There was only one version of John 1:1 listed and it doesn’t support your claim. So, again, which Trinitarians?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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God The Father God The Son
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It demonstrable that the Holy Spirit is sometimes an anointing and sometimes just another name for God. God the Father, who is holy and is Spirit is therefore Holy Spirit. It isn't a reference to another person. Our spirit is not a different person in relation to ourselves nor is God's Spirit a different person.
On the other hand, sometimes the Holy Spirit is an anointing such as is the case in Acts 10:39, where Jesus was anointed with God's Holy Spirit at John's water baptism of repentance.
There are many examples of "the spirit of X thing..." in the Bible. It is often used in reference to an anointing, i.e., the gift of God's nature, not literally God giving Himself as a gift. Acts 1:4-8, Acts 2:17,18, etc.
How is it demonstrable?
It doesn’t follow that because the Father is holy and spirit that he is the Holy Spirit. Being holy and being spirit are two of his attributes.
Notice what Jesus says:
Jhn 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
…
Jhn 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (ESV)
This shows that the Holy Spirit is neither the Son nor the Father, and that the Son isn’t the Father. All three are here made and kept clearly distinct from each other.
In case there is any doubt about the Father not being the Holy Spirit:
Jhn 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. (ESV)
2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. (ESV)
1Th 4:8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you. (ESV)
The overall biblical witness is that the Holy Spirit is not the Father.
We aren’t Gods either, so that’s a false analogy.
The Holy Spirit anoints but cannot be said to be an anointing.
Such as?
It seems that you’re still just begging the question. Continually throughout the NT, the Holy Spirit is mentioned as distinct from both the Father and the Son. The three are often mentioned together, such as at Jesus’s baptism and in the so-called Great Commission. It makes no sense whatsoever that the NT is consistent in separating the Father and the Holy Spirit if they are one and the same. Even one mention of the Holy Spirit would be pointless.
I quoted some verses and some basic reasoning.
God is holy and Spirit and it doesn't follow He is Holy Spirit? Why do you say that?
That's reference to the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 1.
It refers to an anointing called the Spirit of Truth. The Spirit of Truth isn't a 4th member of the Trinity, distinct from the others. It's about God doing the guding with His anointing.
John 16
13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
That's an anointing again. There is no reference to people praying to the Holy Spirit or the Holy Spirit talking in the Bible.
The Father isn't Holy and Spirit? Jesus said otherwise.
On the other hand, you are almost there. Why can't the holy spirit sometimes be an anointing?
It's a perfect analogy because we're made in God's image.
The Bible says it is.
Too many to list, but there is a spirit of truth, a spirit of Christ, a spirit of wisdom, a holy spirit, etc...
In Matthew 11:27 Jesus said that only the Father truly knows the Son, and vice versa, saying, "...no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son...." If the Trinity were accurate, suggesting that the Holy Spirit is a distinct "Person" within the Godhead, then the Holy Spirit would also have knowledge of both the Father and the Son. This would contradict Jesus' statement.
Redneck version:
There are two holy spirits related to the Godhead. (IMHO)
The Father
The Son
The Holy Spirit
So where does the other holy spirit come from?
The Word of God became flesh (Jesus).
The second Adam (Jesus) became a quickening spirit / Life Giving Spirit.
Revelation 3:20 kjv
20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
I absolutely do not totally understand how to present Christ in us (other than by what the 2nd Adam did/became).
The first Adam was a living Soul.
The second Adam became a Life Giving Spirit.
I can give more scriptures, if anyone is interested. A simple search can allow anyone to find those scriptures.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
There are two holy spirits related to the Godhead. (IMHO)
The Father
The Son
The Holy Spirit
So where does the other holy spirit come from?
The Word of God became flesh (Jesus).
The second Adam (Jesus) became a quickening spirit / Life Giving Spirit.
Revelation 3:20 kjv
20. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
I absolutely do not totally understand how to present Christ in us (other than by what the 2nd Adam did/became).
The first Adam was a living Soul.
The second Adam became a Life Giving Spirit.
I can give more scriptures, if anyone is interested. A simple search can allow anyone to find those scriptures.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
tigger 2
Member
......................................
I'm sorry, I don't understand your question. The Greek clearly shows that theos (the predicate noun) comes before the verb "was" (HN or En). This is exactly what we have in the nearly 20 proper examples I've given.
That would be primarily a Trinitarian position, but it's not the Bible's position.
"... if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. ..."
Rom. 8:9
"... if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you."
Rom. 8:11
Also, the John 14:21-23 verse I posted to you before supports the concept of the Father being the Holy Spirit as He cannot live with us unless He is a Spirit. (John 4:24)
Yes, and I quoted some verses and showed that your reasoning is not sound.
For the reasons I gave:
1. The Father and the Holy Spirit are consistently and continually differentiated one from the other throughout the whole NT. That is pointless if they are one and the same. All three persons, and even just the Father and Holy Spirit, are often mentioned together, which is redundant if the Father is the Holy Spirit.
2. Jesus says that the Father will send the Holy Spirit, not that the Father will himself come. The language clearly makes a distinction between the Father and the Holy Spirit.
But also,
3. The Holy Spirit is also called "the Spirit of Christ" (Rom 8:9; 1Pet 1:11), "the Spirit of his Son" (Gal 4:6), and "the Spirit of Jesus Christ" (Phil 1:19). This shows both the nearness and intimacy of the three persons and that the Holy Spirit cannot be the Father.
Yes, but the language clearly speaks of the Holy Spirit, not the Father; the Father sends the Holy Spirit, just as he sent his Son.
The Spirit of truth is just another name for the Holy Spirit; he has several names.
Then perhaps you are not as well studied as you think. Do people pray to the Holy Spirit? No. Jesus said to pray to the Father in his name. The Holy Spirit has a different role than both Jesus and the Father, and he never brings glory to himself; he always points to Christ.
You say there is "no reference to . . . the Holy Spirit talking in the Bible." Have you not read:
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Joh 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. (ESV)
Act 1:16 “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. (ESV)
Act 10:19 And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. (ESV)
Act 11:12 And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction. These six brothers also accompanied me, and we entered the man's house. (ESV)
Act 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” (ESV)
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, (ESV)
Heb 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, “Today, if you hear his voice, (ESV)
The Holy Spirit:
Acts: Matt 4:1; Acts 8:39, 16:7
Listens: John 16:13
Speaks: John 16:13-15; Acts 1:16, 10:19, 11:12, 11:28, 13:2, 15:28; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7
Can be lied to: Acts 5:3, which is the same as lying to God (5:9)
Bears witness: Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 John 5:6
Helps, intercedes, and searches: John 14:16, 15:26, 16:7; Rom 8:26-27; 1 Cor 2:10
Teaches: Luke 12:12; John 16:13; 1 Cor 2:13
Gives gifts: Acts 20:28; 1 Cor 12:11; Heb 2:4
Leads: John 16:13; Gal 5:18, Heb 9:8
Can be grieved: Eph 4:30
Can be outraged: Heb 10:29
Can be blasphemed: Matt 12:31-32
Convicts: John 16:8-11
These are all actions of personal agency. And on it goes.
That very clearly was not what I said.
What do you even mean by "an anointing"? Let's start there.
Using your reasoning, then, God also has a physical body.
Where?
Now that I know what you mean, yes, I agree. Why would the Holy Spirit be called "the Spirit of Christ" if he really was the Father?
Of course the Holy Spirit would have the same knowledge. And, no, that doesn't contradict Jesus's statement.
You first stated: "First, as trinitarian grammarians will tell you, John 1:1c (Lit. "and theos was the word") has the predicate noun theos coming before its verb. In fact, this is what trinitarians have falsely used to pretend that the predicate noun has "the" understood."
I replied: "Which Trinitarians?"
You responded with your link, but your link only has one version of the entirety of John 1, nothing more. So, I don't know your what link is supposed to show, since it doesn't have anything to do with what I had asked.
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What's interesting is that you skipped what was plainly stated in the rest of verse 9:
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. (ESV)
Paul is clearly equating "the Spirit of God" with "the Spirit of Christ."
More than that, what you posted proves the Trinitarian position to be the biblical position. "The Spirit of God;" "the Spirit of Him;" "by His Spirit." First, it makes no sense if the Holy Spirit is the Father that Paul should even mention the Holy Spirit, and all the names used of him, at all. Second, that is language of distinction.
That's just begging the question though. The Father is spirit and the Holy Spirit is also, obviously, spirit. It doesn't follow that because they are both spirit that they are one and the same person; they are, however, the same substance. The Son clearly was spirit before the incarnation, but he is clearly distinct from the Father.
If the Holy Spirit is another person then saying "no one" knows the Son except the Father and vice versa would exclude the Holy Spirit from being someone who knows the Father or Son. Sorry, but that's exactly what Jesus said. Think about it.
Matt 11
27All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.
Well yes, because Christ is God.
How do you interpret John 4:24? If God is a Spirit, which of the 3 is that verse talking about? And if that verse says "Him", that can't be talking about all 3 persons so which one is it talking about?
I've never cherry-picked from Romans 8:9-11. I believe that entire passage supports my position. It interchangeably refers to Christ and the Father as the Spirit - just the same way Jesus refers to Himself in John 14:21-23. How else can the Father come to live with us unless He is Spirit?
tigger 2
Member
I guess you are saying that you are ignorant of Colwell's Rule which so many trinitarians jumped on from 1933 onward to 'prove' the grammar of John 1:1c as telling us the word was (the) god. It is still used by some today, but another 'rule' was made up in 1973 by Harner which tells us that such word orders (Colwell constructions) make the predicate noun "qualitative." Both 'rules' are disproved by the list I have given you.
I know you won't read the studies I have done, so there's no reason for you ask me anything else about John 1:1c.
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2011/11/colwells-jbl-article-definite-rule-for.html
Colwells-Rule-and-John-1_1-1.pdf (journaloftheology.org)
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/10/harners-jbl-article-on-qualitative.html
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And that is what I asked for: which Trinitarians? Who, exactly?
You didn’t give me a list. You gave me a translation of John 1:1. At this point, rules are irrelevant since God himself says there never has been nor will be another God or god. So, “a god” is precluded; it’s over before it can begin.
A qualitative understanding—the Word is in nature God—is the only legitimate understanding. That is supported by the context of what is said prior in John 1:1, as well as v. 2, which repeats more succinctly what was stated in verse 1, and v. 3, which supports what both previous verses stated.
It’s best if you just post the relevant bits here. I don’t have the time to read through everything.
Exactly, but he isn’t the Father either. Remember, your point was that the Father is the Holy Spirit, and my point, by showing that the Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ, is that that cannot be the case. If Jesus isn’t the Father and the Holy Spirit is called (among other things) both the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God, it follows that the Father cannot be the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit must be distinct from both.
As I stated, that the Holy Spirit is referred to as both shows the union and intimate relationship that exists between the three consubstantial persons.
When the NT refers to God, it can mean the Father, such as in John 4:24, but it can just generally mean God, with no reference to specific persons.
The singular “he” and “him” very often refer to the Trinity; God is one being.
I don’t know what you think Jesus is saying in John 14:21-23. First, Jesus is not the Father. Just so we’re clear. Second, neither Jesus nor the Father are ever referred to as the Spirit.
I don’t understand what your point is. Of course the Father is spirit, I’ve never stated otherwise. And, it’s “spirit,” not “Spirit.” The former is a statement about his incorporeal nature; the latter is the Holy Spirit.
Yes, I know what Jesus said, but what he said doesn’t preclude the Holy Spirit, unless you want to believe that the inspired Scriptures contradicts itself:
1Co 2:10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
1Co 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. (ESV).
What you’re missing, I think, is that Jesus came to do the work of the Father and reveal him. This is why he talks much about the Father and his relationship with him. The Father, to the Jews, is Yahweh. That is why Jesus is very careful about his identity as God; he is promoting monotheism and avoiding confusion. The Jews do, however, try to stone Jesus at least twice for claiming to be God or equal to God.
In reality, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are Yahweh.
I am glad you quoted 1 Corinthians 2:10,11 because it's clear that the spirit of a person is not a second person. You being two or more persons in one being is not a Biblical doctrine. So my point still stands.
I don't agree with that theory.
When they falsely accused him, he denied being God.
Only the Father is YHWH. He calls Himself the only God and so does Jesus.
Isaiah 64
8But now, O LORD, You are our Father;
we are the clay, and You are the potter;
we are all the work of Your hand.
Again, we’re not God, so that is a false analogy. The Holy Spirit is continuously and consistently kept distinct from the Father, which is pointless if the the Gather is the Holy Spirit.
Why not?
Where? Even Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his God and Jesus never denied it.
To say the at only the Father is Yahweh is fallaciously begging the question. You’re also conflating the use of Father in Isaiah 64 with the self-existent nature of God. God is said to be the Father of Israel, but that is speaking relationally of his creating them, protecting them, providing for them, loving them, etc. Notice that “You are our Father” is then explained or expanded upon with “we are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of Your hand.”
But that says nothing ontological about God. He has always existed as three coequal, consubstantial persons, one of whom is called Father.
The following is the imagery we have from our physical creation.
This may just be body soul ( because the body soul spirit may begin at Pentecost).
Ultimately we are body soul and spirit when we are born again.
Modern medicine can tell if brain dead.
Acts 20:9 kjv
9. And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
10. And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
11. When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
Made in the image of God. Physical imagery that can contain the spiritul at the new birth.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
This may just be body soul ( because the body soul spirit may begin at Pentecost).
Ultimately we are body soul and spirit when we are born again.
Modern medicine can tell if brain dead.
Acts 20:9 kjv
9. And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
10. And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
11. When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.
Made in the image of God. Physical imagery that can contain the spiritul at the new birth.
Mississippi redneck
eddif