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[_ Old Earth _] Give it up already

  • Thread starter Thread starter reznwerks
  • Start date Start date
sheseala said:
I'm trying to figure out how it can be contradictory. I wasn't aware that the means that God created and personal salvation through Jesus were things that were dependant on each other.

As an innocent by-stander, (hehehe), this statement is the one that makes more sense than all the others put together. Just accept it: What the ancients began and the modern churches perpetuate concerning creation are WRONG. Hey, it's not going to change the Salvation offered to you by God through His Son, it can only enhance the understanding of the world in which we live. If you have NO desire to understand this, just ignore it. But to continue to refute proven knowledge just makes your testimony that much harder to swallow and decreased your credibility in the eyes of those that we are supposed to be bringing to the Word.
 
(assertion that God's means of creation isn't very relevant to salvation)

As an innocent by-stander, (hehehe), this statement is the one that makes more sense than all the others put together. Just accept it: What the ancients began and the modern churches perpetuate concerning creation are WRONG.

You mean when Augustine and Origen and the others pointed out that Genesis wasn't literal, and when most Christian denominations accept that it isn't literal, that means we all have to become evolutionists to be saved?

Nonsense. Even if you're a creationist, God isn't going to send you to hell for it. Of course, if you tell people that the false doctrine of creationism is Christian doctrine, that is going to make it harder to bring them to God.

Why add an extra barrier that isn't even part of God's word?
 
Missed this reply.

The Barbarian said:
If you think that, you don't know very many scientists. Evidence is all that counts.

That's what I said,

Lastly, outside the scientific world, evidence doesn't win out.

Faith is useless in science, which can only make inferences on evidence. Most scientists are theists, but they can use it in their work.

I wasn't talking about scientists.
 
That's different. If you want to present it as a religion, it requires no evidence at all.

If you want to teach it as science in public schools, evidence will be required.
 
That's fine. But the part of my post you quoted wasn't addressing whether intelligent design should be in school, but reznwerck's assertion that "Facts trump beliefs all the time." He wasn't just talking about science, so I was showing why that was a foolish statement.
 
It's true. ID is highly resistant to facts, exactly because it's a religion.
 
Hello Barbarian:

I believe that one particular form of the Intelligent Design (ID) argument is both plausible (I pick this word carefully) and arguably within the domain of science. I do not want to repeat stuff I have written in other threads recently, so if you are interested please see (for example) http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 6&start=15.

Very briefly, the idea that an "intelligent agent" was responsible for establishing the initial conditions of our universe (as importantly distinguished from guiding evolution) seems both plausible and within the domain of science. I am interested in your opinion of what I have written in the thread that I have provided as a reference.
 
You're thinking of abiogenesis. That doesn't matter concerning evolution. The universe could have been sneezed out by a Dorito, evolution still exists and is still fact.
 
id

Drew said:
Hello Barbarian:


Very briefly, the idea that an "intelligent agent" was responsible for establishing the initial conditions of our universe (as importantly distinguished from guiding evolution) seems both plausible and within the domain of science. I am interested in your opinion of what I have written in the thread that I have provided as a reference.
Then is it also plausable that this "intelligent agent" has nothing in common with the bible God?
 
The Barbarian said:
Barbarian suggests to Solo:
Remember, you are not God. Let Him decide. And set your own wishes and doctrines aside.
I have God living inside of me, and he has taught me about false doctrines and false brethren.

He decides all things for me, and his doctrines are my doctrines. My wishes are that you and others would submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in all that you say and do.
 
Re: id

reznwerks said:
Then is it also plausable that this "intelligent agent" has nothing in common with the bible God?

According to most scientists that advocate intelligent design, yes.
 
I believe that one particular form of the Intelligent Design (ID) argument is both plausible (I pick this word carefully) and arguably within the domain of science. I do not want to repeat stuff I have written in other threads recently, so if you are interested please see (for example) http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 6&start=15.

Very briefly, the idea that an "intelligent agent" was responsible for establishing the initial conditions of our universe (as importantly distinguished from guiding evolution) seems both plausible and within the domain of science. I am interested in your opinion of what I have written in the thread that I have provided as a reference.

This is a very old idea in Christianity. We call it "creation", to distinguish it from mere "design", which is what limited creatures do.

One has to be careful in thinking about how God is involved in His creation; on one side, we have the idea that He started it up and walked away. That's not right; the Bible says a sparrow can't fall without His noticing. On the other hand, you can veer over into creationism, and imagine He tosses lightning bolts at his enemies.

He's involved directly in creation, but He doesn't tinker with it to make it work; it works as He intended. When a miracle happens, it's not because He has to do it to make it work, it's to teach us something.

I tend to agree with you, unless we don't agree on these relatively minor points.
 
Flagged up by popular demand 8-)

Here's an amazing menu of online evidence for a young Earth & universe:-:-
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/young.asp



Do hit their website - & the comprehensive 1 @ http://www.creationism.org

& a 2nd menu of articles there - http://www.creationism.org/articles/index.htm


& details of 21 books:- http://www.creationism.org/books/index.htm


& the ID one @ http://www.discovery.org/csc

& more books here:-
http://www.discovery.org/csc/essentialReadings.php

Here's their "Top Questions" link:-
http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestions.php

i]This 1 may be especially helpful:-[/i]
http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestio ... nEvolution

& this 1:-
http://www.discovery.org/csc/topQuestio ... gentDesign
 
I understand the ''workings'' of evolution....enough to agree that the evidence we see in what is called speciation and natural selection, is indeed fact, there is no way around it.

That adaptation and mutation exist is fact.
God created animals with the ability to adapt. The fall created mutation.

No, simply having DNA creates mutation. The Fall was a spiritual one, affecting humans. God did not punish innocent animals.

But nothing that has been offered has convinced me in this "molecules to me" is either probable, possible or even happened at all.

Clearly you don't understand evolutionary theory. It makes no claims about the origin of life. Never did. Darwin himself ascribed the origin of life to God.

We can create theory to fit what we believe the evidence is saying, but in fact, none of us were there and as such it cannot be proven that man and animals came from anywhere but exactly where the bible states.

Created by natural means? Yep. This is why Genesis is completely incompatible with YE creationism. It directly refutes the "Life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE.

From God during the 6 days of creation.

As far back as St. Augustine and Origen, Christians knew it wasn't a literal six days. YE creationism is a modern revision, created by Seventh-Day Adventists in the 20th century.
 
Dear all

I never thought in the past that I would be able to seamlessly intergrate Creation and Evolution, but now I have managed.

I believe the universe was created 13 billion years ago.
About 4 billion years ago, the earth agglomerated from space junk, and began cooling.
God then sent his brightest spark to earth to begin terraforming it in preparation for man.
Thus Lucifer was sent to earth, and maybe created algae first, to make oxygen.
This was time consuming, but as billions of years passed, enough oxygen was formed for larger life forms.
Lucifer genetically engineered new species, and these gradually got bigger, culminating in the dinosaurs of the Cretacious period.
The animals also got more violent, as Lucifer became Satan.
Then Lucifer started genetically engineering ape-men - possibly even to mock God.
God then destroyed the earth and it became "without form and void"
God then renewed the earth around 6000 years ago, with the creation of a new race of man, beginning with Adam. Some ape-men were around during Adam's lifetime - and these were known as the "sons of the gods" or Nephilim.
These interbred with the "sons of adam".
God wiped all out in a flood and renewed the eath once more with Noah, who was "pure in his generations" meaning not contaminated with the Nephilim genes of ape-men.

And so, all mankind on earth today is descended from Noah, Shem being the white races, Ham being the black races, and Japheths's line giving rise to the yellow races.

Look at all civilisations - the earliest being Babylon and Egypt. There is no more ancient civilisation of mankind (Adam's line) than about 6000 years old.
 
wingnut wrote:
I never thought in the past that I would be able to seamlessly intergrate Creation and Evolution, but now I have managed.

You may have managed to convince yourself that your theory “seamlessly intergrates Creation and Evolution,†but I think you will have a harder time integrating that into what those who believe in evolution hold to be true or what the Bible actually says.
 
http://www.crosswalk.com/pastors/11552410/

Worldviews: God Explains it All
Dr. Paul Dean

What do you believe and why do you believe it?

Such a question is basic to our very existence and all people must answer it in some way whether consciously or unconsciously.

To answer the question unconsciously is both to answer it and to ignore it at the same time.

To ignore the question is to answer it along these lines, “I only believe what I feel like believing at any given moment.â€Â

In other words, this individual has no coherent philosophical grid by which he approaches life in general except that he acts merely upon circumstantial feelings. This individual will live with philosophical inconsistencies and contradictions within his own mind without really caring or perhaps even knowing such to be the case.

Some take a more thoughtful approach and attempt to develop some sort of belief system.

In other words, they know what they believe and are often very committed to those beliefs. Yet, they are not so different from those who ignore the question, though they may conceive themselves as being different by virtue of the fact that they at least answer the first half of the question: what do you believe?

They are not so different because setting forth what one believes is not enough.

What one believes is irrelevant if he does not know why he believes it. If one does not know why he believes something then he is his own authority and has relegated himself to a position of relativism, or, to put it more aptly, arbitrariness. That is, he is philosophically uncertain about anything because he has no ground for what he believes.

He simply believes it because he believes it.

Others are more thoughtful still. Not only have they answered the first half of the question, but they have wrestled with the second half as well.

These individuals know what they believe and offer some justification for it. In other words, they have attempted to answer the question: why do you believe it?

They have consciously committed themselves to a particular worldview. Of course, those who ignore the question and those who answer only the first half have committed themselves to their respective worldviews to be sure.

The difference between those individuals and the one who wrestles with the “why†question is that the former are unconsciously committed to their worldviews and the latter is consciously committed to his worldview. The latter is attempting to make some sense out of his world.

There is yet another category to be brought forth momentarily.

The concept of “worldview†must be dealt with first. A “worldview†quite obviously has to do with the way a person looks at the world. In one sense, it is the totality of what one believes.

In another sense, it is the lens through which a person views the world or ultimate reality. It consists of one’s presuppositions or assumptions about the nature of our world.

A worldview is made up of those presuppositions that individuals believe without evidence or outside support; they are merely taken for granted or on faith.

Then there are those presuppositions or beliefs that persons hold to based on some kind of rationale. A person will always speak from his particular worldview whether he is conscious he is doing so or not, whether he is consistent or not, or whether he has determined to do so or not.

Everyone brings his worldview to the marketplace of ideas.

To pick up on the opening question once again is to put these issues in sharper focus. It is not difficult to see that the individual who has ignored the question has no ground for what he believes. And, it is perhaps quite clear that the one who has only set forth what he believes without asking why he believes it has no ground for what he believes either.

And yet, it is also true that the one who has answered both sides of the question, the one who knows what he believes and why, has no rational, philosophical ground for what he believes if he holds to any worldview other than a biblical worldview.

In other words, the one who does not presuppose the God of the bible has no ground for believing what he believes about anything. He has relegated himself to a life of intellectual futility and philosophical inconsistency.

By way of example, one committed to an evolutionary/naturalist worldview must live with philosophical contradictions.

He conceives of the universe as a box. The only things that exist are those things within the box. One may not go outside of the box to search for answers to anything or to explain anything. There is only the physical universe in which we live. There is nothing metaphysical. Thus, he says there is no God.

Yet, there are a number of things that he cannot justify on his worldview.

He presupposes laws of logic to engage in scientific method or have a conversation, etc...

But laws of logic are immaterial, that is, metaphysical and cannot be justified on his worldview.

He cannot justify concepts like honesty on his worldview though he presupposes those concepts in the reporting of data or in formulating hypotheses or theories, etc.

He violates his own worldview by presupposing the uniformity of nature though he says the origin of the universe was a random chance accident.

He posits a natural law that says matter and energy cannot come from nothing yet he says just that: the universe came from nothing.

He posits a natural law that says that life cannot come from non-life yet in the beginning life did in fact come from non-life says he.

On an evolutionary worldview, we are but an accident with no real purpose for being here. On that worldview, values mean nothing and there is no life after death.

Evolutionists do indeed attempt to inject meaning into our existence. But, they have no justification for doing so on their worldview.

Let me take it a step further. The evolutionist says there is no God.

The question must be put to him, “how do you know there is no God?â€Â

On his worldview, one of observation and data, he does not know. He has not searched every corner of the universe. He has limited knowledge and limited investigative ability.

He posits a statement of absolute fact concerning the existence of God but he is relegated to a position of complete uncertainty on his worldview. He cannot justify his claim...

http://www.crosswalk.com/pastors/11552410/ - 2 more pages there

Ian
 
Evangelical Minds

David Dockery on Christian Higher Ed's Key Challenges

Plus: Fearing secularization and "fundamentalization" and whether "Christian economics" exist.
Hunter Baker


Book Report: David Dockery's Renewing Minds

David Dockery is president of Union University in Jackson, Tennessee. Co-editor of two earlier books on Christian higher education (Shaping a Christian Worldview and The Future of Christian Higher Education), he has now written his own book on the subject. Renewing Minds: Serving Church and Society through Christian Higher Education, will be published by Holman Academic in October.


CT: You've already edited two books on Christian higher education, and have written extensively on the subject. What motivated you to take it up again in a new volume, especially as there have been so many other books on Christian higher education in recent years?

Dockery: The world in which we live is characterized by change. At the heart of these paradigmatic changes we see that truth, morality, and interpretive frameworks are being ignored if not rejected.

The challenges posed for Christian higher education by these cultural shifts are formidable indeed. I believe that those of us who are called to serve in Christian higher education at this time in history must step forward to address these issues.

Renewing Minds is a call to reclaim the best of the Christian intellectual tradition.

In this context we need more than just new and novel ideas and enhanced programs; we need distinctively Christian thinking. It seems to me that the integration of faith and learning involves, as T.S. Eliot said so appropriately, being able to think in Christian categories.

CT: One of the significant divides in terms of conceiving the Christian university is between the "two spheres" model that aims to provide an excellent secular education in a Christian environment and the integrationist model that aims at distinctively Christian education. You endorse the latter. Why?

Dockery: A two-sphere model recognizes the place of chapel, campus ministry, mission trip opportunities, and residence-life Bible studies. This model sees a place for faith on one side of the campus and learning on the other. This model can be achieved with parachurch ministries on secular campuses. I do not believe this model represents the best of Christ-centered higher education nor do I think it represents the best of the Christian intellectual tradition through the years.

The conjunction of faith and learning, the one-sphere or integrationist model, points to the essence of a Christian university. In recent years, among an increasingly large number of intellectuals, there has arisen a deep suspicion of today's thoroughly secularized academy, so that there is indeed a renewed appreciation for and openness to what George Marsden calls "the outrageous idea of Christian scholarship."

As Mark Schwenn of Valparaiso University has suggested, it may be time to acknowledge that the thorough secularization of the academy is, at least, unfruitful. There is even a renewed interest in many places in the relationship of the church to higher education. "Ex cordeecclesiae" is the way our Catholic friends frame this idea, which calls for the church to be at the heart of the university and for the university to be at the heart of the church.

Being faithful will involve much more than mere piety or spirituality, which by itself will not sustain the idea of a Christian university. We need a model of higher education that confesses the sovereignty of the triune God over the whole cosmos, in all spheres and kingdoms, visible and invisible.

CT: Why are Christian faculty sometimes deeply divided over making the integration of faith and learning the touchstone of a Christian university experience? And why does it seem to provoke bigger fights between Baptists than Presbyterians or Catholics?

Dockery: I think one of the key challenges we face in trying to advance the cause of Christian higher education is locating and developing faculty who believe in the importance of the vision I have attempted to articulate in the first three questions. This understanding of faith (the faith that we believe) provides a unifying framework that helps avoid the error of a spiritualized Gnosticism on the one hand or a purely materialistic metaphysic on the other.

It is this confessional starting point that forms the foundation for our affirmation that all truth is God's truth, whether revealed or discovered. Thus, on the one hand we respond with grateful wonder at what has been made known to us, and on the other, with exerted effort to discover what has not been clearly manifested...


http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/200 ... -42.0.html

Ian
 
I have God living inside of me, and he has taught me about false doctrines and false brethren.

And yet you are preaching a new doctrine, one that is manifestly false.

He decides all things for me, and his doctrines are my doctrines. My wishes are that you and others would submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in all that you say and do.

Sorry, my God is truth, not falsehoods.
 
The problem with evolutionists vs. creationists is a question of honesty. I cannot submit the sources as they came from a university student on another form. He had the habit of emailing some of the scientists who were being quoted by evolutionists. The facts are scientists were quoted out of context and their intent was twisted to make it say something else.

Shalom
Ted :D
 
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