirits to see if they are from God or not.
Evil Spirits get angry when you say "Jesus is LORD",and they also hate
it when you give praise Jesus Christ.
There will be plenty of lying signs and wonders,this is why its so important
to know the bible and know it well as you can,because the AC will twist
every word like satan has been doing all along.

 

[Guest]

bob: "... I am just saying that I do not find any qualities in christians that attract me to christianity. "

Gary: Interesting. Do you often spend hours and hours around people you don't like? As most people on this forum are Christian, you must set very high standards for those "qualities" you think we should exhibit.

Perhaps I should have said that I don't find the christian mind set to be desirable. For the most part, they are just people who believe in something I do not. They do not display any qualities that would make me stop and take notice. In general, if they didn't open their mouth, I would not know they were chriustian. And for you information, I do not dislike christians. Does any of this make sense to you?

:Fade-color bob, no christian can make you change or stop and take
notice.
When I began to see the light was when everything the bible says about
sinful lives came true in my life. The very things I was doing caused the same problems that the bible tells us about.
I began to see the things the bible said come true,and I noticed that it
more and more that it could not be a coincidence. The Bible is right.
The bible has got to be the truth. I am convinced of this. Thats not the only reason I changed,but it did open my eyes to the fact that the holy
bible is not just any book,and I didn't go to church,God sent someone
to me at my house. I believed what they said because this time it was
different. God was working in me before anyone talked to me.
It was the first time in my life that I could actually read the bible and
understand it.,and not just some of it. I was amazed I could finally read
it like it was.
God chooses us,we don't choose him.
We can tell you about The Lord Jesus,but we cannot make you believe.
We are not suppose to do more than that,unless you want us to.
God chooses us,he calls his children to him.
I am so glad that you don't dislike christians.

 

[bob]

...through the ages there have been thousands of examples of Christians with more compassionate toward their family, friends, and fellow human beings than atheists. That is a fact.

Unfortunately, you do not know that as a fact, for you are apparently unaware of any atheist contemporaries of your "hero's of the faith". Your fact is merely an opinion.
I was a believer for 25 years. I have read of such "hero's";
Richard Warmbrand
David Branard
Jonathan Edwards
Reese Howells
Watchman Nee
Jessie Penn Lewis
Madam Geyon
Jonathon Livingston
John Bunyon
Foxes Book of Martyrs
I have read about them. They are dead. I did not personally encounter them. A couple hundred years from now, the likes of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jack Hyles will most likely be on the list of recommended reading for christians. These men do not display any qualities that I find worthy of emulating.
I am talking about the christian in front of me at the grocery store and the christian here on the forum. Gary Bee, I had been here only a week when a christian called me an idiot. So, why would I want to be a part of a group of people who are not going to treat me any different than the group I am in treats them?

 

[Guest]

:Fade-color P.S. I am not in any occult or false religion. A christian started
coming to my house right out of the blue after my heart began changing
towards God. The Bible was amazingly alive to me after that.
Glory to God,amen.

 

[Gary]

Spending time with people with no "qualities" you want

bob: "... I am just saying that I do not find any qualities in christians that attract me to christianity. "

Gary: Interesting. Do you often spend hours and hours around people you don't like? As most people on this forum are Christian, you must set very high standards for those "qualities" you think we should exhibit.

bob: Perhaps I should have said that I don't find the christian mind set to be desirable. For the most part, they are just people who believe in something I do not. They do not display any qualities that would make me stop and take notice. In general, if they didn't open their mouth, I would not know they were chriustian. And for you information, I do not dislike christians. Does any of this make sense to you?

Gary: Yes, I understand what you are saying. Does it make sense? Not at all. You have repeated it several times in different ways. However, you have still not answered the question. Why do you spend hours and hours online writing responses and debating and interacting with people you consider, in general, to have no qualities you desire and people you believe "...do not display any qualities that would make me stop and take notice"? Those are your words. You have not explained why, by CHOICE, you spend time with us and the many Christians here on this forum.

 

[Gary]

Atheist "heroes" and Christian "heroes"

Gary: "...through the ages there have been thousands of examples of Christians with more compassionate toward their family, friends, and fellow human beings than atheists. That is a fact."

Bob: Unfortunately, you do not know that as a fact, for you are apparently unaware of any atheist contemporaries of your "hero's of the faith". Your fact is merely an opinion.

Gary: Wrong again. Fortunately, I have shown you "facts". I have listed several books which document the lives of HUNDREDS of Christians that I admire. So far you have not produced a SINGLE rebuttal neither have you listed your "heroes" of atheism. Why not try do that?

Bob: I was a believer for 25 years. I have read of such "hero's"; Richard Warmbrand, David Branard, Jonathan Edwards, Reese Howells, Watchman Nee, Jessie Penn Lewis, Madam Geyon, Jonathon Livingston, John Bunyon, Foxes Book of Martyrs.

Gary: Why not list a few of the books that you have read about them? Let's compare notes. Let's see if any exhibit "qualities" that you may find attractive. OK?

Bob: I have read about them. They are dead. I did not personally encounter them.

Gary: I have included in my list of books and personalities and people who ARE still alive and people I have personally met. There are many books about Christians still living which show and demonstrate "qualities" that are Christ-like and that I desire

Bob: A couple hundred years from now, the likes of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jack Hyles will most likely be on the list of recommended reading for christians. These men do not display any qualities that I find worthy of emulating.

Gary: There are hundreds and hundreds of still-living Christians that I would try and emulate before those you mention. Are you also trying to suggest that history will re-write the story about people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson? Why would the same not be true for your atheist "heroes"?

Bob: I am talking about the christian in front of me at the grocery store and the christian here on the forum. Gary Bee, I had been here only a week when a christian called me an idiot. So, why would I want to be a part of a group of people who are not going to treat me any different than the group I am in treats them?

Gary: Bob, I have already shown you how illogical your conclusion is. Why do you spend time with and be part of a group of people you believe treat you badly? As an atheist, your actions and use of time is questionable and illogical.

(P.S. How do you know that the person in front of you in the grocery store is a Christian?)

Peace.

 

[Gary]

Calling Bob an idiot

Bob: Gary Bee, I had been here only a week when a christian called me an idiot.

Gary: That is not long ago. Please point me to that post. It is obviously something which is discouraged here and not the norm. As all posts are logged, it sould be easy to find. Why not prove your statement?

 

[bob]

Yes, I understand what you are saying. Does it make sense? Not at all. You have repeated it several times in different ways. However, you have still not answered the question. Why do you spend hours and hours online writing responses and debating and interacting with people you consider, in general, to have no qualities you desire and people you believe "...do not display any qualities that would make me stop and take notice"? Those are your words. You have not explained why, by CHOICE, you spend time with us and the many Christians here on this forum.

I have often asked my self that question. The only explanation I have is that I enjoy the debate. I also spend time at an ex christian forum. I hope that satisfies your seemingly intense curiosity about why I visit this forum. I don't go to church. My experience there tells me that most in attendance are not interested in a dialogue. Even when I was a believer I enjoyed debating with those from different denominations. I consider it a hobby.

through the ages there have been thousands of examples of Christians with more compassionate toward their family, friends, and fellow human beings than atheists. That is a fact."

Unfortunately, you do not know that as a fact, for you are apparently unaware of any atheist contemporaries of your "hero's of the faith". Your fact is merely an opinion.

Wrong again. Fortunately, I have shown you "facts". I have listed several books which document the lives of HUNDREDS of Christians that I admire. So far you have not produced a SINGLE rebuttal neither have you listed your "hero's" of atheism. Why not try do that?

I may have misunderstood your initial post. Are you saying that christians are more compassionate, or are you saying that there is more documentation about christian compassion. If it is the latter, you would be correct in your statement about it being a fact. If it is the former, you would have no facts, therefore would not be able to make a factual statement comparing the compassion level between christians and atheists.

Why not list a few of the books that you have read about them? Let's compare notes. Let's see if any exhibit "qualities" that you may find attractive. OK?

I am not saying that these people did not have good qualities. But most of the books I have read about these christians is so tied to their evangelism, or their faith. Richard Warmbrand had incredible faith that sustained him for something like 14 years in a Romanian prison (it has been years since I read "In Gods Underground" so I may be incorrect on these facts). He may still be alive, but I think he was in prison back in the 50's. I think he was one of the few ever to come out alive. I wept as I read of his faith. It was an incredibly moving story. But he was one man, and I never met him.
I have a list of 12 names in the front of my old Scofield bible. I have had the bible since about 1980. These names are of christians who made an impact on my life when I was a christian. I looked up to them. They were my spiritual leaders when I was young in the faith. There are 10 men and 2 women. As I look at the list now, remembering things they said or attitudes they displayed, I can easily scratch off 9 of the 12 people. I can now see that they were not what I or they made them out to be. Some were selfish, thought more of themselves than they should. Some were far to closed minded for my taste, not willing to even consider another possible meaning to a verse or passage of scripture.
All that is left on my list is 1 man and both women. But when I strip away the faith, all that is left is just nice people who cared for me.
So I guess my question to you would be, if these people you mentioned had no ministry, but were just nice christians, would you be reading about them? My guess is no. What makes them hero's of the faith is the impact their ministry had. Nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't impress me.

There are hundreds and hundreds of still-living Christians that I would try and emulate before those you mention. Are you also trying to suggest that history will re-write the story about people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson? Why would the same not be true for your atheist "hero's"?

Not at all. What I am saying is that I have listened to these men. I have watched them in action. I am sure their followers love them. I just see something very different than their followers see. I see men who want to limit the freedoms of those they disagree with or consider "sinners". I see men who have built vast empires and made millions off of their followers. I see men who posses such incredible influence over millions of people, and that scares me. I am sure there will be numerous books about these men. How accurate or revealing they are will depend on the author.

Bob, I have already shown you how illogical your conclusion is. Why do you spend time with and be part of a group of people you believe treat you badly? As an atheist, your actions and use of time is questionable and illogical.

You have not shown me anything at all concerning my conclusions. All you have shown me is that you don't understand why I am the way I am. And gee dad, I'll try to make better use of my time.

(P.S. How do you know that the person in front of you in the grocery store is a Christian?)

How would you know the person in front of you at the grocery store was a christian? Think....perhaps you actually know them...?

Bob: Gary Bee, I had been here only a week when a christian called me an idiot.
Gary: That is not long ago. Please point me to that post. It is obviously something which is discouraged here and not the norm. As all posts are logged, it sould be easy to find. Why not prove your statement?

I have looked. Unfortunately when I look at the list of my previous posts, it does not show the entire post, just a portion of it. I have to click on each post to see where it is. I'm not willing to do that to prove to you that a christian called me an idiot. If you don't believe me, then just ignore it. I have seen a couple other christians get warnings from the mods about their language (cursing). But again, no proof is necessary. Either you believe me or you don't.

 

[Gary]

Debate with someone "who does not have any qualities you desire and who does not even make you stop and take notice".

Gary: Why do you spend hours and hours online writing responses and debating and interacting with people you consider, in general, to have no qualities you desire and people you believe "...do not display any qualities that would make me stop and take notice"?

Bob: "...The only explanation I have is that I enjoy the debate."

Gary: Hmm.. so you enjoy debating with people with NO qualities you desire and you enjoy debating with people who do not display any qualities that would make you stop and take notice. And what would the point of that be? To show how clever you are? Can you now see how illogical your reply on this topic actually is? You also claim that most Christians at church are not interested in dialogue. As you have already branded all Christians as having no qualities that "make me stop and take notice", is that any small wonder?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob: "..you are apparently unaware of any atheist contemporaries of your "hero's of the faith".

Gary: I am STILL waiting for you to produce a SINGLE one of your atheist heroes. Remember to list the books about these heroes which you have read.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob: Are you saying that christians are more compassionate, or are you saying that there is more documentation about christian compassion. If it is the latter, you would be correct in your statement about it being a fact. If it is the former, you would have no facts, therefore would not be able to make a factual statement comparing the compassion level between christians and atheists.

Gary: It is the former. And I can show you the facts. Firstly, there are more documented cases of Christian compassion. That is a fact. Secondly, it is very obvious for most people when they consider the origination of the organisations which perform compassionate activities in the world. Most have been started by Christians. Most are run by Christians. I can of course list many organisations like that. Maybe you would like to try and name a few world-wide COMPASSION-driven organisations started and run by atheists.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob: I have a list of 12 names in the front of my old Scofield bible. I have had the bible since about 1980. These names are of christians who made an impact on my life when I was a christian. I looked up to them. They were my spiritual leaders when I was young in the faith. There are 10 men and 2 women. As I look at the list now, remembering things they said or attitudes they displayed, I can easily scratch off 9 of the 12 people. I can now see that they were not what I or they made them out to be. Some were selfish, thought more of themselves than they should. Some were far to closed minded for my taste, not willing to even consider another possible meaning to a verse or passage of scripture.

Gary: As you have not listed the people nor the books about them, it is impossible to comment. Again, your remarks lack proof. If you are interested in debate (as you claimed), you will have to tighten up on your references and examples. Otherwise, it is not debate. It is unsubstantiated opinion.

Bob: All that is left on my list is 1 man and both women. But when I strip away the faith, all that is left is just nice people who cared for me.

Gary: Again, only opinion. No names, no verifiable facts.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob: So I guess my question to you would be, if these people you mentioned had no ministry, but were just nice christians, would you be reading about them? My guess is no.

Gary: Your guess was totally wrong. The answer is YES! You obviously did not even look at nor research the books that I described. If you had, you would not have made this comment.

Bob: What makes them hero's of the faith is the impact their ministry had. Nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't impress me.

Gary: What impressed me was WHO the person was. His/her qualities. It is BECAUSE of those qualities that I am impressed. In fact, if you had even spent a few minutes reviewing the books I recommended, you MAY have noticed that a few of the people mention are not even Christians! So again, your assumption about their "ministry" is obviously wrong.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob: ...I'm not willing to do that to prove to you that a christian called me an idiot.

Gary: Fine. Then, as in any reasonable debate, we will ignore your comment as it is again unsubstantiated.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peace.....
Your debating Christian friend!