God Owes You Nothing!

[Bruce.Leiter]

The OSAS doctrine is the epitome of being "owed" something.

Why, Hopeful 2, do you say that? Once Saved Always Saved believes that God's grace that saves us without our earning it will always be with us, and the teaching is very comforting. We aren't owed anything at all in believing what God's Word, especially in John's gospel, says.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I do not believe that forced conversions are real conversions.
Men don't go from heaven to hell.
They go from earth to heaven OR hell, depending on how they lived.
Has your forced conversion allowed you to live without sinning ?
Wouldn't that be the proof that it was God's work ?
God's seed does not bear liars, thieves, or adulterers.

How do you define "sinning" Hopeful 2?

 

[Rodger]

God is sovereign, but men have the choice of obeying or disobeying Him.
As God has always known who would love, or hate Him, He has no need to force anyone to do against their will.
If He knows that the Cardinals will win the world series this year, He doesn't need to "make it happen".

My friend, God has never forced any man to obey him or to love Him.

"IF" God made man love Him, then it would not be love at all, but fear and fear does not last.

 

[Rodger]

I do not believe that forced conversions are real conversions.
Men don't go from heaven to hell.
They go from earth to heaven OR hell, depending on how they lived.
Has your forced conversion allowed you to live without sinning ?
Wouldn't that be the proof that it was God's work ?
God's seed does not bear liars, thieves, or adulterers.

My dear friend, I have no idea what your Christian education was or is, but may I say with all due respect, you need some help!

For example, You said........
"I do not believe that forced conversations are real conversation".

That makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever. Are you going to try and tell me that the conversations I had with my children when they did something wrong were not real conversations? THINK about what you are saying!
When the police officer is giving you a speeding ticket and telling you why, are you saying that is not a real conversation? That is ridiculous.

Then you said.........
"Men don't go from heaven to hell."
I have no response to such a statement. Who in world thinks that way?

You said.......
"They go from earth to heaven OR hell, depending on how they lived."
Almost right on one. All humans die, and go to heaven or hell depending on who they say Jesus Christ is! How they lived has nothing to do with where a man spends eternity!

You said.......
"Has your forced conversion allowed you to live without sinning ?"
Now you are switching to "CONVERSION". That makes more sense than "CONVERSATION"!
Forced conversion is prominent in some religions, cults, and totalitarian governments, but it’s easy to address from a Christian point of view. Those who are forced into a different religion may act like a convert outwardly but secretly remain loyal to their former religion and as soon as opportunity presents itself, they revert. Christianity can only come from love! Anything less or other than Love will not last.

You said..........
"God's seed does not bear liars, thieves, or adulterers."
What differentiates a Christian’s life from that of a non-Christian is the struggle against sin and the ability to overcome it. A true Christian will always repent, will always eventually return to God, and will always resume the struggle against sin. But the Bible gives no support for the idea that a person who perpetually and unrepentantly engages in sin can indeed be a Christian. The 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 passage lists sins that, if indulged in continuously, identify a person as not being redeemed by Christ.
Your comment comes from your false understanding that Christians do not commit sin.
Although we truly have been made new in our spirit, we continue to live in a fallen world and have a disposition toward sin. What we must understand is that our redemption, which began at salvation, will not be completed until Jesus returns and transforms these sinful bodies to be glorious like His own. (Philippians 3:20-21).

At our conversion, we were set free from the penalty of sin, through justification. Now, through sanctification, we are being progressively delivered from the power of sin. But only when we are glorified will we be free from the presence of sin forever.

 

[Rodger]

If it wasn't for God's mercy and grace none of us would be here. It's sad to think in Noah's day that he was the only one who found favor in the Lord. What God looks for is His righteousness found in us and that He already gave warning to those things within this world that will confuse and confound those who lack Spiritual knowledge. Quit being a Pastor follower and get into the word for yourself by allowing the Holy Spirit teach you.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Amen!

You used the phrase......"Pastor Follower". I like that more than denominational false teachers.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Why, Hopeful 2, do you say that? Once Saved Always Saved believes that God's grace that saves us without our earning it will always be with us, and the teaching is very comforting. We aren't owed anything at all in believing what God's Word, especially in John's gospel, says.

So IF you believe that doctrine, God MUST save you.
Right ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

How do you define "sinning" Hopeful 2?

I use John's definition from 1 John 5:17..."All unrighteousness is sin:..."

 

[Hopeful 2]

My friend, God has never forced any man to obey him or to love Him.

That is what I just said.

"IF" God made man love Him, then it would not be love at all, but fear and fear does not last.

I agree.
To continue on that line of thought then, OSAS folks don't even need to love God to be saved.
Just believe what I consider a false doctrine, and do as they please for the rest of their lives!
Sounds devilish to me.

 

[Rodger]

That is what I just said.

I agree.
To continue on that line of thought then, OSAS folks don't even need to love God to be saved.
Just believe what I consider a false doctrine, and do as they please for the rest of their lives!
Sounds devilish to me.

Actually, what you believe sounds depressing to me.

My dear friend, ultimately, the message of the Bible is clear: salvation is a divine gift of grace, received through faith, and evidenced by a life of love and service.

OSAS people are the same as those who believe that they need to get saved every other day.

My brother, I know you can not see this at this time of your life, however.....how you believe about OSAS could lead to negligence in your relationship with God and, over time, a searing of your conscience, leading to a probable “apostasy”.

1 John 5:13........
“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

 

[Rodger]

So IF you believe that doctrine, God MUST save you.
Right ?

May I ask you a very simple question.......where in the world do you get these heretical positions.
Now, again...with all Christian love and respect, if you would spend the time you are here on this site, in Bible study you will not have such heresy's come to your mind. You have a habit of asking preposterous questions. Here is one for you...........

When you put down a downpayment on a home and your credit does not allow you the loan......
Do you get your downpayment back? NO SIR YOU DO NOT!

Now then, Can God lose His own Holy Spirit?

 

[Christ_empowered]

This is a refreshing conversation. God has seen fit to bless me in my lifetime here on earth. This happens for some believers. And…

I had a long distance Christian friend who almost seemed to feel threatened by His work in my life. I never claimed to be special or better or that blessings indicated a more truly Christian state or…anything…

I came to my senses 12 years ago and I desperately needed divine intervention to live much longer and to stay out of an institution if I was to live. God has made things happen for me and I’m thankful. What got to me…and still does…

Is that some churches ️ seem to equate answered prayers with godliness. I don’t think that’s a valid outlook from a biblical perspective. And…

As I’ve taken to reminding myself that God owes no one anything it makes His work in this world more awe inspiring to me, somehow.

Thanks

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

My dear friend, I have no idea what your Christian education was or is, but may I say with all due respect, you need some help!

For example, You said........
"I do not believe that forced conversations are real conversation".

That makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever. Are you going to try and tell me that the conversations I had with my children when they did something wrong were not real conversations? THINK about what you are saying!
When the police officer is giving you a speeding ticket and telling you why, are you saying that is not a real conversation? That is ridiculous.

Then you said.........
"Men don't go from heaven to hell."
I have no response to such a statement. Who in world thinks that way?

You said.......
"They go from earth to heaven OR hell, depending on how they lived."
Almost right on one. All humans die, and go to heaven or hell depending on who they say Jesus Christ is! How they lived has nothing to do with where a man spends eternity!

You said.......
"Has your forced conversion allowed you to live without sinning ?"
Now you are switching to "CONVERSION". That makes more sense than "CONVERSATION"!
Forced conversion is prominent in some religions, cults, and totalitarian governments, but it’s easy to address from a Christian point of view. Those who are forced into a different religion may act like a convert outwardly but secretly remain loyal to their former religion and as soon as opportunity presents itself, they revert. Christianity can only come from love! Anything less or other than Love will not last.

You said..........
"God's seed does not bear liars, thieves, or adulterers."
What differentiates a Christian’s life from that of a non-Christian is the struggle against sin and the ability to overcome it. A true Christian will always repent, will always eventually return to God, and will always resume the struggle against sin. But the Bible gives no support for the idea that a person who perpetually and unrepentantly engages in sin can indeed be a Christian. The 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 passage lists sins that, if indulged in continuously, identify a person as not being redeemed by Christ.
Your comment comes from your false understanding that Christians do not commit sin.
Although we truly have been made new in our spirit, we continue to live in a fallen world and have a disposition toward sin. What we must understand is that our redemption, which began at salvation, will not be completed until Jesus returns and transforms these sinful bodies to be glorious like His own. (Philippians 3:20-21).

At our conversion, we were set free from the penalty of sin, through justification. Now, through sanctification, we are being progressively delivered from the power of sin. But only when we are glorified will we be free from the presence of sin forever.

Amen, Rodger!

 

[Rodger]

I use John's definition from 1 John 5:17..."All unrighteousness is sin:..."

Why do you not believe 1 John 3:4"

"Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness, sin is lawlesness"​

Through Adam, the inherent inclination to sin entered the human race, and human beings became sinners by nature. When Adam sinned, his inner nature was transformed by his sin of rebellion, bringing to him spiritual death and depravity that would be passed on to all who came after him. We are sinners because we sin and we sin because we are sinners. This passed-on depravity is known as inherited sin.

Sin is personal sin, that which is committed every day by every human being. Because we have inherited a sin nature from Adam, we commit individual, personal sins, everything from seemingly innocent untruths to murder. Those who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ must pay the penalty for these personal sins, as well as inherited and imputed sin. However, believers have been freed from the eternal penalty of sin—hell and spiritual death. We now also have the power to resist sinning. Now we can choose whether or not to commit personal sins because we have the power of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Actually, what you believe sounds depressing to me.

Most of humanity finds the idea of perfectly obeying God depressing.

My dear friend, ultimately, the message of the Bible is clear: salvation is a divine gift of grace, received through faith, and evidenced by a life of love and service.

I agree.
And that gift has requirements on our part.

OSAS people are the same as those who believe that they need to get saved every other day.

As salvation will be a once and only event, I can't see their POV.
Man will be "saved", or destroyed, on the day of judgement.

My brother, I know you can not see this at this time of your life, however.....how you believe about OSAS could lead to negligence in your relationship with God and, over time, a searing of your conscience, leading to a probable “apostasy”.

Not in my relationship, but in the relationships of those who think their salvation is secure without any effort on their part.
Neglecting their Name sake is of no consequence to them.

1 John 5:13........
“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

1 John 5:18..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
Those with eternal life are those who don't commit sin.

 

[Hopeful 2]

May I ask you a very simple question.......where in the world do you get these heretical positions.

Wasn't my question valid ?
If one believes the doctrine of OSAS, God must save you...according to those believers. Right ?

Now, again...with all Christian love and respect, if you would spend the time you are here on this site, in Bible study you will not have such heresy's come to your mind.

What heresy ?

You have a habit of asking preposterous questions. Here is one for you...........
When you put down a downpayment on a home and your credit does not allow you the loan......
Do you get your downpayment back? NO SIR YOU DO NOT!

Nobody puts a down payment on something they can't get credit for.
If someone did, I would imagine their payment was forfeited.

Now then, Can God lose His own Holy Spirit?

God is the Holy Spirit.
He can't lose Himself.
He can, however, take His down payment back; as it was contingent on continued belief and righteousness.
Heb. 10:39..."But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."
My turn...
Will God abide in a polluted temple ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Why do you not believe 1 John 3:4"

"Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness, sin is lawlesness"​

I do believe it, even though your interpreters added the word "practice".

Through Adam, the inherent inclination to sin entered the human race, and human beings became sinners by nature. When Adam sinned, his inner nature was transformed by his sin of rebellion, bringing to him spiritual death and depravity that would be passed on to all who came after him. We are sinners because we sin and we sin because we are sinners. This passed-on depravity is known as inherited sin.

Hence the need for rebirth, in order to be saved.
We no longer have to carry on like our first progenitor.
Our new Progenitor's seed doesn't carry a propensity for evil !

Sin is personal sin, that which is committed every day by every human being. Because we have inherited a sin nature from Adam, we commit individual, personal sins, everything from seemingly innocent untruths to murder. Those who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ must pay the penalty for these personal sins, as well as inherited and imputed sin. However, believers have been freed from the eternal penalty of sin—hell and spiritual death.

You infer a freedom from a penalty.
I state a freedom from the cause of penalties.

We now also have the power to resist sinning. Now we can choose whether or not to commit personal sins because we have the power of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

If one is OSAS, why resist ?

 

[Rodger]

I do believe it, even though your interpreters added the word "practice".

Hence the need for rebirth, in order to be saved.
We no longer have to carry on like our first progenitor.
Our new Progenitor's seed doesn't carry a propensity for evil !

You infer a freedom from a penalty.
I state a freedom from the cause of penalties.

If one is OSAS, why resist ?

Once a person is saved are they always saved? Yes, when people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure.

Romans 8:30
"And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified."

Again, Paul tells us in easy to understand words, that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed—he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven= Positional Sanctification.

Think.......Believers are born again -regenerated- when they believe upon the Lord Jesus as the Christ in John 3:3; Titus 3:5.

That being the Biblical truth, then you you to lose your salvation, you would have to be un-regenerated. Would you like to tell all of us exactly how that takes place?
The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away.

 

[Rodger]

Wasn't my question valid ?
If one believes the doctrine of OSAS, God must save you...according to those believers. Right ?

What heresy ?

Nobody puts a down payment on something they can't get credit for.
If someone did, I would imagine their payment was forfeited.

God is the Holy Spirit.
He can't lose Himself.
He can, however, take His down payment back; as it was contingent on continued belief and righteousness.
Heb. 10:39..."But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."
My turn...
Will God abide in a polluted temple ?

NO!. No one is saved by believing that that are saved eternally. Where do you get these totally un-biblical ideas?

God save us because we believed in the Lord Jesus. That is the PROMISE of God my friend.

John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all. Hence, if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.


Romans 8:38-39..........
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord".

 

[Rodger]

Most of humanity finds the idea of perfectly obeying God depressing.

I agree.
And that gift has requirements on our part.

As salvation will be a once and only event, I can't see their POV.
Man will be "saved", or destroyed, on the day of judgement.

Not in my relationship, but in the relationships of those who think their salvation is secure without any effort on their part.
Neglecting their Name sake is of no consequence to them.

1 John 5:18..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
Those with eternal life are those who don't commit sin.

Hence the need for a Saviour....because we can neither keep the Law nor want to obey God. Our sin nature fights us every day.

NO> Salvation is a gift of God through faith by grace! Ephesians 2:8-9 must not be in yur Bible.

God bless you. The Scripture you just used in John writes in chapter 5 of his first letter to encourage believers by providing them assurance of their position in Christ—a position that is eternally secure. He explains that he has written to those who have believed in Jesus so that they may know (or understand with certainty) that they have (in the present tense) eternal life (1 John 5:13). John emphasizes in this context that there are “three that bear record in heaven” (1 John 5:7, KJV). That threefold testimony affirms that the believer in Jesus Christ indeed has eternal life.
Temptation will continue to exist and even mature believers will struggle with sin (Romans 7). However, actively pursuing sin as a continual practice is not the mark of someone who has been changed by Christ.

The reference to being "protected" or "kept safe" is challenging to interpret.

Some see "he who was born of God" in this verse as a reference to Jesus, but this is not a phrase used to describe Christ anywhere else by John. It has been interpreted to mean other believers, meaning other believers help protect a Christian through prayer and Satan cannot touch him (1 John 5:16–17). While both are possible, a more likely answer is that the phrase ought to be interpreted as "the one born of God keeps himself." In other words, just as John said in 1 John 3:9, walking closely with God means power against the temptation to sin.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

That is what I just said.

I agree.
To continue on that line of thought then, OSAS folks don't even need to love God to be saved.
Just believe what I consider a false doctrine, and do as they please for the rest of their lives!
Sounds devilish to me.

If any OSAS people really believe that we can "do as they please for the rest of their lives," Hopeful 2, they don't understand OSAS at all. Or is that what you imagine they could say? If it is, then you misunderstand OSAS.

Jesus is clear in the Gospel of John that everyone who believes in him, he will resurrect him on the last day:
Jhn_6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Jhn_6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Jhn_6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Jhn_6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day" (ESV).

As you will notice, this passage also says that once we're saved, we will always be saved. This truth is enormously comforting for people who are going through suffering as believers.

However, if someone takes it as an excuse to live like a pagan unbeliever, he probably isn't a real believer, is misusing Scripture, and will have to answer to God for his sin.