God or money?

[WIP]

Money is a necessity to further the work of the Gospel.

Nathan, could you expand on this. I'm having a difficult time agreeing with the statemen you made, quoted above.

Am I not furthering the work of the Gospel when I share the good news with others? I don't need money to do that and in fact, I would not feel right accepting money to do that. Is it not my calling and duty as someone claiming the title Christian to share the gospel with others? After all, Jesus did say that we are to let our light shine so others can see it in our good works and glorify the Father in heaven.

 

[JohnDB]

I think imagination needs to be an important part of this discussion. For example, consider Nathan12's earlier comments. He cannot imagine a situation in which Jesus can be preached without a reliance on money. His dependence on money is so ingrained that he likens a system where we work for love as some kind of peter pan fantasy (i.e. something ridiculous and unrealistic).

It is because we have grown up in a system where demanding payment is normal that we find it ridiculous to imagine an alternative where people work for one another because they love one another. This is why the born again message is so important; we are meant to break out of this thinking that service to money is the only way to survive.

The only reason it sounds ridiculous to live by faith in love vs a paycheck is because we humans have made it that way. Money doesn't make food grow. It doesn't make the sun shine or the rain fall. It doesn't Build houses or sew clothing. It only has as much importance as we choose to give it.

This is a teaching about motivation; why we do what we do? Consider JohnDB's comments. He says the only reason he works is to get money and he strives for the most money he can get while he's at it. Presumably JohnDB performs work which is useful in some way, but to his thinking he does not perform this work because it is useful to others. He performs this work because he wants top dollar. If someone does not pay him for his work, then he has no incentive to help that person despite whatever genuine need they may have. It may be that JohnDB does, at times, help those in need without demanding payment, but even then those would be the exceptions rather than the rule.

Motivation is all important to God when it comes to how/why we behave. We should work hard to promote the kingdom of Heaven whether that work be preaching or something physically practical. If we work according to the values of this world, where we only help one another if we get paid for it, then we are not demonstrating the values of Heaven. Our work will not be a witness to the world that Jesus really is a better way.

Boy howdy you are very judgemental in your false assumptions.
Just about everything you said about me is wrong as to how I do my job and my attitude in the work I'm capable of.

So exactly what authority do you claim?
You obviously aren't a prophet.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi all. Over on a couple different threads the topic of Jesus and money has come up consistently so it seems worth starting a thread dealing with just that one issue. To start things off, I'd like to post a short (12 minute) video which details the issue well, though I don't mind if you'd like to comment on the topic without watching the video. I'll paste a short explanation for the video below it, as well. Let me know what you think!

Most of us know that greed is a sin, but Jesus took it much further. He challenged our motivation for work. The New Testament says “covetousness is idolatry”. So the love of money and idols have much in common. God hates them both! Jesus says the ultimate choice is whether we are going to work for God, or work for the purpose of getting money.; we cannot serve God AND mammon at the same time. Which have you chosen: God or money? Maybe it's time to get a different employer!

Hi, and yes, i watched the video. I don't think it gives a complete picture and infers at the end we quit our jobs and dedicate 100% of our time to preaching or helping.

Paul was a tent maker and often worked instead of taking donations. In 2 Thessalonians he said if you don't work, you don't eat. You see, the church in Thessalonica thought the world was coming to an end and like this video seems to suggest, they quit their jobs to dedicate themselves wholly to God.

Paul tells us that whatever we do, we do it unto the Lord. I take this to mean that when i go to work at my place of employment, i do it for the Lord.

What does this mean? How can the code i write for my company be something for the Lord?

I believe there are many levels to this, and it starts with our attitude. As Jesus said, where your treasure is, your heart will follow. Our heart wants material blessings, but we cannot let these things become our treasure.

If God is our treasure, our heart will follow the ways of our Lord, so when we are blessed with material things, we understand they are gifts and talents from God, and we need to be thankful for them and put them to Godly use.

God can use us within our work environment, and the harvest is plentiful. My prayer has always been this. Lord, put me where you want me. Let me talk to those you would have me talk to and listen from those i need to listen to.

In other words, God knows i need to put a roof over my family and keep them fed. I don't work my job so i can buy a new car, although i have two new cars. I go to work for the Lord, to plant seeds and live my faith as an example. And God provides these opportunities and my bills get paid every month.

Here is a story for you. Last year i purchased this site for $5,000. I didn't have the cash, so i put it on my credit card. The very next day layoffs were announced. Final layoffs occurred early this year. Thankfully i kept my job, but many co-workers did not.

Either way, i knew God would provide. It wasn't comfortable to go through, but i didn't go through it alone. Many of my co-workers didn't know what to do, and i brought a calm into the room. I was able to be a blessing to others and instead of them focusing on the material losses, i was able to remind them of the blessings they have in the ones who love them.

God knows my needs, and He provides. To him who is given much, much is expected. God has given me stewardship of this site, and my desire is that it brings glory to God because God knows I'm not going to get rich off this site lol, but making money was never my motive for purchasing it.

 

[stovebolts]

Boy howdy you are very judgemental in your false assumptions.
Just about everything you said about me is wrong as to how I do my job and my attitude in the work I'm capable of.

So exactly what authority do you claim?
You obviously aren't a prophet.

I don't know John, you did say this.

Well I have a job solely to make money. I don't do it for love or anything else but money... and I make sure that I get top dollar for it.

Now, if i didn't know you and took your words at face value, i might assume the same thing as he did.

However, i do know you and i know your character and i think your so humble, you don't realize how giving you actually are.

Point is, i know you well enough to know your not out chasing dollars so you can buy more stuff for yourself. Your not out building bigger barns... That's not the John I know. You would rather be out doing missionary work somewhere, but you have to work to make money like the rest of us to pay your bills and continue to provide for others as our Lord has put on your heart.

So no, i don't believe you work just for the money. You work to provide for others which is what God would have you do.

 

[WIP]

Paul tells us that whatever we do, we do it unto the Lord. I take this to mean that when i go to work at my place of employment, i do it for the Lord.

What does this mean? How can the code i write for my company be something for the Lord?

I believe a big part of this is dealing honestly with all I do. I quote modifications and rebuilds for equipment that our customers have had for years. There are times when I know I could easily use dishonest practices to improve our bottom line but I refuse to do that. In fact, I have found myself at odds with management on occasion when I felt the push to be dishonest such as exaggerating the hours required or the parts cost and so on.

Another way is in how I treat my coworkers. Treat them with respect and dignity and do my best to work out disagreements in the same way.

 

[stovebolts]

I believe a big part of this is dealing honestly with all I do. I quote modifications and rebuilds for equipment that our customers have had for years. There are times when I know I could easily use dishonest practices to improve our bottom line but I refuse to do that. In fact, I have found myself at odds with management on occasion when I felt the push to be dishonest such as exaggerating the hours required or the parts cost and so on.

Another way is in how I treat my coworkers. Treat them with respect and dignity and do my best to work out disagreements in the same way.

Very good points! And when i think about it that way, its not just because it's the right thing to do, but it's who God wants us to be. In this way, we can shine Gods light in those dark places.

 

[Truthfrees]

I think imagination needs to be an important part of this discussion. For example, consider Nathan12's earlier comments. He cannot imagine a situation in which Jesus can be preached without a reliance on money. His dependence on money is so ingrained that he likens a system where we work for love as some kind of peter pan fantasy (i.e. something ridiculous and unrealistic).

you asked that we not discuss you and now you are discussing other members and judging them negatively simply because they disagree with your pov?

you have also alluded to throw a stick at a pack of dogs and see which dog you hit?

what are you doing here?

are you trying to build community or tear it down because you think we all are unbiblical and you alone are right on track?

building community does NOT mean correcting everyone else's pov

it means find something you AGREE with and start building healthy relationships based on common good ground

your scorched earth approach to all the wonderful people here is not appreciated

 

[Truthfrees]

Money is a necessity to further the work of the Gospel.

Nathan, could you expand on this. I'm having a difficult time agreeing with the statemen you made, quoted above.

Am I not furthering the work of the Gospel when I share the good news with others? I don't need money to do that and in fact, I would not feel right accepting money to do that. Is it not my calling and duty as someone claiming the title Christian to share the gospel with others? After all, Jesus did say that we are to let our light shine so others can see it in our good works and glorify the Father in heaven.

God is awesome

 

[Truthfrees]

But the Prosperity Gospel is an abomination.

praying

 

[Nathan12]

Am I not furthering the work of the Gospel when I share the good news with others?

Yes, but unless you had already paid all your bills and creditors, and provided for the survival of yourself and your family, you would be remiss. And that is why money is a necessity to further the work of the Gospel.

Paul makes it crystal clear in his epistles, that no matter what our ministry is:
1. We must work to eat and owe no man anything
2. We must provide for our families and relatives
3. We must financially support those who labor in the Word
4. We must offer hospitality in our homes
5. We must care for widows and orphans in their need
6. We must support missionaries in their work

Without hard cash none of this would be possible. Money is meant to be a blessing to be invested in the Kingdom of God. But it becomes a curse when it is hoarded or used unwisely or made into an idol. As John said "Little children, keep yourselves from idols".

 

[WIP]

Yes, but unless you had already paid all your bills and creditors, and provided for the survival of yourself and your family, you would be remiss. And that is why money is a necessity to further the work of the Gospel.

This is true if money is required for survival. It is possible, although remote in today's society, for someone to live without a need for money. I'm thinking of a couple examples.

1. A homeless person that feeds and clothes himself/herself from the generosity or scraps left by others.
2. A person that is taken in and cared for by others.
3. A person following Jesus' command given to His disciples as recorded in Mark 6:8. This person would be similar to example 1 above.

 

[JohnDB]

I don't know John, you did say this.

Well I have a job solely to make money. I don't do it for love or anything else but money... and I make sure that I get top dollar for it.

Now, if i didn't know you and took your words at face value, i might assume the same thing as he did.

However, i do know you and i know your character and i think your so humble, you don't realize how giving you actually are.

Point is, i know you well enough to know your not out chasing dollars so you can buy more stuff for yourself. Your not out building bigger barns... That's not the John I know. You would rather be out doing missionary work somewhere, but you have to work to make money like the rest of us to pay your bills and continue to provide for others as our Lord has put on your heart.

So no, i don't believe you work just for the money. You work to provide for others which is what God would have you do.

Well yeah...I love giving...it's one of my favorite things to do. I wish I could give more than I use. Not to be though.
If God wanted me rich He woulda done it by now I recon. I usually have more than enough...and sometimes I have given out of my needs and done without. But as it sits currently I could still go scuba diving if I ever considered taking back God's money and spending it on myself...but I won't. (Stupid truck motor!)

And to do all the giving I do...it takes money. Lots of money. I have to get top dollar for my labor.
One day hopefully I can retire from the day to day grind... probably not but I can dream.

I'll never stop working...but maybe one day stop earning a living.

 

[JohnDB]

Money is always needed to further God's Kingdom in the usual fashion.

Doctors and Nurses need drugs and supplies or they can't do anything.
Food for the poor, glasses for the elderly, vitamins for the undernourished...

Bibles come from printers. Translators need to be paid. Explanation materials need written and printed.

People need to see actions and not empty words.

People won't care what you say until they know that you care about them.

 

[stovebolts]

Well yeah...I love giving...it's one of my favorite things to do. I wish I could give more than I use. Not to be though.
If God wanted me rich He woulda done it by now I recon. I usually have more than enough...and sometimes I have given out of my needs and done without. But as it sits currently I could still go scuba diving if I ever considered taking back God's money and spending it on myself...but I won't. (Stupid truck motor!)

And to do all the giving I do...it takes money. Lots of money. I have to get top dollar for my labor.
One day hopefully I can retire from the day to day grind... probably not but I can dream.

I'll never stop working...but maybe one day stop earning a living.

Yeah... Sorry about your engine. I know it's ALL my fault lol!

But seriously, were nothing other than stewards of Gods blessing. I know we can all get in a rut and start to think were just working for money. But it's just Satan sucking us into earthly things.

When i thought i was losing my job, it really sunk in that what i do had very little to do with what I do... Because what I do gives me an opportunity to share who God is through me and that's because God is my treasure.

God will provide the material blessings we need each day, but not as a reward because those gifts aren't ours... We are simply stewards.

 

[lisa-in-FL]

This is true if money is required for survival. It is possible, although remote in today's society, for someone to live without a need for money. I'm thinking of a couple examples.

1. A homeless person that feeds and clothes himself/herself from the generosity or scraps left by others.
2. A person that is taken in and cared for by others.
3. A person following Jesus' command given to His disciples as recorded in Mark 6:8. This person would be similar to example 1 above.

The person in these examples may not need money themselves but the people caring for them can't do it without money.

 

[john darling]

Doctors and Nurses need drugs and supplies or they can't do anything.

Yeah, in the worldy system we currently live in, where money makes the world go round, it's difficult for people to get the help they need when they don't have money to pay for that help.

That is exactly the problem.

 

[lisa-in-FL]

Well yeah...I love giving...it's one of my favorite things to do. I wish I could give more than I use. Not to be though.
If God wanted me rich He woulda done it by now I recon. I usually have more than enough...and sometimes I have given out of my needs and done without. But as it sits currently I could still go scuba diving if I ever considered taking back God's money and spending it on myself...but I won't. (Stupid truck motor!)

And to do all the giving I do...it takes money. Lots of money. I have to get top dollar for my labor.
One day hopefully I can retire from the day to day grind... probably not but I can dream.

I'll never stop working...but maybe one day stop earning a living.

Raise your hand if you think JohnDB deserves to go scuba diving!!

 

[john darling]

you asked that we not discuss you and now you are discussing other members

Nah. I'm discussing the words a member posted here about himself. Even Stovebolts recognized that JohnDB gaffed a bit by boasting that he only works for money, and top dollar at that.

you have also alluded to throw a stick at a pack of dogs and see which dog you hit?

Yes. The implication is that, when talking about the ideal of God vs money, you can usually spot who has a problem with money by who most strongly objects to the topic. I realize JohnDB is an administrator here, which means he holds a place of trust and maturity. I do not object to those qualities in him. As stovebolts suggests, JohnDB has some fantastic qualities. I would not like to quench those qualities through criticism, and yet, what is the alternative? Should I keep quiet if JohnDB expresses displeasure with my interpretations? The administrator tag carries a lot of weight behind it. Thank God I am not one who is intimidated by it.

it means find something you AGREE with and start building healthy relationships based on common good ground

I understand unity is important, but if that unity comes at the cost of keeping silent about sensitive issues which may offend others, then you're not really promoting a healthy relationship.

Conspiracy of silence (expression) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Nathan12]

Raise your hand if you think JohnDB deserves to go scuba diving!!

Only if he is donating himself as fish food.

 

[john darling]

Paul makes it crystal clear in his epistles, that no matter what our ministry is:
1. We must work to eat and owe no man anything

No, Paul never teaches that we should only work for the sake of claiming what we are owed (i.e. payment for our time). If we owe no man anything, then there is, by definition, no obligation. But, in the system you support, no one would work if they did not get paid. If you work, you are owed payment. That is how the world operates.

That is not how the Kingdom of Heaven operates. The "good" Samaritan did not help a complete stranger because he would receive compensation for it. The only money mentioned in the story was what the Samaritan would give; not what he would receive from his actions.

If all you can think of is money when you hear/read the word work then you are not seeing the Kingdom of Heaven.