God Owes You Nothing!

[Hopeful 2]

Once a person is saved are they always saved? Yes, when people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure.

A person will be saved, at the return of Christ; and they are raised from the dead to eternal life.
No thief, adulterer, murderer, or liar has a relationship with God.

Romans 8:30
"And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified."
Again, Paul tells us in easy to understand words, that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed—he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven= Positional Sanctification.

Those you say God has chosen, are not continuing in sin.
Those who commit sin, are the children of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

Think.......Believers are born again -regenerated- when they believe upon the Lord Jesus as the Christ in John 3:3; Titus 3:5.

They are made anew when they are "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life". (Rom 6:4)
That happens, when the obedient are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

That being the Biblical truth, then you you to lose your salvation, you would have to be un-regenerated.

That is correct.

Would you like to tell all of us exactly how that takes place?

How regeneration takes place ?
See above.

The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away.

Those who sin have not been reborn of God's seed, as God's seed cannot bring forth evil fruit.
It is written..."He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,..." (1 John 3:8-10)

 

[Hopeful 2]

NO!. No one is saved by believing that that are saved eternally. Where do you get these totally un-biblical ideas?

As only OSAS folks believe that they are guaranteed salvation, it is their doctrine from whence come 'my" ideas.

God save us because we believed in the Lord Jesus. That is the PROMISE of God my friend.

God said he would destroy those who commit sin.
Why don't they believe in that God ?
Salvation will be permanent, as it will be granted in the day of judgement.
To claim it now, is a gross error.

John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all. Hence, if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.

What you believe now, may change over time or under duress.
We have to believe for the rest of our lives, before the day of judgement declares our future.

Romans 8:38-39..........
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord".

Amen.
Now use that same verse, and sentiment, to say..."No lover of God commits sin".

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hence the need for a Saviour....because we can neither keep the Law nor want to obey God. Our sin nature fights us every day.

If one still has a sin nature, they have not been regenerated form God's seed.

NO> Salvation is a gift of God through faith by grace! Ephesians 2:8-9 must not be in yur Bible.

A gift allegedly received by the unworthy, will not come to fruition.

God bless you. The Scripture you just used in John writes in chapter 5 of his first letter to encourage believers by providing them assurance of their position in Christ—a position that is eternally secure. He explains that he has written to those who have believed in Jesus so that they may know (or understand with certainty) that they have (in the present tense) eternal life (1 John 5:13). John emphasizes in this context that there are “three that bear record in heaven” (1 John 5:7, KJV). That threefold testimony affirms that the believer in Jesus Christ indeed has eternal life.
Temptation will continue to exist and even mature believers will struggle with sin (Romans 7). However, actively pursuing sin as a continual practice is not the mark of someone who has been changed by Christ.

As long as they are actually "in Christ" they can walk with confidence of having a good day of judgement.
Nobody in Christ commits sin.

The reference to being "protected" or "kept safe" is challenging to interpret.
Some see "he who was born of God" in this verse as a reference to Jesus, but this is not a phrase used to describe Christ anywhere else by John. It has been interpreted to mean other believers, meaning other believers help protect a Christian through prayer and Satan cannot touch him (1 John 5:16–17). While both are possible, a more likely answer is that the phrase ought to be interpreted as "the one born of God keeps himself." In other words, just as John said in 1 John 3:9, walking closely with God means power against the temptation to sin.

I agree: so it is those who have not been born of God that are committing the sins.

 

[Hopeful 2]

If any OSAS people really believe that we can "do as they please for the rest of their lives," Hopeful 2, they don't understand OSAS at all. Or is that what you imagine they could say? If it is, then you misunderstand OSAS.

Jesus is clear in the Gospel of John that everyone who believes in him, he will resurrect him on the last day:
Jhn_6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Jhn_6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Jhn_6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Jhn_6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day" (ESV).

As you will notice, this passage also says that once we're saved, we will always be saved. This truth is enormously comforting for people who are going through suffering as believers.

However, if someone takes it as an excuse to live like a pagan unbeliever, he probably isn't a real believer, is misusing Scripture, and will have to answer to God for his sin.

OSAS is a moot point, as salvation won't be granted until the day of judgement.

 

[Free]

OSAS is a moot point, as salvation won't be granted until the day of judgement.

Those who will be saved on the day of judgement are saved already. This is the clear teaching of the NT:

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

You don't seem to understand the three ways that the NT speaks of salvation--justification (past event); sanctification (past event and ongoing present); glorification (future, when our bodies are changed).

 

[Hopeful 2]

Those who will be saved on the day of judgement are saved already.

I agree, in concept.
But many saying they have been saved will be shown to have been deceived.

This is the clear teaching of the NT:
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

You don't seem to understand the three ways that the NT speaks of salvation--justification (past event); sanctification (past event and ongoing present); glorification (future, when our bodies are changed).

What I understand, is that I was justified and sanctified at the application of Jesus' atoning, justifying, consecrating, sanctifying blood, (Heb 10:10,14); at my water baptism into His death, burial, and resurrection. (Rom 6:3-7)

 

[Free]

I agree, in concept.
But many saying they have been saved will be shown to have been deceived.

Yes, many are deceived into believing they are saved, but are not. That doesn't, however, mean those who will be saved on the day of judgement aren't saved now.

What I understand, is that I was justified and sanctified at the application of Jesus' atoning, justifying, consecrating, sanctifying blood, (Heb 10:10,14); at my water baptism into His death, burial, and resurrection. (Rom 6:3-7)

Not exactly. Justification, as given above and in several other places in the NT, is always said to be by or through faith--"by grace you have been saved through faith"--and never by or through water baptism. Sanctification comes through obedience to Christ and could be included in sanctification, but a person who is justified yet isn't baptized, such as with a "death bed repentance," is still saved.

 

[Rodger]

I do believe it, even though your interpreters added the word "practice".

Hence the need for rebirth, in order to be saved.
We no longer have to carry on like our first progenitor.
Our new Progenitor's seed doesn't carry a propensity for evil !

You infer a freedom from a penalty.
I state a freedom from the cause of penalties.

If one is OSAS, why resist ?

Once a person is saved are they always saved? Yes, when people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure.

 

[Rodger]

If one still has a sin nature, they have not been regenerated form God's seed.

A gift allegedly received by the unworthy, will not come to fruition.

As long as they are actually "in Christ" they can walk with confidence of having a good day of judgement.
Nobody in Christ commits sin.

I agree: so it is those who have not been born of God that are committing the sins.

Have you read James 3:2?
"For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body."

James is fully aware and is literally saying here that fallible human beings will never go without sinning.. James includes himself in this statement: "we all stumble in many ways". That should be encouraging. One struggle of the Christian life is our awareness of the many ways we continue to sin Knowing that James, like other New Testament authors, was not perfect should help put us at ease.

However, James also reveals that our goal is to stop sinning, and to be in full control of ourselves at all times. We're not there yet, especially when it comes to our words. The sign of a Christian who has arrived at full-faith perfection is one who never sins in what they say or how they say it or what they do.

That person does not exist!

1 John 3:4......
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

James 2:10.......
"Whoever keeps the whole law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

So then......Have you ever gone over the speed limit when driving?
OOOPs, You just broke the Law!
Remember, Every government is a minister of God.

Have you ever seen or looked at another human being with lust on your mind?
OOOPs....You just broke the Law!

Have you been feeling bad and when someone asks how you are feeling, and you say OK!
OOOPs....You just broke the Law!

Have you ever gossiped?
OOOPs.. you just broke the Law.

Have you ever fudged on your income taxes"
OOOPs...You just broke the Law!

Once, A Sunday School teacher had just finished teaching and wanted to make sure that she had made her point. She said, “Can anyone tell me what you must do before you can be forgiven of sin?” There was a short interval of silence and then from the back of the room, a small boy spoke up, “Sin,” he said.

 

[Rodger]

As only OSAS folks believe that they are guaranteed salvation, it is their doctrine from whence come 'my" ideas.

God said he would destroy those who commit sin.
Why don't they believe in that God ?
Salvation will be permanent, as it will be granted in the day of judgement.
To claim it now, is a gross error.

What you believe now, may change over time or under duress.
We have to believe for the rest of our lives, before the day of judgement declares our future.

Amen.
Now use that same verse, and sentiment, to say..."No lover of God commits sin".

No Sir. What you said is your delusion not mine. Right now you are living in fear of the Judgment day when in fact you are woefully uneducated Biblically in this topic.

I do not fear the Judgment day as I KNOW that all of my sins were paid for by Jesus. Therefore I can and will stand in front of the Father declared not guilty, justified.

The Great White Throne have no effect on me. I feel very sorry that you are living in such a condition as you are now.

 

[Rodger]

A person will be saved, at the return of Christ; and they are raised from the dead to eternal life.
No thief, adulterer, murderer, or liar has a relationship with God.

Those you say God has chosen, are not continuing in sin.
Those who commit sin, are the children of the devil. (1 John 3:8)

They are made anew when they are "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life". (Rom 6:4)
That happens, when the obedient are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

That is correct.

How regeneration takes place ?
See above.

Those who sin have not been reborn of God's seed, as God's seed cannot bring forth evil fruit.
It is written..."He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,..." (1 John 3:8-10)

All born again people who have died will be raised from the dead and the living will be glorified at the Rapture so in this comment you are correct.

All people sin. ALL Christians sin.
1 John 1:8-10........
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

Keeping the “works of the devil” statement in context, of 1 John 3:8, we must read what leads up to it: “Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work” (1 John 3:7–8). The apostle John is speaking of personal holiness. The child of God lives in righteousness. Those who live in unrepentant, continued sin show themselves to be children of the devil because they reflect the devil’s nature. The one who has Christ dwelling within him does not continue to sin because Christ came to destroy the works of the devil.

Regeneration = Another word for regeneration is rebirth, related to the biblical phrase “born again.” Our rebirth is distinguished from our first birth, when we were conceived physically and inherited our sin nature. The new birth is a spiritual, holy, and heavenly birth that results in our being made alive spiritually. Man in his natural state is “dead in trespasses and sins” until he is “made alive” (regenerated) by Christ. This happens when he places his faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:1).

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, many are deceived into believing they are saved, but are not. That doesn't, however, mean those who will be saved on the day of judgement aren't saved now.

If they remain faithful until the end, they will be saved.
When they look back on their lives, they will be able to say they were saved from such and such a date.
If they don't remain faithful to God and His Son, their salvation was self imposed.

Not exactly. Justification, as given above and in several other places in the NT, is always said to be by or through faith--"by grace you have been saved through faith"--and never by or through water baptism. Sanctification comes through obedience to Christ and could be included in sanctification, but a

Nothing happens without faith.
Repentance from sin without faith is a pipe dream.
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, justification, sanctification, consecration, the destruction of the old man, and rebirth, are a pipe dream without faith.
Enduring faithfully until the end, is impossible without faith.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Once a person is saved are they always saved? Yes, when people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure.

If that man turns back to sin, his salvation was forfeited.
His initial repentance from sin has been shown to be a lie to God, and we don't build any relationship with God that is based on lies.

 

[Free]

If that man turns back to sin, his salvation was forfeited.
His initial repentance from sin has been shown to be a lie to God, and we don't build any relationship with God that is based on lies.

Do you ever pray the Lord’s Prayer?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Have you read James 3:2?
"For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body."

James 3 is about contradictory teachings proceeding from the church.
Those producing "salt water" are the ones stumbling.
James show in James 3, how to determine whose teachings are really of God.

James is fully aware and is literally saying here that fallible human beings will never go without sinning.. James includes himself in this statement: "we all stumble in many ways". That should be encouraging. One struggle of the Christian life is our awareness of the many ways we continue to sin Knowing that James, like other New Testament authors, was not perfect should help put us at ease.

Thank God we can be more than fallible human beings after submitting to God and being reborn from His perfect seed !!!

However, James also reveals that our goal is to stop sinning, and to be in full control of ourselves at all times. We're not there yet, especially when it comes to our words. The sign of a Christian who has arrived at full-faith perfection is one who never sins in what they say or how they say it or what they do.

Wouldn't that be a stupid goal if it was unattainable ?
Why are some not there yet ?
Because too many so-called preachers keep making excuses for sin.

That person does not exist.
1 John 3:4......
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
James 2:10.......
"Whoever keeps the whole law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."
So then......Have you ever gone over the speed limit when driving?
OOOPs, You just broke the Law!
Remember, Every government is a minister of God.

Have you ever seen or looked at another human being with lust on your mind?
OOOPs....You just broke the Law!

Have you been feeling bad and when someone asks how you are feeling, and you say OK!
OOOPs....You just broke the Law!

Have you ever gossiped?
OOOPs.. you just broke the Law.

Have you ever fudged on your income taxes"
OOOPs...You just broke the Law!

Once, A Sunday School teacher had just finished teaching and wanted to make sure that she had made her point. She said, “Can anyone tell me what you must do before you can be forgiven of sin?” There was a short interval of silence and then from the back of the room, a small boy spoke up, “Sin,” he said.

See what I mean be excuses for sin ?
It is written..."Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled." (Titus 1:15)

 

[Hopeful 2]

No Sir. What you said is your delusion not mine. Right now you are living in fear of the Judgment day when in fact you are woefully uneducated Biblically in this topic.

I do not fear the Judgment day as I KNOW that all of my sins were paid for by Jesus. Therefore I can and will stand in front of the Father declared not guilty, justified.

The Great White Throne have no effect on me. I feel very sorry that you are living in such a condition as you are now.

It is written..."Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:22-23)
Those that commit sin were never known by Jesus, much less saved by Him.

 

[Hopeful 2]

All born again people who have died will be raised from the dead and the living will be glorified at the Rapture so in this comment you are correct.

While I don't capitalize the word "rapture"...(the end of the earth and of the resurrection of the dead to life or death)...I agree with the sentiment concerning those who were really reborn of God's seed.

All people sin. ALL Christians sin.
1 John 1:8-10........
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

1 John 1:6, 8, and 10, address those who walk in darkness, which Pro 4:19 says is the "way of the wicked".
It doesn't apply to those who walk in God.
1 John 1:5, 7, and 9, apply to those who are, or are about to, walk in the light.
God is that light, and in God is no darkness-sin.

Keeping the “works of the devil” statement in context, of 1 John 3:8, we must read what leads up to it: “Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.

But non-existent...according to you ?

The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work” (1 John 3:7–8). The apostle John is speaking of personal holiness. The child of God lives in righteousness.

But you keep saying there are none like that !
I really hope you are showing a change of heart.

Those who live in unrepentant, continued sin show themselves to be children of the devil because they reflect the devil’s nature. The one who has Christ dwelling within him does not continue to sin because Christ came to destroy the works of the devil.

That is right !
Welcome to the light, in which is no darkness !

Regeneration = Another word for regeneration is rebirth, related to the biblical phrase “born again.” Our rebirth is distinguished from our first birth, when we were conceived physically and inherited our sin nature. The new birth is a spiritual, holy, and heavenly birth that results in our being made alive spiritually. Man in his natural state is “dead in trespasses and sins” until he is “made alive” (regenerated) by Christ. This happens when he places his faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:1).

Are you really interested in proceeding down this road ?
I would be happy to guide your steps into righteousness.
PM me, and I will give you my phone number !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Do you ever pray the Lord’s Prayer?

No, as Jesus' prayer to His Father has been answered.
I do start my prayers the same way Jesus did, thanking God in the name of Jesus Christ.
But His kingdom has come, His will is being done on earth as it is in heaven, He has provided all our foods, and He has forgiven our past sins. (If we have repented and been baptized in His name for the remission of past sins).
And He never leads anyone into temptation !
In fact it is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)

I do continue to ask Him to keep delivering me from evil.

 

[Free]

No, as Jesus' prayer to His Father has been answered.

It wasn’t Jesus’s prayer to the Father. He was telling the disciples how to pray, since they asked.

I do start my prayers the same way Jesus did, thanking God in the name of Jesus Christ.
But His kingdom has come, His will is being done on earth as it is in heaven, He has provided all our foods, and He has forgiven our past sins. (If we have repented and been baptized in His name for the remission of past sins).
And He never leads anyone into temptation !
In fact it is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)

I do continue to ask Him to keep delivering me from evil.

It seems you don’t actually believe the Lord’s Prayer. You want to even change that to fit your heresy.

 

[Hopeful 2]

It wasn’t Jesus’s prayer to the Father. He was telling the disciples how to pray, since they asked.

I hope they followed His instructions, until they were fulfilled.

It seems you don’t actually believe the Lord’s Prayer. You want to even change that to fit your heresy.

I believe it was a valid prayer, before the time it was fulfilled.
Has His kingdom come ?
Why pray for it to happen again ?

Is His will being done on earth and as it is in heaven ?
Why pray for something that is ongoing ?

Hasn't God been providing your meals?
I suppose you could pray that He continues to do so.

Weren't our past sins forgiven at the washing away of them by the blood of Christ ?
Why pray for something that was done already ?

Does God ever lead anyone into temptation ?
God provides the escapes from temptation and deliverance from evil !

As for the doctrine which is according to godliness, (1 Tim 6:3), being a heresy, I think any doctrine that says that Christ's work on earth was insufficient to free us from sin, is a heresy.