God became Man under the name Jesus Christ.

[Free]

God is able to DO what God 'chooses' to DO. He is NOT confined to 'our understanding'. If He chooses to place divinity 'into' another that IS His Choice. And an offering of divinity, (holiness), is NOT confined by 'OUR' limitations.

Which makes you a polytheist and that disagrees with the entirety of Scripture.

As for indication of a 'time before' Christ: only begotten, firstborn, etc..........These are the indications to which I refer. And there are many others.

But you continue to ignore two key passages: John 1:1, 14 and Col. 1:16-17. These clearly state that Christ has always been.

 

[Imagican]

God is able to DO what God 'chooses' to DO. He is NOT confined to 'our understanding'. If He chooses to place divinity 'into' another that IS His Choice. And an offering of divinity, (holiness), is NOT confined by 'OUR' limitations.

Which makes you a polytheist and that disagrees with the entirety of Scripture.

As for indication of a 'time before' Christ: only begotten, firstborn, etc..........These are the indications to which I refer. And there are many others.

But you continue to ignore two key passages: John 1:1, 14 and Col. 1:16-17. These clearly state that Christ has always been.

No Free, FAR from it. There is ONLY ONE God. And there is ONLY One "Begotten" Son of God; Jesus Christ.

And NO, again. What these scripture offer is 'in the beginning' or 'Alpha and Omega', 'beginning and end'. But what you and MOST others seems to unable to 'grasp' is that 'in the beginning' can ONLY be concerning a 'text' written by and TO 'mankind', this reference is most definitely pertaining to 'in the beginning of THAT which pertains to US, (mankind). For we have little information availible concerning a 'time BEFORE' US. Yet we KNOW that there WAS this 'time' for we DO have a 'little' information concerning a 'battle in heaven' and such.

While I WILL not state that Christ HAS NOT always 'been', I will certainly state that we have NOT been given 'clear enough' information to discern the truth of this one way or the other. But MOST scripture indicates that GOD was FIRST and THEN there was Christ. How this 'works' EXACTLY is NOT something that we have been offered in its entirety.

Only in the 'minds' of men are these answers able to be offered in 'belief'. For there is NOTHING contained within The Word that offers an EXACT statement that Christ has ALWAYS 'been'. Only that He existed 'in the beginning'.

And I know that the average person has NO perception of time eternal, or an 'infinite number' and such. But to those that ARE able to comprehend such concepts, there is MUCH more to 'things' than often 'meets the eye'.

MEC

 

[Free]

There is ONLY ONE God. And there is ONLY One "Begotten" Son of God; Jesus Christ.

Those two statements are completely in line with the doctrine of the Trinity.

But what you and MOST others seems to unable to 'grasp' is that 'in the beginning' can ONLY be concerning a 'text' written by and TO 'mankind', this reference is most definitely pertaining to 'in the beginning of THAT which pertains to US, (mankind). For we have little information availible concerning a 'time BEFORE' US. Yet we KNOW that there WAS this 'time' for we DO have a 'little' information concerning a 'battle in heaven' and such.

This is not quite correct.

Look at Gen. 1:1 - "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth". This is the point at which all of Creation came into being, only God existed prior to "the beginning".

Please, please follow closely and take your time going through the rest of this post.

While I WILL not state that Christ HAS NOT always 'been', I will certainly state that we have NOT been given 'clear enough' information to discern the truth of this one way or the other. But MOST scripture indicates that GOD was FIRST and THEN there was Christ. How this 'works' EXACTLY is NOT something that we have been offered in its entirety.

Only in the 'minds' of men are these answers able to be offered in 'belief'. For there is NOTHING contained within The Word that offers an EXACT statement that Christ has ALWAYS 'been'. Only that He existed 'in the beginning'.

But we have been given very clear information, and more than once.

Now compare Gen. 1:1 with John 1:1-2 "1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God." John is echoing the words of Moses--at that point which was the beginning, the beginning of Creation, the Word was already in existence.

The Greek makes it crystal clear what John is saying. The tense used in verses 1 and 2 is the imperfect; this is extremely important. This means that John 1:1-2 actually read: "In the beginning already was the Word, and the Word already was with God, and the Word already was God. He already was in the beginning with God". The point is that of a continuous action in the past, that is, eternity past: the Word was in existence prior to all of Creation.

This is further supported by verse 3: "All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made". Not only does the English make this clear, as the underlined portions show, but the Greek tense used in this verse is aorist. What that means is that verse 2 actually reads: "All things came into being through him...". This is used in verse 14 as well: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...". What the aorist tense introduces is a point in time--a point in time when everything that was created was created, and a point in time when the Word became flesh.

So your only way around verse 3 is to say that "all things" doesn't really mean "all things", and that "without him was not any thing made that was made" doesn't really mean what it states either. The only logical conclusion from verse 3 is that Jesus was not made. The English translation of verse 3 does you in without even having to go into the Greek of verse 1.

John is contrasting the eternalness of Christ and his role in Creation with the point in which everything came into existence in time and when the Word became flesh, entering into time. And this is in the prologue of John, this sets up the rest of the book and much meaning hinges on the points he is making.

This is further supported by Col. 1:16-17:

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

This is perfectly in agreement with John 1:1-3 as stated above. Everything was created through Jesus and he is before everything. Unless Scripture doesn't actually mean "everything" when it says "everything" or "all things" when it says "all things", then this passage too clearly states that Jesus existed prior to anything that has been created. Again, the only logical conclusion is that he is not created.

As you can see, to say that Jesus has not existed for eternity, to say that he is a created being, one has to completely change the grammar of both Greek and English. This is not some man-made doctrine, this is precisely what the Bible is saying. A bit of the depth is lost in the translation from Greek to English but the English is still clear enough.

 

[Imagican]

Free,

You are correct in assuming that I believe 'all things' does NOT need mean ALL THINGS. As I have tried to illiterate: All things I 'beileve' indicates more so those things that pertain to mankind than simply ALL ThINGS. Let me offer WHY the words don't necessarily mean this in a LITERAL sense.

When the plagues were wrought upon Egypt, we read in the descriptions on numerous occasion, that the plagues mentioned and discribed, (such as the locusts). that they covered the FACE of the EARTH. An 'indication' that the locusts were over the entire planet. Yet we KNOW that this was NOT so. The witness witnessed the locusts coverning the land which they could SEE. And not being able to see beyond a 'certain point', there was an 'assumption' that they must cover ALL the land since ALL the land that they could SEE was covered by locusts.

In a similar fashion, there is NO reason for us to believe that 'all things' literally means ALL THINGS, but simply those which pertain to US, (mankind), since the words offered were offered to 'mankind'.

To further illustrate; the heavens that God created. There are obviously more than ONE heaven. And the heavens that God created in Genesis are OBVIOUSLY NOT the heaven in which He exists. The 'heavens' refered to are is what WE are aware of. The PHYSICAL that we are able to 'observe'.

Which existed FIRST, God or the universe? Since God 'created' the universe tha answer is obvious, true? Now, in what 'realm' did God exist prior to the creation of the universe? Are you beginning to 'see' what I'm talking about? And, even if God created THAT realm, it was prior to ANYTHING we have been offered through The Word.

I am curious. From a 'trinitarian' perspective, WHY did God choose to call Christ HIS SON? Why did He not simply convey to us that Jesus Christ, in the flesh, was actually HIMSELF? If Christ WERE God Himself, it would have been EASY enough to PROVE this to those that witnessed His presence. Why would God attempt to be 'so mystical' that He didn't even reveal 'who' He IS until hundreds of years after the death of Christ?

I believe that it is obvious that Christ existed previous to the creation of man. And that Christ was instrumental in said 'creation'. But I also believe that there is GREAT likelyhood that God existed BEFORE Christ. And this would mean that Christ was created 'somehow'. For there is indication that man WAS created FOR Christ, and that Christ was 'created' FOR God. Just as 'woman' was 'created' FOR man.

These are not mere 'speculation', for I have come to NONE of these conclusions 'on my own'. The Word points to these conclusions.

And then when we consider that Christ Himself stated that the Father is 'GREATER', that they words that He offered were NOT HIS OWN, etc........... We then begin to understand the MEANING of Father.

MEC

 

[Free]

You are correct in assuming that I believe 'all things' does NOT need mean ALL THINGS. As I have tried to illiterate: All things I 'beileve' indicates more so those things that pertain to mankind than simply ALL ThINGS. Let me offer WHY the words don't necessarily mean this in a LITERAL sense.

Then our conversation is over. If we cannot take literally what Scripture clearly states on these matters then all discussion becomes meaningless since the words can mean whatever they want except what they are supposed to mean. This means that our whole conversation up to this point is meaningless as well as any conversation that would come after.

This is a huge error on your part. This is why your doctrine is so faulty--you have to change the meaning of words to make your doctrine work.

 

[Imagican]

Free,

I ask this:

Did God create Satan? The other angels? WHEN? Did God 'create' HIMSELF?

If you understand these questions, then you can surely 'see' to what I have refered to so far as 'all things'. If you state that God did NOT create Himself, then you must OPENLY admit that He did NOT create ALL THINGS. Therefore it is YOUR doctrine that is 'misunderstood' for the sake of 'words' that YOU would have mean what YOU choose for them to mean.

I have simply offered that what is written in The Word is that which pertains to 'mankind'. We know NOT what existed PREVIOUS to our creation. What little that has been offered is SURELY not ALL that there is to it. We have a difficult enough time trying to discern the meaning of LOVE, how much more difficult would it be for us to understand the REALITY of God and ALL that pertains to HIM. We're obviously not 'ready' for that YET.

I believe that EVERYONE realizes that EVERYTHING is NOT given us in scripture. There are NO details of the 'battle in heaven'. Nor is there given the 'time' that it took place. We ONLY know that it was BEFORE 'us'. We have NO IDEA when Christ 'became' the ONLY begotten. Or when it was decided that man would be created.

We have what we have and that is enough for us to KNOW God. And to KNOW God IS enough. For that is exactly why Christ was sent; so that ALL might KNOW God through His Son. The history of heaven is of little import compared to the simple knowledge of God and His Son.

But, if we attept to contain God or His Son within a 'box' of our OWN 'creation' then we do NOTHING other than 'create' our OWN God. One by OUR design rather than simple acceptance of the TRUE God as offered by Himself through His Son.

Free, there have been gods MANY throughout history. And each of these, (with no doubt influence offered by Satan), was a 'man-made' god other than the ONE True God. And there is absolutely NOTHING to stop mankind from creating their 'own' God FROM the One True God. All it takes is to alter what we have been taught into something else.

MEC

 

[mutzrein]

We have what we have and that is enough for us to KNOW God. And to KNOW God IS enough. For that is exactly why Christ was sent; so that ALL might KNOW God through His Son. The history of heaven is of little import compared to the simple knowledge of God and His Son.
MEC

Hi MEC - been following some of your posts and have enjoyed them. In the main, I agree with you. What do you see as the meaning of ALL as highlighted above?

 

[Free]

Did God create Satan? The other angels? WHEN? Did God 'create' HIMSELF?

Yes. Yes. Sometime "in the beginning" but not before. God isn't created.

If you state that God did NOT create Himself, then you must OPENLY admit that He did NOT create ALL THINGS. Therefore it is YOUR doctrine that is 'misunderstood' for the sake of 'words' that YOU would have mean what YOU choose for them to mean.

Of course God didn't create himself but that in no way means that he did not create all things. This is a fallacious argument.

But here you dig yourself into a hole without realizing it. You are attempting to use an argument against me which Scripture already makes regarding things created yet you ignore the one in Scripture. But you must ignore it otherwise it does your position in.

Here it is, again:

John 1:3: "All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made".

The clear and only logical conclusion is that Christ was not made. If Christ was created at any point in time, even prior to Creation, John's statement would be false.

"All things" means "all things", everything that has ever been created, and there is not one single reason in the entirety of Holy Scripture to believe it only is in reference to all the things pertaining only to man. Not one.

Not only that, you have completely ignored the Greek and what it is clearly saying.

 

[Imagican]

We have what we have and that is enough for us to KNOW God. And to KNOW God IS enough. For that is exactly why Christ was sent; so that ALL might KNOW God through His Son. The history of heaven is of little import compared to the simple knowledge of God and His Son.
MEC

Hi MEC - been following some of your posts and have enjoyed them. In the main, I agree with you. What do you see as the meaning of ALL as highlighted above?

It's really simple. Please don't confuse this offering as ALL men WILL know God through His Son, right NOW. But that ALL have been given the 'oportunity' to KNOW God through His Son, and one day ALL men WILL know God through His Son. That day is not yet though.

What many 'churches' would teach is that the ONLY way one can know of God is through ministry. 'Someone' MUST tell them about Christ. Couldn't be further from the TRUTH. For there are a number of examples throughout the history of mankind where there were those that God touched, or simply found Him through an understanding of that which is RIGHT, (true love).

Paul is another PERFECT example of one not NEEDing others to TELL Him about Christ to discover God's Son.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Ahhhhhhhhh, I DO see now. Free, you have forgotten that I do not believe that the 'general' interpretation of John 1: is correct. I have found that if one accept it AS the 'chruches teach', (as the CC first determined it's meaning), that what you and they offer has at least a 'bit' of validity. But when one begins to understand that the Word was capitalized to 'indicate' exactly what it was that the CC interpreted 'into' the writting of John.

Look, to start with, John, like all the other Gospel writters 'started' his gospel MUCH like all the rest. But instead of intimate details of Christ's birth, he started with God's FIRST relationship with mankind, (creation). Most have simply denied this for the sake of 'what they have been TAUGHT' by the churches.

Read it, Free, without the capital W. Read it as IT IS WRITTEN. Not by what you have been LED to beieve in order to PROVE a 'certain point'. But read it for WHAT IS WRITTEN in the first chapter of John.

He is simply offering a condensed history of the 'relationship' between God and man. To deny this is to miss the opening statement and it's intended purpose to START with. John DID NOT offer this writting to 'create' a 'trinity'. John didn't even KNOW of a 'trinity' when he wrote it. He was offering a testimony. Starting with what he KNEW of God and mans relationship down through history. Right up to His Son, Jesus Christ.

What a 'strange' gospel indeed that would veer COMPLETELY in a 'different' direction than ALL THE OTHERS. It doesn't. John simply did NOT spend the time on ONLY the ministry of Christ, but offers a concise and compact history of 'the relationship'. Also understand that the gospels were MOST likely written to JEWS, not Gentiles. So to separate this understanding into something else is to LOOSE the meaning of it to begin with. The Jews of the time would have understood what John was offering even if they didn't agree with it.

What the CC did was create something that they Jews STILL can't understand. Not only the Jews, but MANY Christians as well.

Thus, 'in the beginning WAS The Word'. Free we KNOW from the Bible that God SPOKE existence into BEING. For God said, "Let there be LIGHT". Thus, in the beginning WAS The Word of God.
And this word WAS indeed With GOD. For there is NO truth other than that offered BY God. And HOW, Free, is that Truth offered? And WHERE does that truth abide? The TRUTH, (word), is WITH God. And the word, TRUTH, IS God.

Then God tried his darnedest to offer this word through his propets. OVER AND OVER again, but it seemed that ONLY the propthets would accept it or understand it. He was rejected OVER AND OVER. Then God decided it was TIME to make the WORD manifest. So God sent His Son to BRING this word DIRECTLY from Him to the WORLD. The Word BECAME flesh.

We have the offering of Christ Himself that the words that He offered WERE NOT HIS OWN. Now, if Christ WERE God, then this would NOT, COULD NOT, be true. For The Word IS GOD. Yet Christ plainly offers that the WORDS were NOT HIS OWN but GIVEN Him by THE FATHER, that we KNOW IS GOD.

Never forget the simplicity that IS Christ Jesus. For to 'create' a Christ of intellectual design is to create that which contradicts that which we have been offered. Christ loved US exactly as the Father loves Him. That IS what Christ came to offer. An EXAMPLE of the LOVE that God has for us. Christ LOVED God exactly as God WISHES for US to love Him. "This is my BELOVED Son, in whom I am WELL PLEASED". What do you reacon it was that PLEASED God about His Son?

MEC

 

[mutzrein]

We have what we have and that is enough for us to KNOW God. And to KNOW God IS enough. For that is exactly why Christ was sent; so that ALL might KNOW God through His Son. The history of heaven is of little import compared to the simple knowledge of God and His Son.
MEC

Hi MEC - been following some of your posts and have enjoyed them. In the main, I agree with you. What do you see as the meaning of ALL as highlighted above?

It's really simple. Please don't confuse this offering as ALL men WILL know God through His Son, right NOW. But that ALL have been given the 'oportunity' to KNOW God through His Son, and one day ALL men WILL know God through His Son. That day is not yet though.

What many 'churches' would teach is that the ONLY way one can know of God is through ministry. 'Someone' MUST tell them about Christ. Couldn't be further from the TRUTH. For there are a number of examples throughout the history of mankind where there were those that God touched, or simply found Him through an understanding of that which is RIGHT, (true love).

Paul is another PERFECT example of one not NEEDing others to TELL Him about Christ to discover God's Son.

MEC

Mmmm - yes I do agree that the 'ministry' of the church is not necessary for salvation but are you suggesting that there is another way of knowing God apart from (knowing about) Christ? If you do, I wouldn't particularly say that Paul is a 'perfect' example. He certainly knew about Christ because it was Jesus whom he was persecuting and he certainly knew who others (Stephen for example) claimed him to be - the Righteous One of God.

Another thread to discuss if you wish

 

[Free]

Ahhhhhhhhh, I DO see now. Free, you have forgotten that I do not believe that the 'general' interpretation of John 1: is correct. I have found that if one accept it AS the 'chruches teach', (as the CC first determined it's meaning), that what you and they offer has at least a 'bit' of validity. But when one begins to understand that the Word was capitalized to 'indicate' exactly what it was that the CC interpreted 'into' the writting of John.

Look, to start with, John, like all the other Gospel writters 'started' his gospel MUCH like all the rest. But instead of intimate details of Christ's birth, he started with God's FIRST relationship with mankind, (creation). Most have simply denied this for the sake of 'what they have been TAUGHT' by the churches.

Read it, Free, without the capital W. Read it as IT IS WRITTEN. Not by what you have been LED to beieve in order to PROVE a 'certain point'. But read it for WHAT IS WRITTEN in the first chapter of John.

This really says it all, doesn't it? You reject what the Greek actually states in favour of your own, personal interpretation.

There is nothing more I can say. I don't know why I get into these discussions with you. I suppose it's because I think that maybe you have learned to think critically and rationally, but each time it it's clear that you have not. You prefer personal interpretation, and a poor one at that, over what the Bible actually says. I guess you have that right, as wrong as you are.

You are wrong. Period.

I'm done here.

 

[handy]

:-? I'm probably going to kick myself for even jumping in here, or at least kick a dead horse but here goes:

MEC, can you please reconcile what you just posted regarding the Word/word in John 1 with what John specifically wrote in John 1:14.

 

[Devekut]

Imagican,

Who, theologically, do you believe Christ to be? Is He God? And if so, in what sense?

 

[Imagican]

Imagican,

Who, theologically, do you believe Christ to be? Is He God? And if so, in what sense?

Dave,

EXACTLY 'who' Christ STATED that He IS; the Son of God. He is CERTAINLY a 'part' of the Godhead. But that is STILL a mystery to us so far as the EXACT relationship of Christ to God other than that HE IS The Son of God.

And this 'idea' of God the Son has NEVER been offered through scripture.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

:-? I'm probably going to kick myself for even jumping in here, or at least kick a dead horse but here goes:

MEC, can you please reconcile what you just posted regarding the Word/word in John 1 with what John specifically wrote in John 1:14.

handy,

No need to 'kick yourself'.

Is this the scriputure to which you refer?

[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Then God tried his darnedest to offer this word through his propets. OVER AND OVER again, but it seemed that ONLY the propthets would accept it or understand it. He was rejected OVER AND OVER. Then God decided it was TIME to make the WORD manifest. So God sent His Son to BRING this word DIRECTLY from Him to the WORLD. The Word BECAME flesh.

This is the paragraph from that offered above. I think that it is pretty simply put. But let me add, "and dwelt among us"?

Now, I ask YOU: what does this mean? "And we beheld his glory, the glory as of the ONLY Begotten of the Father". Who's glory? Who IS The Father? And HOW was the Word MADE flesh?

MEC

 

[Devekut]

He IS; the Son of God. He is CERTAINLY a 'part' of the Godhead. But that is STILL a mystery to us so

What does it mean to be "part of the Godhead"? Isn't "Godhead" a non-biblical word? I dont know what you mean....

 

[SpiritualSon]

The Son of the God" means Jehovah the Father in His Divine Humanity; "the Son of Man" means Jehovah the Father as the Word under the name Jesus Christ ; and "the Son of Mary" means the actual human nature that Jehovah the Father took upon himself.

Harry :fadein:

 

[MarkT]

As to all things, we should say, all things became visible in the light. Not only visible but with form because the light gave it its form.

You could say, 'all things' are 'all things seen', as a thing isn't a thing until it has a form. Before there was light there was no form, therefore no thing; only darkness. The one who formed the things was the light; the master workman - Proverbs 8:22. But the light was with God and it was God. This suggests that the light was a part of God in that it came from him. If 'I AM WHO I AM' is a true representation of God, then God has four extremities; 2 'I's and 2 'AM's. We have four extremities; 2 hands and 2 feet. Our extremities do work, so we can say that the first 'I' and the last 'AM' did the work. He was the master workman; the hand of God so to speak.

Not a thing but a Word: 'Let there be light.' That's not to say four words - though again we see the four extremities - but One Word for the Word can take any form - and everything was made through him and by him. WHO is the CREATOR, God Almighty.

 

[mutzrein]

He IS; the Son of God. He is CERTAINLY a 'part' of the Godhead. But that is STILL a mystery to us so

What does it mean to be "part of the Godhead"? Isn't "Godhead" a non-biblical word? I dont know what you mean....

Colossians 2:8-10 (KJV)
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: