God calls you to be an overcomer by living a holy life!

[Deborah13]

Yes, this most certainly is the last portion, i.e. the end game, of GOD's PLAN OF SALVATION.
However, BAC Jerry continues to have free will, and it is up to Jerry to choose
how much he will co-operate with the Holy Spirit in His efforts to sanctify him.
Jerry can even choose to walk, or run even, from the faith ... and end up rejecting salvation.

But John, I am confused. If Jerry has been chosen and predestined by God, in the way that you described and as Calvin's TULIP describes, Jerry does not have a choice. He was randomly chosen, not because he came to faith by hearing the word, so therefore he can't not change his nature to comform to God's nature.
God is the one who changes him. That is the very essence of chosen and predestination. If you are one of the chosen, you will persevere because God preordained it. Not because in His foreknowledge He knew Jerry would come to faith, but because He made Jerry come. No free will. No free will to choose anything.

 

[Deborah13]

Jerry can even choose to walk, or run even, from the faith ... and end up rejecting salvation.

Under Calvinism, if you do not conform, you were not chosen/predestined, Never saved to begin with. If you were, you WILL conform. OSAS

 

[Deborah13]

So can one loose their salvation if they are a Chosen one, predestined and preordained, No.

The point being, if you believe in predestination--a predetermined outcome based entirely on the sovereignty of God with no influence from man--then you have to be OSAS. You can't be one and not the other.

I sincerely hope this life has not been some kind of cruel cosmic game that's just going to end the way God wants it to in spite of the sufferings and striving of men who think they have a responsibility to play a part in the outcome.

Cruel, cruel, cruel.

I don't think we need to worry about that. We have a loving God. Jesus said, "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father". Only the most loving God would do what He has done for us. Reconciling Himself to the world, through Jesus. He says, be reconciled to God. That's a choice.

When I was trying to figure out, this whole free will thing. I ended up in the OT. In the Garden, God place two trees. He immediately presented Adam with a choice. If man cannot choose what would be the point in that. Then I see Abraham and Isaac. And again I see God asking Abraham to make a choice, to believe and trust God or not. Abraham was found righteous by faith when he left his home and then again when he obeyed God by faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So can one loose their salvation if they are a Chosen one, predestined and preordained, No.

The point being, if you believe in predestination--a predetermined outcome based entirely on the sovereignty of God with no influence from man--then you have to be OSAS. You can't be one and not the other.

I sincerely hope this life has not been some kind of cruel cosmic game that's just going to end the way God wants it to in spite of the sufferings and striving of men who think they have a responsibility to play a part in the outcome.

Cruel, cruel, cruel.

I don't think we need to worry about that. We have a loving God. Jesus said, "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father". Only the most loving God would do what He has done for us. Reconciling Himself to the world, through Jesus. He says, be reconciled to God. That's a choice.

When I was trying to figure out, this whole free will thing. I ended up in the OT. In the Garden, God place two trees. He immediately presented Adam with a choice. If man cannot choose what would be the point in that. Then I see Abraham and Isaac. And again I see God asking Abraham to make a choice, to believe and trust God or not. Abraham was found righteous by faith when he left his home and then again when he obeyed God by faith.

I agree.

Do you believe that we lose our free choice when we come to Christ, just as Adam did when he sinned and was turned over to that which he chose?

 

[Deborah13]

So can one loose their salvation if they are a Chosen one, predestined and preordained, No.

The point being, if you believe in predestination--a predetermined outcome based entirely on the sovereignty of God with no influence from man--then you have to be OSAS. You can't be one and not the other.

I sincerely hope this life has not been some kind of cruel cosmic game that's just going to end the way God wants it to in spite of the sufferings and striving of men who think they have a responsibility to play a part in the outcome.

Cruel, cruel, cruel.

I don't think we need to worry about that. We have a loving God. Jesus said, "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father". Only the most loving God would do what He has done for us. Reconciling Himself to the world, through Jesus. He says, be reconciled to God. That's a choice.

When I was trying to figure out, this whole free will thing. I ended up in the OT. In the Garden, God place two trees. He immediately presented Adam with a choice. If man cannot choose what would be the point in that. Then I see Abraham and Isaac. And again I see God asking Abraham to make a choice, to believe and trust God or not. Abraham was found righteous by faith when he left his home and then again when he obeyed God by faith.

I agree.

Do you believe that we lose our free choice when we come to Christ, just as Adam did when he sinned and was turned over to that which he chose?

First pertaining to Adam, I don't believe that he lost the ability to choose. In fact, I think either he, Eve, or both must have repented because we see Abel giving sacrifices to God of his firstfruit. Then we hear Eve praising God for Seth. But because they had sinned they could not be returned to that perfect position they were in previously. They had to go through physical death and wait for the Cross.

I don't believe we lose the ability to choose. But what the choice is now is not, to sin/or not to sin. The choice is to walk in faith in Jesus and His works, not our own. I personally have to do that, by keep my eyes and ears on Him. If and when I sin, I need to 1. change my mind, conformed/renewed to the Word of God.
2. confess to God, I'm an idiot basically and thick skulled. If I don't things happen, I slip away, just even a little is dangerous, it gives a foothold to the devil to condemn me and encourage rebellion. And believe it not, he uses the Law against me. Without the Law he has nothing to bring against me.

So I keep my conscious clear. There was a time when I learned something about repentance. I have never intentionally lied to God, I don't think I ever have. What I mean by that is trying to slip through an "I'm sorry God" when I really didn't mean. God sees our heart, can't fool Him. This is one of the areas that I see as being very important as to an understanding of grace. If I were to do something I'm not really sorry for, I need to pray and ask God to soften my rebellious heart. If I am sincere, I can know He will do that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't think we need to worry about that. We have a loving God. Jesus said, "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father". Only the most loving God would do what He has done for us. Reconciling Himself to the world, through Jesus. He says, be reconciled to God. That's a choice.

When I was trying to figure out, this whole free will thing. I ended up in the OT. In the Garden, God place two trees. He immediately presented Adam with a choice. If man cannot choose what would be the point in that. Then I see Abraham and Isaac. And again I see God asking Abraham to make a choice, to believe and trust God or not. Abraham was found righteous by faith when he left his home and then again when he obeyed God by faith.

I agree.

Do you believe that we lose our free choice when we come to Christ, just as Adam did when he sinned and was turned over to that which he chose?

First pertaining to Adam, I don't believe that he lost the ability to choose. In fact, I think either he, Eve, or both must have repented because we see Abel giving sacrifices to God of his firstfruit. Then we hear Eve praising God for Seth. But because they had sinned they could not be returned to that perfect position they were in previously. They had to go through physical death and wait for the Cross.

I meant them losing their choice apart from the grace of God, in and of themselves.

I think it's clear God brought them to repentance almost immediately. I believe without God's loving intervention they had no choice but to remain in death. I'm confident you agree. Is it true that Christians, because of God's grace, have no choice but to remain in life?

I don't believe we lose the ability to choose. But what the choice is now is not, to sin/or not to sin. The choice is to walk in faith in Jesus and His works, not our own. I personally have to do that, by keep my eyes and ears on Him. If and when I sin, I need to 1. change my mind, conformed/renewed to the Word of God.
2. confess to God, I'm an idiot basically and thick skulled. If I don't things happen, I slip away, just even a little is dangerous, it gives a foothold to the devil to condemn me and encourage rebellion. And believe it not, he uses the Law against me. Without the Law he has nothing to bring against me.

Okay, I can understand about the choice to sin or not. But do believers lose their capacity to choose to trust God for salvation once they do that? Are we now forever unable to not choose to depend on Christ for the forgiveness of sins? This is fundamental to the OSAS argument.

 

[Deborah13]

Are we now forever unable to not choose to depend on Christ for the forgiveness of sins?

I'm not sure I understand your question but I'll give it a shot. Well, no I won't because of the scripture in Hebrews where those that were very mature in all the workings of the Holy Spirit, were maybe turning back to the temple and the Law. Now if any of them did or not, still the warning was there against it.

Would that not be rejecting Christ. To either no longer believe that He is the only way to receive forgiveness of sin, or that He does not forgive repented sin, or turning to some other means of salvation, which that would be idolatry?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are we now forever unable to not choose to depend on Christ for the forgiveness of sins?

I'm not sure I understand your question but I'll give it a shot. Well, no I won't because of the scripture in Hebrews where those that were very mature in all the workings of the Holy Spirit, were maybe turning back to the temple and the Law. Now if any of them did or not, still the warning was there against it.

Would that not be rejecting Christ. To either no longer believe that He is the only way to receive forgiveness of sin, or that He does not forgive repented sin, or turning to some other means of salvation, which that would be idolatry?

Bingo! ;)


The argument goes that all men once they die lose their choice to do right and are bound over to unrighteousness. Very true. Except for the grace of God we remain in the bondage of that unrighteousness until Christ sets us free.

But Paul also talks about the 'bondage' of righteousness after we are put into Christ. The argument being that proves OSAS...we can't make a decision to turn back to a rejection of Christ and unrighteousness once we are saved, just as we can't make a decision to go back to blameless righteousness once we die after we become accountable for our sins (except that the grace of God give us back that choice). I don't think the scriptures bear that out. Do you?

 

[Deborah13]

The argument goes that all men once they die lose their choice to do right and are bound over to unrighteousness. Very true. Except for the grace of God we remain in the bondage of that unrighteousness until Christ sets us free.

Absolutely.

But Paul also talks about the 'bondage' of righteousness after we are put into Christ. The argument being that proves OSAS...we can't make a decision to turn back to a rejection of Christ and unrighteousness once we are saved, just as we can't make a decision to go back to blameless righteousness once we die after we become accountable for our sins (except that the grace of God give us back that choice). I don't think the scriptures bear that out. Do you?

I just can't, with all honesty say for sure either way. There are so many scriptures that support one never losing their salvation. And I know the power of God in my own life.
But there are a few that appear to say one could actually do this.
I haven't gotten any new thoughts about it.

 

[Elijah674]

It is free will to be IN Christ Rom. 8:1 and follow on or not to, Rom. 8:14. Once in Christ which is only the required [start] we then are perfect at that point.

Now being LED of the Holy Spirit is required! This is the Required New Birth.

Then what follows is the growing up or down. Eccl. 12:13-14
Heb. 11:1-2 are saved by the life that [THEY LIVED]. Heb. 11:13, & were judged by the Eccl. verses.

--Elijah

 

[John Zain]

Yes, this most certainly is the last portion, i.e. the end game, of GOD's PLAN OF SALVATION.
However, BAC Jerry continues to have free will, and it is up to Jerry to choose
how much he will co-operate with the Holy Spirit in His efforts to sanctify him.
Jerry can even choose to walk, or run even, from the faith ... and end up rejecting salvation.

But John, I am confused. If Jerry has been chosen and predestined by God, in the way that you described and as Calvin's TULIP describes, Jerry does not have a choice. He was randomly chosen, not because he came to faith by hearing the word, so therefore he can't not change his nature to comform to God's nature.
God is the one who changes him. That is the very essence of chosen and predestination. If you are one of the chosen, you will persevere because God preordained it. Not because in His foreknowledge He knew Jerry would come to faith, but because He made Jerry come. No free will. No free will to choose anything.

You continue to miss my point that ...

Man has NO free will to choose to be chosen, called, etc.,
but man does have the free will to reject that call any time during his lifetime!

To elaborate ...
Man can choose to not obey God's commands!
Man can choose to not co-operate with the Spirit in his sanctification-unto-holiness process!
Man can always choose because God did not create him to be a robot.
Man is only acceptable to God, if he chooses to freely worship God and obey Him, etc.
In the last sentence, we have the case where man is one of the elect of Romans 8:28-30.

P.S. IMO, God has made exceptions with His especially-chosen instruments in both OT & NT.
He had to place some of them under more pressure to comply,
so He could write His Scriptures, which feature them.

Please note: I'm saving this for future copying and pasting.
Will you be a recipient of it?

 

[farouk]

There are so many scriptures that support one never losing their salvation. And I know the power of God in my own life.
...

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:



However, for someone to be content to sin with impunity, whatever one might profess to believe, does leave a question as to whether there was really any work of grace there in the first place.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

In the last sentence, we have the case where man is one of the elect of Romans 8:28-30.

Exactly, so in Jerry's case, if he was chosen, elect, he is predestined to be conformed. He WILL co-operate. If he does Not co-operate (conform), he is NOT a chosen (elect) one. OSAS
Therefore, he was Never saved to begin with. Salvation was determined by God and only God.

If one believes that they had no ability to reject their salvation, (Irresistible Grace) because they are of the elect chosen ones, then they must believe they WILL be conformed (Perseverance of the Saints) or they never were of the elect and were not brought to God by His "I" grace to begin with.
If one is of the elect (in the view of "I" grace) they WILL conform ("P") OSAS. Per Romans 8:28-30. Predestined to conform, if God chose by random selection, those to be saved, they will conform, or were not chosen. There is no getting around that, if you believe that this scripture is saying it has nothing to do with His foreknowledge about that person.

One has to determine what they believe about foreknowledge. Before, they can determine how God chooses. Romans 8:28-30 cannot be understood in any meaningful way until then.

It appears that you have determined, that God chooses (in most cases) randomly, it has nothing to do with His foreknowledge about His own creature, that He created.

I don't see how you can say that if you are an elect chosen one, by your definition applied to scripture, could not believe OSAS.

 

[Deborah13]

However, for someone to be content to sin with impunity, whatever one might profess to believe, does leave a question as to whether there was really any work of grace there in the first place.

True.
For me the decision has to boil down to determining what foreknowledge means. Then a determination about "Irresistible" Grace.

When God chose Jacob not Esau, and He said they were chosen before either of them had sinned, why was that important?
To me, God is saying, salvation is not determined by "works, obeying the Torah". So it must be determined by something else. If you are a Calvinist, nothing determines it, it's just God's random selection?
But was Jacob chosen randomly? I don't think so. His "birthright" came through faith. God spoke to Rebecca "the older shall serve the younger" she acted on that in faith and Jacob also believed and acted on it.
Just my thoughts.

 

[farouk]

However, for someone to be content to sin with impunity, whatever one might profess to believe, does leave a question as to whether there was really any work of grace there in the first place.

True.
For me the decision has to boil down to determining what foreknowledge means. Then a determination about "Irresistible" Grace.

When God chose Jacob not Esau, and He said they were chosen before either of them had sinned, why was that important?
To me, God is saying, salvation is not determined by "works, obeying the Torah". So it must be determined by something else. If you are a Calvinist, nothing determines it, it's just God's random selection?
But was Jacob chosen randomly? I don't think so. His "birthright" came through faith. God spoke to Rebecca "the older shall serve the younger" she acted on that in faith and Jacob also believed and acted on it.
Just my thoughts.

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

One can rationalize, although understanding the mystery of divine grace also has an eternal aspect and is thus to some extent unfathomable.

I like these lines:

'All of grace, yes, grace surpassing
Such a portion to bestow,
But the love, all knowledge passing,
Grace has taught us now to know.

Love that bore the stripes and sorrow,
Love that suffered on the tree,
Love that shares the bright tomorrow,
With the loved ones, you and me.'

(Anon.)

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

However, for someone to be content to sin with impunity, whatever one might profess to believe, does leave a question as to whether there was really any work of grace there in the first place.

True.
For me the decision has to boil down to determining what foreknowledge means. Then a determination about "Irresistible" Grace.

When God chose Jacob not Esau, and He said they were chosen before either of them had sinned, why was that important?
To me, God is saying, salvation is not determined by "works, obeying the Torah". So it must be determined by something else. If you are a Calvinist, nothing determines it, it's just God's random selection?
But was Jacob chosen randomly? I don't think so. His "birthright" came through faith. God spoke to Rebecca "the older shall serve the younger" she acted on that in faith and Jacob also believed and acted on it.
Just my thoughts.

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

One can rationalize, although understanding the mystery of divine grace also has an eternal aspect and is thus to some extent unfathomable.

I like these lines:

'All of grace, yes, grace surpassing
Such a portion to bestow,
But the love, all knowledge passing,
Grace has taught us now to know.

Love that bore the stripes and sorrow,
Love that suffered on the tree,
Love that shares the bright tomorrow,
With the loved ones, you and me.'

(Anon.)

Blessings.

I'll not trying to rationalize anything. I am trying to understand why Paul used the scripture he did. What was he saying?

What do you think? Does God randomly chose people to salvation? Or is salvation determined by faith?

 

[farouk]

However, for someone to be content to sin with impunity, whatever one might profess to believe, does leave a question as to whether there was really any work of grace there in the first place.

True.
For me the decision has to boil down to determining what foreknowledge means. Then a determination about "Irresistible" Grace.

When God chose Jacob not Esau, and He said they were chosen before either of them had sinned, why was that important?
To me, God is saying, salvation is not determined by "works, obeying the Torah". So it must be determined by something else. If you are a Calvinist, nothing determines it, it's just God's random selection?
But was Jacob chosen randomly? I don't think so. His "birthright" came through faith. God spoke to Rebecca "the older shall serve the younger" she acted on that in faith and Jacob also believed and acted on it.
Just my thoughts.

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

One can rationalize, although understanding the mystery of divine grace also has an eternal aspect and is thus to some extent unfathomable.

I like these lines:

'All of grace, yes, grace surpassing
Such a portion to bestow,
But the love, all knowledge passing,
Grace has taught us now to know.

Love that bore the stripes and sorrow,
Love that suffered on the tree,
Love that shares the bright tomorrow,
With the loved ones, you and me.'

(Anon.)

Blessings.

I'll not trying to rationalize anything. I am trying to understand why Paul used the scripture he did. What was he saying?

What do you think? Does God randomly chose people to salvation? Or is salvation determined by faith?

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

Oh, I wasn't being accusatory.

I guess my point was, grace is the key, and it's unfathomable. (Ephesians chs 1 & 2, etc.).

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

One can rationalize, although understanding the mystery of divine grace also has an eternal aspect and is thus to some extent unfathomable.

I like these lines:

'All of grace, yes, grace surpassing
Such a portion to bestow,
But the love, all knowledge passing,
Grace has taught us now to know.

Love that bore the stripes and sorrow,
Love that suffered on the tree,
Love that shares the bright tomorrow,
With the loved ones, you and me.'

(Anon.)

Blessings.

I'll not trying to rationalize anything. I am trying to understand why Paul used the scripture he did. What was he saying?

What do you think? Does God randomly chose people to salvation? Or is salvation determined by faith?

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

Oh, I wasn't being accusatory.

I guess my point was, grace is the key, and it's unfathomable. (Ephesians chs 1 & 2, etc.).

Blessings.

I agree, God's grace and mercy towards us is that unfathomable.

Do you have any thoughts about Paul's scripture reference?

 

[gr8grace]

However, for someone to be content to sin with impunity, whatever one might profess to believe, does leave a question as to whether there was really any work of grace there in the first place.

True.
For me the decision has to boil down to determining what foreknowledge means. Then a determination about "Irresistible" Grace.

When God chose Jacob not Esau, and He said they were chosen before either of them had sinned, why was that important?
To me, God is saying, salvation is not determined by "works, obeying the Torah". So it must be determined by something else. If you are a Calvinist, nothing determines it, it's just God's random selection?
But was Jacob chosen randomly? I don't think so. His "birthright" came through faith. God spoke to Rebecca "the older shall serve the younger" she acted on that in faith and Jacob also believed and acted on it.
Just my thoughts.

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

One can rationalize, although understanding the mystery of divine grace also has an eternal aspect and is thus to some extent unfathomable.

I like these lines:

'All of grace, yes, grace surpassing
Such a portion to bestow,
But the love, all knowledge passing,
Grace has taught us now to know.

Love that bore the stripes and sorrow,
Love that suffered on the tree,
Love that shares the bright tomorrow,
With the loved ones, you and me.'

(Anon.)

Blessings.

I'll not trying to rationalize anything. I am trying to understand why Paul used the scripture he did. What was he saying?

What do you think? Does God randomly chose people to salvation? Or is salvation determined by faith?

It is faith Deb. We all can believe or not believe. What Attribute does God save us through? Sovereignty? Love? omnipotence? Justice? All of His attributes work together perfectly, but God has set a standard, so the standard has to be followed. God will never break the standard that He has set.

That standard that He has set was through His Justice/righteousness, God saves His creatures through His Justice and the standard has been set. His Sovereignty cannot upset his Justice and standard.

Gods Justice/righteousness can never be corrupted, It always function according to the standard of fairness found in Gods righteousness. So Gods Sovereignty can never change or upset the standard or Justice of God. And an Arbitrary Choice would upset Gods own standard and Justice.

Gods Justice/righteousness can never be Arbitrary,impulsive,subjective or eccentric.

The standard of fairness is FAITH. And if it is by faith the standard is for EVERY creature.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it(salvation) [the] righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS [man] SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Gods Love cannot upset the standard.

Gods omnipotence cannot upset the standard.

Gods sovereignty cannot upset the standard.

Gods Foreknowledge can Know the people who follow His standard though.

 

[Deborah13]

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it(salvation) [the] righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS [man] SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

That was a mouth full, and I will have to read it a again. But I think you are right, that is what I determined and have always thought. But I am trying to understand where other people are coming from and then search the scriptures, hoping the Holy Spirit will show me if I am wrong.
I do believe that our salvation is all due to God's grace and mercy. Even the faith that we have to be able to believe the Gospel comes from Him. However, I don't believe it is really His faith, because if it was all people hearing the Gospel would believe it. That would be like saying We have God's Will. No, we follow God's will.

Gods Foreknowledge can Know the people who follow His standard though.

That is part of the subsequent doctrinal belief. What one believes about foreknowledge.

Thanks again for your contribution to the discussion.