getting into church, hypocrisy

[Christ_empowered]

Let me start by saying that, to a certain extent, all Christians are hypocrites. We all sin, we all fall short. That's not the issue...

...my issue is the extent, the depth and breadth of hypocrisy, that I've seen. I was saved by Teen Challenge. Well, OK...they planted the seeds, then this forum helped, then I was called to repentance, and...its kinda complicated, I guess.

I love the Teen Challenge people. Really, I do. They saved me from a state mental hospital or several years vegetating on "mental health probation" (read: group home, high dose Haldol shots), and they taught me the very beginnings of how to be normal, how to be a man, how to be a Christian. Good stuff, and I needed the program.

But there's hypocrisy to contend with. Dudes praising The Lord, then snorting drugs, popping pills, injecting stuff. Staff embezzling, mismanaging, engaging in sexual sin. Students dismissed from the program because they angered a staff member. Staff looking the other way if somebody's parents were big "donors."

On and on it goes. To be fair, Teen Challenge is a diverse program; Teen Challenge A is a lot different from Teen Challenge B, and Teen Challenge today is a far cry from what the late, great Rev. David Wilkerson founded and intended. If I recall correctly, he distanced himself from the organization a while before his death....

Also, with Teen Challenge, you're dealing with a weird mix of people. Young, older, middle-aged; convicts, people from upper class homes, people from all ranges of the middle class. The men only programs seem to have a little too much testosterone going around, at least the one I went to did...

..I guess my point is that TC doesn't represent church, but aspects of the program make me wonder. Now that Christ has been kind enough to restore my senses unto me (plus a little extra!), I'm starting to wonder...

...do we need church? do I? Would I be better off with some kind of low-key, informal Bible Study group, without all the hierarchy and what not? Has Christianity, in this day and age, maybe for some people more than others, become a largely solitary pursuit?

Because, I also think back to the little Presby Church when I was younger. It was dead, I just didn't know it until years later. Female elders, back stabbing, social class issues, not a single non-white person in sight...

...and that's not unusual (not just for Presbyterians, either). Would I maybe be better off here, on CFnet, and talking to my friend and spiritual mentor? I do get to do classes @ Liberty online, which means I'm required to take some Christian classes. Unlike most people, I get the opportunity to do college-level Bible study...and get credit towards a useful degree.

I tried to go to church when I lived in a different state. I had a counselor who was also a minister. Calvinist Baptist (I didn't know that combination was possible until I met him). So, I went to his church. I was living in a little, decent, non-descript apartment complex with money provided by my parents. I wasn't living large, but I wasn't in poverty, either.

So, I was on the church van going..somewhere, a revival, maybe...and I overheard this girl in front of me say that I was "living off welfare."

That stings to this day. First off, welfare is there so people who need it don't starve. Secondly, my people were taking care of me. Thirdly, this is apparently what passes for Christianity in this day and age.

The last time I went to church was a local mega-church. I was with my uber-respectable, white collar dad. I was dressed OK, I even had expensive shoes on. Comments were made, under people's breath. Did I mention I am/was something of a pariah around here?

Being in recovery from crazy doesn't help. So..you don't work? Your white collar people take care of you? You get to go back to school? All sorts of confusion. I get the sense that a lot of people can deal with impoverished crazy people, they can deal with stupid crazy people, they can deal with all that, but "crazy" people in transition from patient to person, just another member of the community? Not so much. Society isn't big on that, and neither are churches.

Ugh. Any advice, comments, etc. y'all would like to give me would be much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

I'll have to make a copy and go through for a few comments, but you're going through a normal part of growing up in Christ, only most people (at some point before, during or after where you are at ) GIVE IN to the hypocrisy, the whitewashing, the deceit, the sin within the lives that instead of being repented of is wickedly excused instead. (or, as love hopes for the best for the sinner, they 'go along' until some point and then when they have the courage or make up their mind or God grants them the grace or all of the above, they repent and sin no more. but this, living right, as God says to live, IS RARE, VERY RARE).
(and necessary. God doesn't say to just do what you want to do until you feel like doing what He says! He says effectively, "Choose today who you will serve". (then He keeps re-scheduling "TODAY" over and over and over again, in His mercy, because we are so slow to listen to Him and do what He says! SUCH GRACE HE SHOWS US ALL!) .......

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Let me start by saying that, to a certain extent, all Christians are hypocrites. We all sin, we all fall short. That's not the issue...

______to some extent, this is true more often than not. as it is written, there are more hypocrites than real joyful Christians.
it is partly the issue. being with real joyful (OBEDIENT) Christians is totally different than being lukewarm. We cannot be lukewarm and please God. (and being spewed out of His mouth is not a euphemism nor is it anything someone can recover from! it is final and eternal! (in my opinion from what God's Word is written).______

...my issue is the extent, the depth and breadth of hypocrisy, that I've seen. I was saved by Teen Challenge. Well, OK...they planted the seeds, then this forum helped, then I was called to repentance, and...its kinda complicated, I guess.

_________yes, 'complicated' - God may take decades, literally, for us individually,through many meetings with many different groups, or just one group, perhaps. Yhwh Knows. Like Richard Wurmbrand said "God used many different churches to lead me to Himself, even the catholic priests. But the catholic priests could not bring me to Christ, because they don't know Him. God used them though in my life(Wurmbrand's) to direct my steps at the time - to get me to go the direction He wanted me to go. There are more fakes than true people, more fake Christians than real ones, in this world we live in. (Just as in the days of Noah, for one example - wickedness is rampant, deception is beyond belief, staggering on earth in proportion and deadliness. It is a MIRACLE anyone at all is saved - GOD BE PRAISED SOME ARE SAVED ! ) ____

I love the Teen Challenge people. Really, I do. They saved me from a state mental hospital or several years vegetating on "mental health probation" (read: group home, high dose Haldol shots), and they taught me the very beginnings of how to be normal, how to be a man, how to be a Christian. Good stuff, and I needed the program.

____ "...I needed the program." yes, "we" who are saved needed what we went through, the people and the groups that helped us along the way, even if they weren't trying to help us! God directs all things, all groups, all individual actions and events and occurences, everything, and uses all , or may say turns all things, to the good, for the good, of those who LOVE GOD AND ARE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE." God uses everything around us, that we know and that we don't know, people and places and things, everything - robins and sparrows and earthworms and talking donkeys!!!! _____
(for our good IF we love Him and keep His commandments(by faith don't forget, but still with all our heart seek to obey and please Him willingly and joyfully )_____
.........
....
..
...do we need church? do I? Would I be better off with some kind of low-key, informal Bible Study group, without all the hierarchy and what not? Has Christianity, in this day and age, maybe for some people more than others, become a largely solitary pursuit?

______ yes, as God permits, and at times in our lives. Like you needed TC for a time. "low-key, informal Bible Study group" might be ideal, and delightful, and worth its weight in GOLD. interactive conversion amongst believers in Christ, intermingled lives IN UNION WITH ONE ANOTHER IN ABBA, is rare on earth, but is the "normal" daily walk of a believer. it is just not recognized nor practiced in most 501c3 churches or almost any group on earth. _____


Because, I also think back to the little Presby Church when I was younger. It was dead, I just didn't know it until years later. Female elders, back stabbing, social class issues, not a single non-white person in sight...

_______ most all the people on earth are in a 'dead' state of being - as we ALL once were "dead in our trespasses and sin"... it just takes time to realize this, and only those called by God, whether because they seek Him or He seeks us, are able to comprehend or see or grasp this. _________ (oh, because we all are dead to start with, that's why "REPENT, FOR the Kingdom of God is at hand" is always preached first and again and again by those sent by God ---- if people(we) don't truly REPENT, then there is no good in their(our) life, no life in their(and our) life without repentance) ______


............ .......
Ugh. Any advice, comments, etc. y'all would like to give me would be much appreciated. Thanks.

ug, gah, oohgah

hang in there ! --- keep trusting and seeking ABBA and trust Him still and always to direct all things, all of your directions and days are known by Him patiently and lovingly, and He SCHEDULED all of our days before the world was created !!! (HE's not surprised by all or anything we have gone through or have to go through.)

 

[Gary]

I love the Teen Challenge people. Really, I do. They saved me from a state mental hospital or several years vegetating on "mental health probation" (read: group home, high dose Haldol shots), and they taught me the very beginnings of how to be normal, how to be a man, how to be a Christian. Good stuff, and I needed the program.

But there's hypocrisy to contend with. Dudes praising The Lord, then snorting drugs, popping pills, injecting stuff. Staff embezzling, mismanaging, engaging in sexual sin. Students dismissed from the program because they angered a staff member. Staff looking the other way if somebody's parents were big "donors."

Ugh. Any advice, comments, etc. y'all would like to give me would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Maybe God is telling you it's time to move on and put TC behind you?


Matthew 23
1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,
2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.



1 Corinthians 13
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

.

 

[Edward]

Don't you judge those people brother! Those are God's children. Ok, so they have problems, that's a given and you are correct, but don't we all? They are at a different place in their walk, and God will judge or reward them accordingly. Do not be distracted by mundane problems of the world and others. Let the Lord deal with them in His own way. Stay focused upon the Lord Himself and you will not fall. ;)

 

[reba]

Taking notice of how people are in not a judgement ... What we do with that knowledge can be judgement. The different churches are made up of people ...People do a lot of dumb stuff. .. We all will say one thing and do another.. Emotions ... problems at home ... something as simple as coming down with a cold .. we some times say or do things we might not otherwise do/say.

There is a Scripture Jesus says Seek and you will find.... if we seek out the problems with one another we will find them. We should not be stupid and support ( in any way apart from prayer) a group or church that is totally messed up but we should look for what is good...

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Satan loves to get God's kids fighting with one another

 

[jasonc]

teen challenge is in my county, its all teens boys. I haven't seen them in a while.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I was having one of my moments of (un/dis)belief, honestly. For all our flaws, Christians are much better than the world. And I do think its high time I put TC behind me. I was called to repentance (trust me, I had to be called) 18 months ago. "It is not longer I who lives, it is Christ who lives in me." Who I was up to that moment died, including the semi-vegetative ex-mental patient I was at TC. I get a whole new life now.

I probably just need to get into church, pronto. Church isn't for perfect people; its for people who acknowledge that they need Jesus, right? Right. I have my own sin issues and what not, and I'm only a decent human being (something I'm proud of, btw) because of Christ's work in my life.

 

[reba]

 

[for_his_glory]

Philippians 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

This is what we all need to be doing as we keep our focus on that of Christ as we remain in the will of God. Our past in all its good or bad experiences is just that, the past. It no longer directs our future or even the now present as we learn from the past not to make the same mistakes, or we treasure the fond memories of the past, but yet it is the past. When we seek out Christ and become Spiritually born again as we confess and believe that Jesus died and was resurrected to sit at the right hand of God, God not only forgives our sin, but remembers our past no more. Our relationship is not TC or even the Church as our relationship is a personal one between you and Jesus. No one has the same relationship as we have all come to Him in one way or another. The Church (not four walls) is the body of Christ and needs to be edifying one another as we share with one another the word of God that we may learn through the Holy Spirit using others, but yet learn to Spiritually discern what is being taught us by others.

Christ_empowered, you have come a long way from where you were and now is the time to let go of the past and press towards the mark which is what God is calling you to do as a faithful servant.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.