God and genocide - where do we go?

[Grazer]

In the old testament God appears to sanction some pretty horrendous atrocities to achieve his ends. This is a massive issue and one that is very difficult to address when atheists (rightly in my view even if they don't fully understand the passage - a point I'll come back to) point them out in questioning the nature of God. One of the most difficult is the destruction of Canaan. God commands for the entire civilisation of Canaan to be destroyed because he does not want the Canannites corrupting the Israelites (Deuteronomy 7:3-5)

Many Christians have taken different approaches. Some have encased it in Gods justice (but that's not what the text says) others have said God can do what he wants (that causes massive issues for the nature of a loving God) others just gloss over it. But Peter Enns (yes I mention this guy a lot but I've been reading a lot of his stuff lately and he's raising interesting questions and points) suggests we need to hit this issue head on.

I guess this is what I would like to do. How do we approach these texts in the Old Testament and the destruction of Canaan in particular? For me there's no getting around it, these are very very difficult passages theologically but they're in there for a reason.

I've put Peter Enn's articles below:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peterenns/2012/07/john-piper-on-why-its-right-for-god-to-slaughter-women-and-children-anytime-he-pleases-and-why-i-have-some-major-problems-with-that/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peterenns/2012/07/more-on-canaanite-genocide-or-taking-a-step-back-because-what-we-have-here-is-a-communication-problem/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peterenns/2012/07/children-and-virgins-as-spoils-of-war-and-the-character-of-god/

 

[felix]

It's God's judgment:

(Gen 15:13-16) Then He said to Abram: "Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land [that is] not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites [is] not yet complete."

 

[Grazer]

It's God's judgment:

(Gen 15:13-16) Then He said to Abram: "Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land [that is] not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites [is] not yet complete."

But that's not what the text in Deuteronomy says as stated in my original post and you have the issue of god sanctioned enforced slavery.

 

[Danus]

Let's try to ref scripture directly when we can.

“When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girga@#$%@#$%@#$%@#$%es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are greater and more numerous than you. When the LORD your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy. You must not intermarry with them. Do not let your daughters and sons marry their sons and daughters, for they will lead your children away from me to worship other gods. Then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and he will quickly destroy you. This is what you must do. You must break down their pagan altars and shatter their sacred pillars. Cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols. For you are a holy people, who belong to the LORD your God. Of all the people on earth, the LORD your God has chosen you to be his own special treasure. (Deuteronomy 7:1-6 NLT)

 

[Danus]

I'm pasting the text from an iPhone so it's looking a bit off, but Grazer, please state your issues directly. What exactly do you want to say about it? Do you feel Gods words here go against his nature?

 

[farouk]

To portray atheists as supposedly occupying a neutral moral ground in order to pass judgment on Holy Scripture, when atheist systems have been responsible for the worst of human genocide (Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. come to mind), would be very unsound.

It's a matter of moral character. One should remember the often horrendous practices of the pagans encircling the land of Israel.

 

[Grazer]

To portray atheists as supposedly occupying a neutral moral ground in order to pass judgment on Holy Scripture, when atheist systems have been responsible for the worst of human genocide (Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. come to mind), would be very unsound.

It's a matter of moral character. One should remember the often horrendous practices of the pagans encircling the land of Israel.

And we can go further and argue on what absolute morality they are standing on to pass judgement on scripture etc etc but that just turns the discussion into a mud slinging match and doesn't address the theology of the passage

 

[Grazer]

I'm pasting the text from an iPhone so it's looking a bit off, but Grazer, please state your issues directly. What exactly do you want to say about it? Do you feel Gods words here go against his nature?

Yes, that's the bulk of my issue among other things.

 

[farouk]

Grazer:

I don't think I completely follow what you are saying, although I don't think Stalin, Pol Pot and the French Revolution's guillotine are completely irrelevant to the record of atheism.

Regarding the passages in the Old Testament, where God wreaks vengeance on his implacable enemies: remember, the line of promise and blessing, which God preserved, came through Israel. And if we are reading our Bible in the right way, we will know and trust that God's foolishness is wiser than our wisdom; His cruelty is kinder than our kindness and so forth.

 

[Grazer]

Grazer:

I don't think I completely follow what you are saying, although I don't think Stalin, Pol Pot and the French Revolution's guillotine are completely irrelevant to the record of atheism.

Regarding the passages in the Old Testament, where God wreaks vengeance on his implacable enemies: remember, the line of promise and blessing, which God preserved, came through Israel. And if we are reading our Bible in the right way, we will know and trust that God's foolishness is wiser than our wisdom; His cruelty is kinder than our kindness and so forth.

They're not irrelevant to the history of atheism certainly but they are irrelevant when looking at this passage and the nature of God.

Reading it in the right way? Not sure what you mean by that. All I know is that when I read these passages it raises some very difficult questions and I'm struggling to make sense of the answers.

I don't buy felix's answer of its Gods judgement for a couple of reasons;

1) God didn't send a plague or strike them down himself, he sent the Israelites specifically to do it with specific commands to "must destroy them totally" (Deut 7:2)
2) In further passages, God allows women and children to be taken (As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies - Deut 20:14) What would you use women and children for?
3) He allows treaties for the outlying cities
4) They weren't the absolute worst around
5) Deut 7:3-4 is very explicit on the reasons why (Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods, and the Lord’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you)

I trust God and I trust there is a reason why these passages exist but I can't simply pretend I don't have questions over these passages and others.

 

[Atothetheist]

To portray atheists as supposedly occupying a neutral moral ground in order to pass judgment on Holy Scripture, when atheist systems have been responsible for the worst of human genocide (Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. come to mind), would be very unsound.

It's a matter of moral character. One should remember the often horrendous practices of the pagans encircling the land of Israel.

First of all, those people you mentioned, didn't kill in the name of atheism, rather in communism.

Stalin didn't kill because he was a nonbeliever, he killed to ensure his system and reign.

Nobody has killed IN THE NAME OF ATHEISM. Communism is not atheism, atheism doesn't have a set of guidlines at all, it is just a stance on a diety.

 

[Danus]

And we can go further and argue on what absolute morality they are standing on to pass judgement on scripture etc etc but that just turns the discussion into a mud slinging match and doesn't address the theology of the passage

Yes, that's the bulk of my issue among other things.

Let's address the theology of this passage.

It sounds like you've already heard it before, but at the point of this account, mankind was already fallen in nature to sin.

God chose to reconcile with mankind through the Jewish people, as his chosen people and he is leading them to the promise land.

Mankind at this point is foul, the people God is having the Jews do away with are in the way of reconciliation.

You are assuming the Hittites, Girgaes, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, are innocent and do not deserve, or require being dealt with in this way, when God clearly says they are corrupt.

God does not kill them.

He directs the Jews to kill them for the reasons I mention above.

The Jews are not much better in nature. they are also sinners and fallen, but God says this of the Jews.

7 The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. 8 But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.

He says this of them in-spite of them.

Of others he says, 10 But,those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction; he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him.

You feel it is morally wrong of God to destroy the useless people to him, those who hurt others and who do not love Him. They should live you think., and you don't like the idea that God wipes out the Hittites, Girgaes, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites....because you know they where really good people? God says they where not.

So tell me, If it is wrong to kill, and wrong of God to have these people destroyed, even though he says it was necessary and they deserve it; I have to assume you value life? Is that correct? It's wrong to kill anyone because everyone deserve a chance in this life and God is wrong for this! Correct?

 

[felix]

I don't buy felix's answer of its Gods judgement for a couple of reasons;

1) God didn't send a plague or strike them down himself, he sent the Israelites specifically to do it with specific commands to "must destroy them totally" (Deut 7:2)
2) In further passages, God allows women and children to be taken (As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies - Deut 20:14) What would you use women and children for?
3) He allows treaties for the outlying cities
4) They weren't the absolute worst around
5) Deut 7:3-4 is very explicit on the reasons why (Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods, and the Lord’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you)

I trust God and I trust there is a reason why these passages exist but I can't simply pretend I don't have questions over these passages and others.

God judges a nation based on the sin and abominations they do. He doesn't plague or strike down Himself because the sin they do is far greater than just sending a plague. The judgement for the abominations that these people did was the land to vomit them out. This is the same warning God gave to Israel.

(Lev 18:24-28) ' Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit [any] of these abominations, [either] any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who [were] before you, and thus the land is defiled), lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that [were] before you.

 

[Titusdrake]

God is love
Love is sacrifice


God chose to kill say 1000 people so that his 10000 people werent corrupted for generations to come it seems like a worthy sacrifice to me. (numbers are obviously not specific)

And ultimately, God is God. He can do whatever he wants. Hence the term "Fear God and shun evil" God IS good. He has never sinned or made a wrong choice. Wether it makes sense to me or not i trust that God did right. Even if it means he struck many people down. I trust and obey, its not my place to question Gods reasoning. Though thats not easy for a non believer to understand unfortunately

Sent from my DROID RAZR

 

[Grazer]

God judges a nation based on the sin and abominations they do. He doesn't plague or strike down Himself because the sin they do is far greater than just sending a plague. The judgement for the abominations that these people did was the land to vomit them out. This is the same warning God gave to Israel.

(Lev 18:24-28) ' Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit [any] of these abominations, [either] any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who [were] before you, and thus the land is defiled), lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that [were] before you.

Really not sure if that makes things better or worse given that it went on to become part of the law

 

[Grazer]

First of all, those people you mentioned, didn't kill in the name of atheism, rather in communism.

Stalin didn't kill because he was a nonbeliever, he killed to ensure his system and reign.

Nobody has killed IN THE NAME OF ATHEISM. Communism is not atheism, atheism doesn't have a set of guidlines at all, it is just a stance on a diety.

He killed tens of thousands of religious leaders and destroyed hundreds of churches to establish atheism as the "religion" of the soviet state. He didn't kill simply because he was a non-believer but his stance on the deity led to him targeting the religious community. He didn't just target the religious but you can't completely exonerate atheism from what happened.

 

[Atothetheist]

He killed tens of thousands of religious leaders and destroyed hundreds of churches to establish atheism as the "religion" of the soviet state. He didn't kill simply because he was a non-believer but his stance on the deity led to him targeting the religious community. He didn't just target the religious but you can't completely exonerate atheism from what happened.

Ya you can, he formed a POSITIVE relationship with the Russian Orthodox, and used it as his own puppet religion.

He burned and killed believers, not because he was an atheist, but because religion was a threat to his government.

Atheism isn't a (EDITED FOR LANGUAGE) religion, get it through your head.

Atheism has absolutely no resoponsibility because it isn't something you can easily establish.

Just because he was an atheist, and killed religious people, doesn't mean atheism is at fault.
Atheism is a stance on a deity, it doesn't moderate any behavior because it doesn't claim that right. An atheist can be a killer, and an atheist can be a good person, atheism doesn't claim to be good, and moral, because it doesn't have laws which people of the same view all follow.

Did atheism tell him to kill the religious and burn the buildings? Nope
Does atheism have any moral codes at all? Nope.

Whatever an atheist does, is whatever the person does.

Is it religions fault that a belief in God caused a woman to cut off her babys arms? Nope, it was her beliefs, not an official doctrine of the religion.

Atheism bears no blame simply because he had other reasons to do it, and those were the reasons he did do it.



He was a communist leader, and superstition had no place in communism, and had no place in the government he wanted.

 

[Grazer]

Atheism isn't a (EDITED FOR LANGUAGE)religion, get it through your head.

I know, you will note that the word religion was in quotes for this very reason.

Does atheism have any moral codes at all? Nope

Interesting statement in light of the morality discussion earlier

Atheism bears no blame simply because he had other reasons to do it, and those were the reasons he did do it.

That's not exactly an argument is it? Just because he had other reasons doesn't mean atheism didn't play a part.

 

[Danus]

Let's watch the language used please. if any one needs to brush up on the ToS you can read up here. http://www.christianforums.net/announcement.php?f=64&a=6..........2.3: No foul language

This is a first, and general warning.

 

[Atothetheist]

Atheism isn't a (EDITED FOR LANGUAGE)religion, get it through your head.

I know, you will note that the word religion was in quotes for this very reason.

Does atheism have any moral codes at all? Nope

Interesting statement in light of the morality discussion earlier

Atheism bears no blame simply because he had other reasons to do it, and those were the reasons he did do it.

That's not exactly an argument is it? Just because he had other reasons doesn't mean atheism didn't play a part.

Good to know that you didn't respond the to the rest of the post.