God chastises us for our unrepentant sins so that we will turn from them.

[Alabaster]

this is pure nonsence duck!

NO it isn't nonsense.

If you look into the context of scripture, you find all sorts of real treasures.

The church in the letter Jesus dictated to Laodicea was to a place famous for its natural springs, and spa facilities, providing hot mineral baths and cold, fresh water refreshment.

Hot water with salt and/or minerals is soothing and healing to the body. Hence, Jesus reference to people who spiritually are in tune with Him being like soothing, hot water springs.

Cold, fresh water is refreshing and enlivening to the body--hence the positive reference referring to believers who are like Christ in their ways, bringing life and refreshment to the world.

Both of these properties are beneficial to the body. Both spiritually are beneficial! This is what Jesus was referring to when He was saying He would that we be either HOT or COLD, but to be LUKEWARM, we would be distasteful, for warm, saline, flat water induces vomiting. It is useless to the body and is flat and lifeless. Jesus rejects those kinds of believers.

Get out of your North American 21st century mindset and delve into the ancient culture from which Bible writers came...and to whom Jesus spoke. If you don't, you miss so much rich truth of scripture and what God is really telling us.

 

[littlelight]

Rev 3:19
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. KJV

Rev 2:20-23
20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. NKJV

have a great day.

I'm glad that you posted that Jezebel was saved when so many will debate till the cow comes home denying her salvation. So many Christians, especially those who say that you have to promise to be good little children to recieve salvation, would say that jezebel was never saved. It's clear that God is chastening her. If one must repent of all sin and promise never to do them again before one is saved, then how did so many early believers miss this vital piece of information when taught by the likes of Peter, Paul, John, Barnabus, Timothy, James, Etc etc?

Yes, God chastizes His children and here on earth is where that chastizesment takes place.

Thanks for blessing me with a great day. May Jesus smile on you today.

 

[Alabaster]

I'm glad that you posted that Jezebel was saved when so many will debate till the cow comes home denying her salvation.

What? Where do you get that idea?

 

[littlelight]

What? Where do you get that idea?

I'm sorry for painting with a broad brush. In my old church most would not believe that she was saved. They believe that one had to promise to be good boys and girls to recieve salvation. If you continued in sin it meant that you were never saved to begin with.

 

[Alabaster]

I'm sorry for painting with a broad brush. In my old church most would not believe that she was saved. They believe that one had to promise to be good boys and girls to recieve salvation. If you continued in sin it meant that you were never saved to begin with.

The woman, whether her real name was Jezebel or not, was not saved, but a self-proclaimed prophetess, involved in the occult and introduced sexual immorality to that church, poisoning it. We call people who foment rebellion in those ways people with 'a Jezebel spirit' today. They are agents of the enemy, wolves in sheep's clothing, and we are to be vigilant about them.

 

[littlelight]

The woman, whether her real name was Jezebel or not, was not saved, but a self-proclaimed prophetess, involved in the occult and introduced sexual immorality to that church, poisoning it. We call people who foment rebellion in those ways people with 'a Jezebel spirit' today. They are agents of the enemy, wolves in sheep's clothing, and we are to be vigilant about them.

God chastises with the purpose of getting behavior that is acceptable to Him. If a person does not have Jesus as his savior nothing they can do will make them acceptable to God. All our righteousness is as filthy rags until we have the imputed righteousness of Jesus. Even if Jezebel could repent and abstain of her sexual immorality apart from healing through Jesus it would do her no good toward her eternal salvation. In fact if she could stop her sexual immorality, it would harm her because she could claim works in obedience to God's command. God did not tell her to repent and accept the only healing for sin (Jesus), He told her to repent of one particular sin, which is an absolutely futile work apart from Jesus. God was chastising her for one or several sins not for rejecting Jesus.


To those who are unsaved God's offer is accept Jesus or die in your sins. If you are saved God says repent of sin (x) so you can produce fruit.


Rev 3:9
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars — I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.
NIV


Those in the above are unsaved. Note that God does not say that He has given them time to repent of being liars. Why not? Their behavior was hurting His church just like Jezebel's was. The reason God did not tell them to repent of their lying is they had not accepted Jesus. To get into heaven takes Jesus and not just quitting being a liar or just not committing sexual immorality. So until one takes Jesus as their savior God isn't worried about other behavior.

 

[gideon3213]

I'm glad that you posted that Jezebel was saved when so many will debate till the cow comes home denying her salvation. So many Christians, especially those who say that you have to promise to be good little children to recieve salvation, would say that jezebel was never saved. It's clear that God is chastening her. If one must repent of all sin and promise never to do them again before one is saved, then how did so many early believers miss this vital piece of information when taught by the likes of Peter, Paul, John, Barnabus, Timothy, James, Etc etc?

Yes, God chastizes His children and here on earth is where that chastizesment takes place.

Thanks for blessing me with a great day. May Jesus smile on you today.

Hello littllight, I am afraid that your theology is not correct; God requires repentance before he will forgive you. This is off topic, but I will give you a quick leason on the subject:

Repent: i.e. turn from your sin's. being sincere in you willingness to forsake all that displease's God.

A. Isa 55:6-7 6 Seek the LORD while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near. 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon. (NKJ)

A. Isa 1:16-18 16 "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Cease to do evil, 17 Learn to do good; seek justice, rebuke the oppressor; defend the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 "Come now, and let us reason together," says the LORD, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (NKJ) Note that repentance come's before forgiveness.

In Acts 8 Simon sinned. What was Peter's remedy?

1. Told Simon his sin (v.20-21)
2. Told Simon to "repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart MAY be forgiven you.(V.22)
3. Peter end's by stating root sin's that separated Simon from God. (i.e. bitterness and iniquity v.23)

Here we see that even though one repents they still may not be forgiven by God! for the word 'may' in the text does not garantee forgiveness. if the word was 'shall' instead, then it would mean that if you repented you would automaticaly be forgiven. But is say's 'may' because there are sins that you can commit that God will not forgive, no matter how much you repent, or beg for mercy! (Heb 12:15-17
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. KJV)


(cont)

 

[gideon3213]

Jesus came to call people to repentance:

Mt 9:13 "But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." (NKJ)

Mk 2:17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." (NKJ)

Lk 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance." (NKJ)

Lk 24:46-47 46 Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (NKJ)

Acts 3:26 "To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities." (NKJ)

The 1st word's Jesus preached after His 40 day fast and temptation was "Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand". (Mt 4:17,Mk 1:15)


The apostles called people to repentance:


Acts 2:38-39 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." (NKJ)

Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, (NKJ) (Note: repentance is essential for forgiveness!) note that repentance has to be done before your sins are bloted out!

Acts 5:31 "Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. (NKJ)

(note: repentance first; than forgiveness of sins.)

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life." (NKJ)
Acts 14:15 and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, (NKJ)

Acts 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, (NKJ)

Here we see that repentance is commanded by God! Thus it is not optional!

Acts 20:21 "testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (NKJ)

Acts 26:17-18 17 `I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 `to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' (NKJ) note that they must turn from darkness to the light before their sins are forgiven!

Acts 26:20 "but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. (NKJ) notice that the apostles preached repentance, as a condition of salvation, everywhere that they went!

II Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (NKJ) Here again we see repentance as a condition of salvation. there can be no forgiveness of sins without it!

Heb 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, (NKJ)

This passage make's it clear that repentance is:

1. An elementary principle of Christ.

2. A part of the foundation of the faith. (i.e. salvation)

So when we read all other scripture's that deal with salvation, (i.e. Rom 10:9-11, Eph 2:8-10, I Cor 15:1-11, Lk 18:13, etc.) we must understand that repentance, as a necessary step of salvation, is already understood by the people who received those writing's. (I.e. the Roman's, Ephesians, Corinthian's, etc.) They understood that repentance is a standard part of the gospel that the apostle's taught. Therefore it was a standard part of the gospel that they taught other's. Therefore it was not necessary for the apostle's to repeat in their epistle's these fundamental truth's. For it was clearly taught to them when Paul, Peter, and other's 1st founded the church’s in those region's. And it is essential that we come to understand these truth's as well!

have a great day

 

[Alabaster]

Even if Jezebel could repent and abstain of her sexual immorality apart from healing through Jesus it would do her no good toward her eternal salvation. In fact if she could stop her sexual immorality, it would harm her because she could claim works in obedience to God's command. God did not tell her to repent and accept the only healing for sin (Jesus), He told her to repent of one particular sin, which is an absolutely futile work apart from Jesus. God was chastising her for one or several sins not for rejecting Jesus.

That is so presumptuous, I am speechless.

To those who are unsaved God's offer is accept Jesus or die in your sins. If you are saved God says repent of sin (x) so you can produce fruit.

Yep.

Rev 3:9
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars — I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. NIV

Those in the above are unsaved. Note that God does not say that He has given them time to repent of being liars. Why not? Their behavior was hurting His church just like Jezebel's was. The reason God did not tell them to repent of their lying is they had not accepted Jesus. To get into heaven takes Jesus and not just quitting being a liar or just not committing sexual immorality. So until one takes Jesus as their savior God isn't worried about other behavior.

What are you getting at? God gives everyone ample time and opportunity to repent!

 

[gideon3213]

LOL! Well, you aren't going to negate all that Jesus has done for you on the cross by stealing a pen. You block His spirit working in you--you quench Him, and you will forfeit reward if you do not repent of it, but if you know Jesus Christ, you will repent or we are left wondering if you are saved at all.

Let's be real here, though...every single Christian will see Jesus Christ at His Bema Seat with some stain of sin on Him. That is why our works must pass through the fire. We cannot be so rigid and perfect in our walk with God that every sin or sinful thought or attitude has been taken to the foot of the cross!

Jesus died for all our sin, past present and future. We are His once and for all.

Please read my treatise on the truth that a true christian can indeed loose their salvation.

This is the title of my post:

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/...r-can-forfiet-their-salvation-treatise-32593/

 

[Alabaster]

Please read my treatise on the truth that a true christian can indeed loose their salvation.

This is the title of my post:

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/...r-can-forfiet-their-salvation-treatise-32593/

No...

 

[glorydaz]

Amen to the "chastening" teaching. I see this verse in Rev. uses the word repent. Young's rightly uses "reform", since these are believers.

Rev 3:19
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. KJV

Here we see repent used correctly...Jezebel was not saved and those who followed her weren't either.

Rev 2:20-23
20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. NKJV

have a great day.

 

[glorydaz]

Come on man, look at the bible, When the bible says things like "you have forsaken you first love" means they were once "hot" and now God will spit them out of his mouth (how do you spit out what was never there to begin with), the bible is clear on this... Jesus wrote to the 7 churches asking some of them to turn (repent), so he wouldn't have to remove their lampstand (loss salvation), this teaching is very simple.... there is no point in 3/4 of the bible if you can never lose salvation.... How many people would go to work if they could never be fired, pretty much everyone would just sit at home and collect paychecks....

Churches are filled with people who get all excited when they first hear the Gospel, unfortunately, like the young ruler they do not forsake all and follow the Lord. There has not been true repentance until they see sin as abhorant...that includes the love for their possessions.

The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Only people who are born of God, new creatures with circumcized hearts, will follow out of love rather than compulsion....buried and risen with Christ.

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

 

[glorydaz]

if we sin willfully.
so if we sin after we know what that its sin then we cant be forgiven.

You don't actually believe that's what that means, do you?

 

[jasoncran]

You don't actually believe that's what that means, do you?

no, but if he takes to mean we can loose one salvation then he has to take that as fact.

and also that verse about those that depart says that if they were truly among us they wouldnt have departed

i do believe that one can loose his salvation but that is very hard to do so.

otherwise why warnings of make sure your salvation and also what of the parts that you are debating in that thread sin about the gentile being removed from the tree.

paul is also telling the gentile the same thing can happen to you if you arent careful.

this doenst mean we are to be so insecure that we always thinks God wants to get us or its easily loosable but that we need to be in awe and reverence of the Lord as he did save us.

we shouldnt think , what sin can i get away with and make it to heaven, if you have to ask that then i seriously doubt your salvation.

 

[glorydaz]

um, this thread is not about the loss of salvation. it is about God chastising us for our sins so that we will turn from them and walk in holiness before God. But it is true that if you harden your heart when God chastises you, and you absolutely will not repent of your sin, that you will come to a point where you will lose your salvation! For if the chastisement does not bring you to repentance, then there is nothing more that God will do. HE will not allow willful, unrepeantant, hard harted, rebelious people in His heaven!

Happy new year.

So you don't believe the Lord, the author and FINISHER of our faith, is ABLE to finish the work He began in us?

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

We have an everlasting covenant with God when we become sons. He puts fear into our hearts so that we will not depart from Him. He chastens His sons when they disobey. Anyone who has been chastened by the Lord knows just how seriously He takes His commitment to conform us into His image. He does not spare the rod of correction, and we know He never gives up on us until we return to fellowship with Him.

And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[glorydaz]

no, but if he takes to mean we can loose one salvation then he has to take that as fact.

and also that verse about those that depart says that if they were truly among us they wouldnt have departed

i do believe that one can loose his salvation but that is very hard to do so.

otherwise why warnings of make sure your salvation and also what of the parts that you are debating in that thread sin about the gentile being removed from the tree.

paul is also telling the gentile the same thing can happen to you if you arent careful.

this doenst mean we are to be so insecure that we always thinks God wants to get us or its easily loosable but that we need to be in awe and reverence of the Lord as he did save us.

we shouldnt think , what sin can i get away with and make it to heaven, if you have to ask that then i seriously doubt your salvation.

Yes, He did save us and gave us eternal life, too. If we don't hate sin, the Lord hasn't circumcised our hearts, we've only tried to circumcise our own. In other words, we haven't been born again a new creation. We can't go by what man professes...only the Lord knows the heart of man. When believers sin, they put themselves out of fellowhip with the Lord, but He is faithful where we are not, and He will lose none the Father has given Him.

The Gentiles, the whole world, have been brought into the New Covenant...we get saved by grace through faith when we believe. Mankind has been reconciled to God through the cross and the blood, we still need to be born again in order to obtain the promises. In Romans 11, Paul is not talking about being "grafted" into Christ. We must be born into newness of life.

 

[Alabaster]

Yes, He did save us and gave us eternal life, too. If we don't hate sin, the Lord hasn't circumcised our hearts, we've only tried to circumcise our own. In other words, we haven't been born again a new creation. We can't go by what man professes...only the Lord knows the heart of man. When believers sin, they put themselves out of fellowhip with the Lord, but He is faithful where we are not, and He will lose none the Father has given Him.

The Gentiles, the whole world, have been brought into the New Covenant...we get saved by grace through faith when we believe. Mankind has been reconciled to God through the cross and the blood, we still need to be born again in order to obtain the promises. In Romans 11, Paul is not talking about being "grafted" into Christ. We must be born into newness of life.

Great, glory!

 

[gideon3213]

Yes, He did save us and gave us eternal life, too. If we don't hate sin, the Lord hasn't circumcised our hearts, we've only tried to circumcise our own. In other words, we haven't been born again a new creation. We can't go by what man professes...only the Lord knows the heart of man. When believers sin, they put themselves out of fellowhip with the Lord, but He is faithful where we are not, and He will lose none the Father has given Him.

The Gentiles, the whole world, have been brought into the New Covenant...we get saved by grace through faith when we believe. Mankind has been reconciled to God through the cross and the blood, we still need to be born again in order to obtain the promises. In Romans 11, Paul is not talking about being "grafted" into Christ. We must be born into newness of life.

When you are born into newness of life, you are also grafted into christ and grafted into Israel; i.e. you become a jew!

Rom 2:25-29
For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. NKJV

Rom 11:15-26
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: KJV

John 15:1-6
5:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. KJV

Happy new year

 

[jasoncran]

Yes, He did save us and gave us eternal life, too. If we don't hate sin, the Lord hasn't circumcised our hearts, we've only tried to circumcise our own. In other words, we haven't been born again a new creation. We can't go by what man professes...only the Lord knows the heart of man. When believers sin, they put themselves out of fellowhip with the Lord, but He is faithful where we are not, and He will lose none the Father has given Him.

The Gentiles, the whole world, have been brought into the New Covenant...we get saved by grace through faith when we believe. Mankind has been reconciled to God through the cross and the blood, we still need to be born again in order to obtain the promises. In Romans 11, Paul is not talking about being "grafted" into Christ. We must be born into newness of life.

then why did paul mention that if the jew was removed that the gentile was able to removed

i paraphrase 'for if God spared not the natural branches, think not that he wont spare you when have unbelief?'

let me ask you this.

if a believer kills another and never ever repents yet was a pastor, holy ghost taught and turns 180 from God and dies

was he saved? or not?

i dont think we can mock God like that and get away with so easily.

if the love of christ is him he will repent if not then he either wasnt saved in the first place or walked away.

to quote adrian rogers

'as a parent we often will grab a kids hand and move him when he doesnt want to move off the street"

now if God does that to his own, kinda of calvinistic isnt it and rogers was no calvinist

food for thought, Does God overide our will or not? Does he make us serve him or not?
if the answer is no then reconcile what you have just told me as that my friend is a calvinistic concept
called perserverance of the saints.

thus limited freewill must be then for the man.