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God No One Has Seen At Any Time

Runningman said:
That isn't about Jesus. That is a prophecy of what John the Baptist was going to say regarding God. In regards to Jesus, John said in John 1:30 "This is He of whom I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’


Once again, this is about John the Baptist's baptism for repentance. In calling the people of Israel to repentance, the way for God is made clear. That isn't about John preparing the way for Jesus. Jesus' disciples were also baptizing people for the same reason because it was a commandment from God.

John 4​
1When Jesus realized that the Pharisees were aware He was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John 2(although it was not Jesus who baptized, but His disciples),​

Because of the call to repentance. Even Jesus himself partook in John's water baptism of repentance. How could you insist YHWH is taking a water baptism of repentance?

Acts 19​
4Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance...​


1 Corinthians 10:9 isn't about something Jesus did in the past. It's about the example of what happened to those in the past serving as a warning for what can happen in the present. Just read the context.

1 Corinthians 10​
11Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.​

The actions of YHWH are not those of Jesus. See Psalm 110:1 as an example. They are not the same person.


Yes, call on the name of YHWH to be saved. There is no verse about calling on the name of Jesus to be saved. Salvation originates from YHWH, not Jesus. Jesus is God's sacrificial lamb, the Messiah He installed, but the power of salvation comes from God, the gospel came from God, etc.

John 12​
49I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it. 50And I know that His command leads to eternal life. So I speak exactly what the Father has told Me to say.”​

It's about YHWH, not Jesus. It's very plainly there in what you quoted.


Once again about YHWH. Look at the context. In Romans 10:11, it says "It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”

Now compare Romans 10:11 to Isaiah 28:16:

Isaiah 28:16​
16So this is what the Lord GOD says:​
“See, I lay a stone in Zion,​
a tested stone,​
a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation;​
the one who believes will never be shaken.​

The stone that YHWH laid is the cornerstone, Jesus. YHWH and Jesus are clearly not the same person.

That's not what is happening.


Perfect. Now you know with certainty that Jesus is not God. YHWH, the Father, is the only true God. John 17:3.


Correct again. Jesus does not get any glory in heaven, earth, or under earth when he is bowed to. All glory goes to God, known as the Father, known as YHWH.


Why would Jesus be YHWH when he doesn't get any glory when he's bowed to?


Psalm 110:1 proves that Jesus isn't YHWH beyond any doubt and many of the verses you quoted directly refute your premise.

Furthermore, Jesus denied being equal to God:

John 10​
29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all....​
​
John 14​
28...the Father is greater than I.​
Click to expand...

John 1.1 and 1.18 in the original is beyond any doubt Jesus Christ is YHWH
 
Runningman said:
Fine, I'll bite. What is "the original" of John 1.1 and John 1.18?
Click to expand...

The Incomparable Jesus Christ In The Prologue of John

This Prologue of the Gospel of John, which is from verse 1, to verse 18, is all about “ο λογος (THE WORD)”. It is very hard to understand, how anyone can read this entire passage in John chapter 1, about Jesus Christ, and then continue to deny that HE IS YHWH? The first words of this Gospel...
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Jesus Christ Claims to be Yahweh - John 8:23-25

“And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins for if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins. Then they said to Him, Who are You? And Jesus said to them, “Just...
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SolaScriptura said:

The Incomparable Jesus Christ In The Prologue of John

This Prologue of the Gospel of John, which is from verse 1, to verse 18, is all about “ο λογος (THE WORD)”. It is very hard to understand, how anyone can read this entire passage in John chapter 1, about Jesus Christ, and then continue to deny that HE IS YHWH? The first words of this Gospel...
christianforums.net
Click to expand...
It's lengthy, but I can't find your explanation to be Scriptural. There are too many exceptions in John's writings for Jesus to be a literal pre-existent being known as the Word.

For starters, beginning in John 1:1, there are two uses of the word for god present in the Greek. Most English translations I've seen, for some reason, do not capture this accurately; I suspect for dogmatic purposes because a literal translation of John 1:1 is an argument against the Trinity.

The first usage of God in John 1:1 is ton Theon which literally means the God. The second usage of god is theos which means god. The reason John wrote it this way, using two different usages of god in John 1:1, is because he is showing awareness that the God and god are distinct and are not the same person.

A literal translation of John 1:1, assuming that Jesus was a pre-existent being in some form or fashion, would be that the Word was a god. If we assume Jesus is not a pre-existent being then the Word becomes a quality of God and is therefore godly, but a thing. Using theos to describe something or someone that is godly is a valid usage of the word theos. You can check this is 2 Cor. 1:12, 7:9-11 for some examples.

With that being said, a literal translation of John 1:1 doesn't support the idea that the definitive God is the Word, but rather a god or something godly.

So did Jesus pre-exist? Arguably, no. There are no clear examples of Jesus saying or doing anything in the Old Testament. There are no stories about what he was doing exactly before the world existed. Even under different names, there are no examples of a being called the Word who was with God in Genesis or any of the other statements about God creating. There are no stories about a "God the Son" sitting at God's right hand in the Old Testament. Jesus didn't sit down at God's right hand until after he was born, died, resurrected, and was taken to heaven as a man in Mark 16:19.

With that being said, there isn't any evidence that John's narrative, beginning in John 1:1, is literal. However, there are many examples of God using words in creation or otherwise as a thing that personification was applied to in examples of poetry in Psalms:

Psalm 33:6​
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and all the stars by the breath of His mouth.​
​
Psalm 107:20​
He sent forth His word and healed them; He rescued them from the Pit.​
​
Psalm 147:15​
He sends forth His command to the earth; His word runs swiftly.​
​
Isaiah 55:11​
so My word that proceeds from My mouth​
will not return to Me empty,​
but it will accomplish what I please,​
and it will prosper where I send it.​

In addition to all of that, we can't even use the Greek definition of the Word to make a direct link to Jesus because logos in the Greek means a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy.

That's just verse 1. When the foundation is properly understood then we can look at the rest of John's story. John's story keeps in step with what John said in 1 John 1:1-3, which, in summary, says that in the beginning of Jesus' ministry the Word of Life was an it, a thing, that was revealed or manifested in a man with whom the disciples had fellowship.
 
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Runningman said:
It's lengthy, but I can't find your explanation to be Scriptural. There are too many exceptions in John's writings for Jesus to be a literal pre-existent being known as the Word.

For starters, beginning in John 1:1, there are two uses of the word for god present in the Greek. Most English translations I've seen, for some reason, do not capture this accurately; I suspect for dogmatic purposes because a literal translation of John 1:1 is an argument against the Trinity.

The first usage of God in John 1:1 is ton Theon which literally means the God. The second usage of god is theos which means god. The reason John wrote it this way, using two different usages of god in John 1:1, is because he is showing awareness that the God and god are distinct and are not the same person.

A literal translation of John 1:1, assuming that Jesus was a pre-existent being in some form or fashion, would be that the Word was a god. If we assume Jesus is not a pre-existent being then the Word becomes a quality of God and is therefore godly, but a thing. Using theos to describe something or someone that is godly is a valid usage of the word theos. You can check this is 2 Cor. 1:12, 7:9-11 for some examples.

With that being said, a literal translation of John 1:1 doesn't support the idea that the definitive God is the Word, but rather a god or something godly.

So did Jesus pre-exist? Arguably, no. There are no clear examples of Jesus saying or doing anything in the Old Testament. There are no stories about what he was doing exactly before the world existed. Even under different names, there are no examples of a being called the Word who was with God in Genesis or any of the other statements about God creating. There are no stories about a "God the Son" sitting at God's right hand in the Old Testament. Jesus didn't sit down at God's right hand until after he was born, died, resurrected, and was taken to heaven as a man in Mark 16:19.

With that being said, there isn't any evidence that John's narrative, beginning in John 1:1, is literal. However, there are many examples of God using words in creation or otherwise as a thing that personification was applied to in examples of poetry in Psalms:

Psalm 33:6​
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and all the stars by the breath of His mouth.​
​
Psalm 107:20​
He sent forth His word and healed them; He rescued them from the Pit.​
​
Psalm 147:15​
He sends forth His command to the earth; His word runs swiftly.​
​
Isaiah 55:11​
so My word that proceeds from My mouth​
will not return to Me empty,​
but it will accomplish what I please,​
and it will prosper where I send it.​

In addition to all of that, we can't even use the Greek definition of the Word to make a direct link to Jesus because logos in the Greek means a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy.

That's just verse 1. When the foundation is properly understood then we can look at the rest of John's story. John's story keeps in step with what John said in 1 John 1:1-3, which, in summary, says that in the beginning of Jesus' ministry the Word of Life was an it, a thing, that was revealed or manifested in a man with whom the disciples had fellowship.
Click to expand...


Nothing of what you have written answers what I have written. You are giving your personal theology which is not what the Bible actually teaches
 
Runningman said:
Your premise is that Jesus is God, YHWH, Almighty. Your theology was refuted.
Click to expand...

You and those who share your views will NEVER be able to refute what the Bible Teaches about Jesus Christ as YHWH

You simply ignore or twist the Bible when it PROVES you are WRONG!

I have no desire to further discuss with you or the other rejectors of the TRUTH
 
SolaScriptura said:
You and those who share your views will NEVER be able to refute what the Bible Teaches about Jesus Christ as YHWH

You simply ignore or twist the Bible when it PROVES you are WRONG!
Click to expand...
I will just stick with what the Bible says.

SolaScriptura said:
I have no desire to further discuss with you or the other rejectors of the TRUTH
Click to expand...
That's okay. You don't have to read what I say or respond anymore. :)
 
SolaScriptura said:
Regardless of one's own theology, John 1.18 is very clear that there are TWO distinct Persons Who are equally GOD

No one can disprove this from the Original Greek text
Click to expand...
As I stated the only true God, our Heavenly Father. (unbegotten)
And God the begotten. Our Lord

Its not just "only" but the only "offspring" as in Son or Daughter of a parent.
Luke 7:12; Luke 8:42; Luke 9:38; John 1:18

In regard to Deity all the deity of God was pleased to dwell in Him so He is all the Father is.

But the one who is that Deity in Himself, God our Father and Jesus's Father is the greater.

I doubt we will ever agree unless the Lord informs you otherwise.
 
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