[_ Old Earth _] Gen 1 ?. The "1st light", 3 days before the sun

[Orion]

But you are making an even bigger assumption, and one that is not even founded in scripture. There is nothing to even really hint at such a vastly different physical world and universe as you are believing. Now, I cannot and will not give an opinion of the "new heavens and new earth" and how God MAY set it up in terms of "physics", but because it MAY be different in the future absolutely does not mean that the time during Eden was any different then now.

It is all based upon nothing. At least with what science currently knows about the speed of light, constancy of linear time, and radioactive decay, it isn't assumption to see that it has always been this way.

 

[dad]

But you are making an even bigger assumption, and one that is not even founded in scripture.

That is false, the fact that this universe is temporary, and a different one is coming is not even an open question. The fact that the past was different also is clear enough a child could realize it.

There is nothing to even really hint at such a vastly different physical world and universe as you are believing.

The flood, the tower of Babel, eternal life, long lifespans, plants created, and a garden planted days before we ate off the trees, angels marrying earth girls, etc etc. That is vastly different from anything that now goes on.

Now, I cannot and will not give an opinion of the "new heavens and new earth" and how God MAY set it up in terms of "physics", but because it MAY be different in the future absolutely does not mean that the time during Eden was any different then now.

Except for the tree of life was in both, and eternal life is in both, and different plant growth rates are in both, and spirits are in both, etc etc etc. The future is the key to understanding the past, not the present as you have assumed.

It is all based upon nothing. At least with what science currently knows about the speed of light, constancy of linear time, and radioactive decay, it isn't assumption to see that it has always been this way.

Your whole point is that this same present works as it now does, so it could never be any different, but you have no proof at all for that claim. Why make stuff up??

 

[Barbarian]

The fantasy future that so called science speaks of with crashing galaxies,

What's this, then?

Maybe His universe is a bit greater than you're willing to grant Him.

 

[dad]

What's this, then?

Maybe His universe is a bit greater than you're willing to grant Him.

That seems to be a slice of an area of sky that best can be described as looking like a heart! (see top left)
We could get more detailed, but you didn't, why should I?

 

[Barbarian]

As you see, crashing galaxies turn out to be a fact.

 

[dad]

As you see, crashing galaxies turn out to be a fact.

A couple of points. First, even if there were, as thought, galaxies now crashing, that would be only in this state universe. The created true nature state is different. Next, it takes more than a picture to prove that the galaxy even is crashing. There may be other interpretations.
Our galaxy, the center of the universe, and future home of the Almighty Himself right on earth here, will never crash. Neither will our sun burn out.

 

[Barbarian]

A couple of points. First, even if there were, as thought, galaxies now crashing,

That is what we observe happening.

that would be only in this state universe.

I'm sure that there are many imaginary universes where it doesn't happen. But we happen to live in the real one.

The created true nature state is different. Next, it takes more than a picture to prove that the galaxy even is crashing. There may be other interpretations.

They are in fact, colliding. What other interpretation do you think is possible? Notice the emphasis. No imaginary stuff, unless you have evidence to support it.

Our galaxy, the center of the universe, and future home of the Almighty Himself right on earth here, will never crash.

Well, it's going to be a very long time. But several galaxies are on a collision course with us.

Neither will our sun burn out.

About 4.5 billion years. It's a rather ordinary main sequence star, and they live about 10 billion years, when they are the size of our sun.

 

[dad]

That is what we observe happening.

Since you enjoy making that claim, why not expound upon it for us here. Why is it exactly that you think they are crashing? I mean, remember, science has only really observed for a very short time here. How much crashing have we actually seen??

I'm sure that there are many imaginary universes where it doesn't happen. But we happen to live in the real one.

Where what didn't happen is the question! Creation happened. Many things happen and happened. I think you mean that crashing business you claim, but have not yet backed up.

They are in fact, colliding. What other interpretation do you think is possible? Notice the emphasis. No imaginary stuff, unless you have evidence to support it.

Well, that depends on the actual facts. For example, do we know some stars there are moving the one way, and other stars are moving the other way, and, so, we can plot the paths, and determine a crash? Or ...??? Why exactly do you say it is 'crashing'?

Well, it's going to be a very long time. But several galaxies are on a collision course with us.

You claim that present courses will also be in effect in the coming new universe. Fine. I guess all you need to do is prove that this temporary state universe will be here forever. Any time now, would be good. This I gotta see.

About 4.5 billion years. It's a rather ordinary main sequence star, and they live about 10 billion years, when they are the size of our sun.

I have heard that fairy tale. Easy to tell such a funny story. But the bible says the earth is forever, and the sun. Why would we believe your imagination here??

WE could look at the spin of an atom. Is there something that says atoms in the new heavens state will have that same spin?? No. Neither is there any reason to think a change in the fundamental forces, and laws, and light, and the fabric of space time itself we know in this present state physical only universe could be the same! Forget predictions of it all rotating, orbiting, and etc etc etc the same as now, UNLESS you prove that this universe will be, contrary to the bible, in the same state.

 

[blunthitta4life]

Dad please provide some sort of SPECIFIC explanation for what you've said:

Creatures created mostly in Eden, including man. Some were made for the earth at large, likely to help get it suitable one day for us to spread out from Eden.

Man sinned, and fell, and the plan was changed, we got the boot, and had a planet that was not really all that habitable. By then, trilobites, or etc were already starting to die, and in the fossil record. We spread out, and the succession of life that followed reflects that in the record. Most of it, then, would be pre flood.

hat is false, the fact that this universe is temporary,

So is the whole universe going to end? Please provide scripture or something.

Our galaxy, the center of the universe, and future home of the Almighty Himself right on earth here, will never crash. Neither will our sun burn out.

Provide proof that the milky way is the center of the universe.

Fine. I guess all you need to do is prove that this temporary state universe will be here forever. Any time now, would be good. This I gotta see.

And all you have to do is provide proof that the physics of the universe has changed. Good luck.

The bottom line here is that Dad has a theory that only a book and no physical evidence can explain.

 

[dad]

Dad please provide some sort of SPECIFIC explanation for what you've said:

Quote:
Creatures created mostly in Eden, including man. Some were made for the earth at large, likely to help get it suitable one day for us to spread out from Eden.
Like man, we were put in Eden only at first. Not all over the world. We would not expect to find early fossils all over the world of man.

Quote:
Man sinned, and fell, and the plan was changed, we got the boot, and had a planet that was not really all that habitable. By then, trilobites, or etc were already starting to die, and in the fossil record. We spread out, and the succession of life that followed reflects that in the record. Most of it, then, would be pre flood.
Prov 8 mentions a lady that watched the creation of God. She also mentions a habitable part of the earth. Not all was then habitable, hence the need for a garden for us.

Quote:
hat is false, the fact that this universe is temporary,
This heavens will pass away as the bible says, and we will have a new earth, and a new heavens. When? In about 1000 years after the return of Christ.

So is the whole universe going to end? Please provide scripture or something.

It will be different. This world as is will pass away, and be made 'new'. The heavens will also pass away, and we will have a new heavens. (universe)

Provide proof that the milky way is the center of the universe.

Earth is. The proof is that God Himself ill move here forever someday. At the moment, in this present state, it is not obvious.

And all you have to do is provide proof that the physics of the universe has changed. Good luck.

The bottom line here is that Dad has a theory that only a book and no physical evidence can explain.[/quote]

If I had a science claim on the past or future state of the universe, same or different, yes I would, as you DO need to do that. All I do is point out that you do not really have such a science claim at all! I have a bible case, and all I need is bible support and I have that in spades.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
That is what we observe happening.

Since you enjoy making that claim, why not expound upon it for us here.

You can learn more about it here:
http://orca.phys.uvic.ca/~patton/openho ... sions.html

[quote[Why is it exactly that you think they are crashing? [/quote]

They are moving together at high speeds. Yes, we can measure such things.

I mean, remember, science has only really observed for a very short time here. How much crashing have we actually seen??[/quote[

Innumberable examples. In the time we've been able to see them precisely, perhaps millions of miles of crashing.

Barbarian on dad's "other universes":
I'm sure that there are many imaginary universes where it doesn't happen. But we happen to live in the real one.

Where what didn't happen is the question!

"In dad's imaginary universe." is the answer.

Creation happened.

It happened it the real universe too, dad. Just not the way you want.

Barbarian observes:
They are in fact, colliding. What other interpretation do you think is possible? Notice the emphasis. No imaginary stuff, unless you have evidence to support it.

Well, that depends on the actual facts.

If you don't know the facts, what makes you think you have an alternative interpretation?

For example, do we know some stars there are moving the one way, and other stars are moving the other way,

Yep. Of course, we can also use the same method to show the direction and velocity of the galaxy as a whole. Doppler effect. And now is the time for dad to stop stalling, and show us his alternative explanation, based on facts.

and, so, we can plot the paths, and determine a crash?

Yes. And now it's time for dad to stop stalling, and to show us his alternative explanation.

Or ...??? Why exactly do you say it is 'crashing'?

Two objects colliding at high speed.

Barbarian observes:
Well, it's going to be a very long time. But several galaxies are on a collision course with us.

You claim that present courses will also be in effect in the coming new universe.

In your imaginary universes, who knows? We can only say things about the real one.

Barbarian on the remaining life of the Sun:
About 4.5 billion years. It's a rather ordinary main sequence star, and they live about 10 billion years, when they are the size of our sun.

I have heard that fairy tale.

It's very well established. We know, based on physics, how long it takes to burn elements from hydrogen to carbon (which is as far as our sun can go), after which it burns out.

Easy to tell such a funny story. But the bible says the earth is forever, and the sun.

It says the earth can't move, and has pillars holding it up. But we learned a long time ago that much of it is figurative.

WE could look at the spin of an atom. Is there something that says atoms in the new heavens state will have that same spin?? No. Neither is there any reason to think a change in the fundamental forces, and laws, and light, and the fabric of space time itself we know in this present state physical only universe could be the same! Forget predictions of it all rotating, orbiting, and etc etc etc the same as now, UNLESS you prove that this universe will be, contrary to the bible, in the same state.

I think "if it doesn't deny it in scripture, it must be true" is poor reasoning.

 

[dad]

Barbarian observes:
That is what we observe happening.

Quote:
Since you enjoy making that claim, why not expound upon it for us here.


You can learn more about it here:
http://orca.phys.uvic.ca/~patton/openho ... sions.html

Very funny. I saw nothing there but a few paragraphs that echo the story, not support it. Why not show us what you think I missed? The link from your site to another did mention that the galaxy was in the 'early stages' of joining with another. Face it, we have only observed, what was it, since Hubble?? Not a lot of time to make huge conclusions.

If the universe state were to change, and you can't speak to that at all, the course of the galaxy could be different. You are left with a case that depends only on a claimed state of the past or future universe you simply can't back up! Thanks for illustrating that real nice for us here. What a scream!
Now, what we do have is a pattern in the heavens that needs interpreting. The interpretation is very different if the universe was or will not be the same state of physical only.
We could look it it one of a few ways, if it were different.
1) The state of matter, and gravity, and all forces were different, so what we see cannot be explained by the present state, and also will again be different one day.
Or,
2) the state of the universe was different even affecting time as we get far from earth, the center of the universe. This means we could be watching a creation rewind! That galaxy, in this scenario, would not be coming together. It may be moving apart, if we 'rewind the movie'!
Either way, your speculations on what must be happening based solely on assuming a present state are pure religion.

[quote[Why is it exactly that you think they are crashing?

They are moving together at high speeds. Yes, we can measure such things.[/quote]



No, you can't save by measuring with an assumption you can't begin to prove, and that is contrary to the word.

[quote:baf27]I mean, remember, science has only really observed for a very short time here. How much crashing have we actually seen??[/quote[

Innumberable examples. In the time we've been able to see them precisely, perhaps millions of miles of crashing.

False. That is only what you think you see based on using your assumption to interpret. A fair look at the actual facts says nothing of the sort! It simply says that it appears to be moving a certain direction in the present. Stick to that, and forget your silly anti bible fables.

Barbarian on dad's "other universes":
I'm sure that there are many imaginary universes where it doesn't happen. But we happen to live in the real one.

Quote:
Where what didn't happen is the question!


"In dad's imaginary universe." is the answer.

Like heaven? The coming new heavens? That is like saying that everything a blind lady can't see is imaginary. You just are severely limited in perception of the past and future, so you make stuff up!

Quote:
Creation happened.


It happened it the real universe too, dad. Just not the way you want.

The real universe, despite your baseless claims, includes the spiritual! It also includes a past and future universe state you can know nothing of!!! Your claims are like those of Buzz Lightyear, claiming he can go to infinity and beyond!!! Nonsense! You can only operate in the temporary state that is quite real, but not all that will be or was real. Science has NOTHING it can say about it, much less you!

Barbarian observes:
They are in fact, colliding. What other interpretation do you think is possible? Notice the emphasis. No imaginary stuff, unless you have evidence to support it.

Quote:
Well, that depends on the actual facts.


If you don't know the facts, what makes you think you have an alternative interpretation?

I never said I didn't know, I say you don't. Why not prove otherwise and put your knowledge on the table here and now, rather than vague and silly bluster?? Really.

Quote:
For example, do we know some stars there are moving the one way, and other stars are moving the other way,


Yep. Of course, we can also use the same method to show the direction and velocity of the galaxy as a whole. Doppler effect. And now is the time for dad to stop stalling, and show us his alternative explanation, based on facts.

Show us some details of why you think the Doppler effect helps your case for a same state past. I call you out, enough vague and empty words. Clouds without rain.

Quote:
and, so, we can plot the paths, and determine a crash?


Yes. And now it's time for dad to stop stalling, and to show us his alternative explanation.

Already done in this post. Here it is again in case you missed it

1) The state of matter, and gravity, and all forces were different, so what we see cannot be explained by the present state, and also will again be different one day.
Or,
2) the state of the universe was different even affecting time as we get far from earth, the center of the universe. This means we could be watching a creation rewind! That galaxy, in this scenario, would not be coming together. It may be moving apart, if we 'rewind the movie'!

Quote:
Or ...??? Why exactly do you say it is 'crashing'?


Two objects colliding at high speed.

Barbarian observes:
Well, it's going to be a very long time. But several galaxies are on a collision course with us.

Quote:
You claim that present courses will also be in effect in the coming new universe.


In your imaginary universes, who knows? We can only say things about the real one.

So you think all but the present is imaginary, unless it is precisely like the present! I see. Interesting dream. Let's see you extend the present to infinity and beyond as you claim. What a story.

It's very well established. We know, based on physics, how long it takes to burn elements from hydrogen to carbon (which is as far as our sun can go), after which it burns out.

We all know what would happen if this universe stayed the same state, so?? That is not going to happen, and you have nothing but a silly and very baseless claim it will. Good news, a new universe or heavens is really coming that is the eternal state. The real nature state. The created state.

Quote:
Easy to tell such a funny story. But the bible says the earth is forever, and the sun.


It says the earth can't move, and has pillars holding it up. But we learned a long time ago that much of it is figurative.

No, we haven't. The earth is forever, and will never be moved any more than the righteous will be moved! It will have the surface burned with fire to make it clean and new, and our bodies likely will also die before we reach that eternal state, but that changes nothing. We shall not, we shall not be moved. Really. As for pillars..
"Definition


1. pillar, column
1. pillar
2. column, upright
3. column (of smoke) "
http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=05982

Now, it could be referring to the time when the heavens will pass away, and earth burned with fire, except the foundations, or pillars, which are forever!!!! Thanks for that!
"Psalms 75:3

The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved…
Or "melted" the inhabitants, through fear and dread of the righteous Judge, appearing in the clouds of heaven, and of the wrath that is coming on they are deserving of; and the earth, through fire, when the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, the elements melt with fervent heat, and the earth and the works therein shall be burnt up, (2 Peter 3:10-12) .

I bear up the pillars of it.:
so that it shall not utterly perish; "
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view. ... 75&verse=3

Quote:
WE could look at the spin of an atom. Is there something that says atoms in the new heavens state will have that same spin?? No. Neither is there any reason to think a change in the fundamental forces, and laws, and light, and the fabric of space time itself we know in this present state physical only universe could be the same! Forget predictions of it all rotating, orbiting, and etc etc etc the same as now, UNLESS you prove that this universe will be, contrary to the bible, in the same state.


I think "if it doesn't deny it in scripture, it must be true" is poor reasoning.

[/quote:baf27]
The temporary state of the heavens and earth, and man is pretty clear. Our atoms must be going to be somewhat changed, to live forever!!! "We shall be changed"

 

[Barbarian]

Um, dad? Buzz Lightyear is fictional, like your imaginary universes. He's not a real person.

Fantasy is not a suitable vehicle for learning the truth.

 

[Orion]

Now I remember why I stopped debating with Dad. I choose not to delve into someone else's imaginary mind and prefer to speak with those who are interested in the natural world/universe and what those teach us. Fiction is fun to read, but anyone who builds their whole belief structure on fiction is. . . . well rather childish. You are right, Dad, when you said that a child could understand your world. But I'm an adult and know better.

 

[dad]

Um, dad? Buzz Lightyear is fictional, like your imaginary universes. He's not a real person.

Fantasy is not a suitable vehicle for learning the truth.

Right, and he can no more really go into the past or future, and tell us the state than you can!

 

[dad]

Now I remember why I stopped debating with Dad. I choose not to delve into someone else's imaginary mind and prefer to speak with those who are interested in the natural world/universe and what those teach us.

I like the present natural world as well, but do not pretend we know it will exist in the far future.

Fiction is fun to read, but anyone who builds their whole belief structure on fiction is. . . . well rather childish.

Thank you, and I say it is time for a change. Has not man had near enough of fables, instead of the truth?

You are right, Dad, when you said that a child could understand your world. But I'm an adult and know better.

My world is right here and right now, and has all the laws we all know. We all live in the same world, and that is not even an issue. Do not think you can cling to it's skirt, and end up in the past or future.
Present reality has clear and present limits, beyond the which, no science can go, save by dreams, and assumptions.

 

[Barbarian]

Orion, I think you're right.

 

[papajoe]

Most everyone who believes in a literal 6 day Genesis creation talks about how there was no sun (our star) for the first 3 days, which was created on the 4th day, but that God was the source of light.

What exactly was that source of light, and where was it situated? You see, I have a problem with this light actually coming from God since it would be uni-directional, not omni-directional. If the light WAS coming from God, who is said to be omnipresent, then there would be no place where there would be darkness at all. If the light was God, then you could only conclude that where there was darkness, God was not there, thus God couldn't be omnipresent.

So, where did this first light come from, before the sun was set in it's place?

Just so you know, I don't hold to a literal Genesis account of creation.

Orion
At first the huge primordial cloud containing all the elements, but mostly hydrogen was dark. Then the inner planets, primarily the earth, which are of heavy stuff and much smaller that the sun began to form.
So the earth began to condense first, getting very hot, enough to glow and give off light.
The sun being so much larger and of lighter stuff (hydrogen) took longer to condense and then to “light upâ€Â.

 

[Ted]

The story of creation, or should I say the two stories of creation, in the Bible are myth. They were adapted, from other eastern tribes, by the Hebrew people in order to explain what they did not understand.

However, this does not mean they are not true. Truth does not have to relate to historicity. Myth is a story designed to teach a truth. The truth of Genesis' creation stories is that God did it. Good teachers know that metaphor is a very good way of teaching truth. Something does not have to be historically accurate to be true. Borg, Crossan, Pannikar, Cobb etc.

Shalom
Ted :D