God ~ The Holy Spirit

[Gabbylittleangel]

In trying to explain a God who is so far beyond our understanding, we often use analogies. Christ used them in parables about the kingdom. Many theologians use them in their attempts to bring understanding to doctrines.
In trying to comprehend The Holy Trinity or if you prefer, the relationship between The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit, we often use analogies to describe our doctrines.

I have often used the example of water, ice, and steam. The same thing, in different forms, with different functions. Some have understood this, and others reject it.

I have been praying for the Lord to give me something else that will help others reach an understanding of how God can be all in all ~ Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This morning He brought back to mind an old, often used analogy.

A flame. Picture a blaze, perhaps a large bonfire. If one were to take a torch, put the end of the torch into the blaze, and walk away with it, they would have the flame with them. Yet nothing of the original fire has gone. The original fire is no less, no smaller. The torch is now taken into a dark place, and it bears witness of the flame. If you have seen this flame, you have seen the fire.

Now, with this torch, we light your candle. There is no less fire simply because you have taken some. The flame on your candle can now be used to light up your world. Your candle can be used to light the candles of others.

There is a song, that describes this process.
"Go Light Your World"

http://www.walkthroughlife.com/midis/ch ... olight.htm

 

[mutzrein]

Gabby - ah . . . analogy. A great place to start!

Consider this. I (Ed) am body soul and spirit. A trinity if you like.

So, when speaking of my spirit, you could say, ‘this is the spirit of Ed.’ Similarly, you can speak of my soul and my body. So, these three, together, make Ed.
Now, would it be right to take just one of these components and say, ‘this is Ed’. So when speaking of my spirit should you say, ‘this IS Ed’ or should you say, ‘this is the spirit OF Ed.’

And in like manner, what should we say of the spirit of God? Is it right to say, ‘the spirit IS God’, perhaps ‘God the Spirit’ or should we say, ‘the spirit OF God.’?

And this is where this analogy takes on a beautiful dimension.

Although my spirit is not me, it actually does represent me because it reflects who I am. And this is why, when speaking of my spirit, it is referred to in first person.
When my spirit is grieved. I am grieved.
When my spirit is joyful. I am joyful.
When my spirit is lied to. I am lied to.

Your thoughts so far?

 

[DM]

The Holy Spirit - non trinitarian view

Gabby has asked a point blank question about what a non-trinitarian view of the Holy Spirit would be. A point-blank answer I can offer is, "The Holy Spirit is the breath of God".

The Greek word "pneuma" translated into English as "spirit" (which is a transliteration of the Latin word "spiritus") means, "breath" or "wind". The Latin "spiritus" also means, "breath" or "wind". That our modern ears hear "spirit" and tend to think of something other than "breath" or "wind", needs to be addressed.

When God "breathed" into Adam's nostrils, Adam became a living soul. When God "speaks" His word, powered by His "breath", then His Holy Spirit is exiting it's source (God) and entering (being breathed by) the hearer. Thus, to hear and believe in the gospel (to breathe in the message of salvation), is to "receive the Spirit". The "Holy breath", of God.

Galatians 3:2 "I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?"

More could be said, but I just wanted to offer that for your consideration.

In Christian love,
David

 

[Veritas]

Okay, so I've just followed the "Is Jesus really God" thread to this one via mutzrein's post to Gabby.

So, mutzrein, and DM. The Bible talks about the Holy Spirit "living". What would be an analogy for that?

 

[DM]

Veritas has asked how the word "living" can be applied to the "Holy Spirit". I don't know which particular Scripture(s) you're referring to, but I think I understand the point of the question.

I don't think that the word "living" necessitates some form of personality when applied to the Holy Spirit any more than it would to sin, which is also said to "live" or "dwell", according to Paul.

Romans 7:17 "So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."

Romans 7:20 "But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."

Sin "dwelled" in Paul, just as the Spirit "dwelled" in Paul. Clearly "sin", though it "dwells", is not a personal being. The "Holy Spirit" is the "breath of God" (the word "Spirit" being a transliteration of the Latin word "spiritus", which means "breath" or "wind"). The impact of believing (i.e. breathing in) the message of salvation is to be made alive by "the Spirit". When God formed man he breathed (Spirit = breath) into Adam's nostrils the breath of life and the man became a living soul. (cf. Genesis 2:7) When the message of salvation is believed in the human heart, the "breath of God" (Holy Spirit) becomes the animating principle of life in the heart of that person. God's breath is an extension of Himself, in that the breath of God is what gives life both to physical flesh, and to spiritual life in the believers heart and mind.

In Christian love,
David

 

[Veritas]

You did understand the point. I do think of the Holy Spirit as a person, and that is why I was curious about how you thought of that word.

And thank you for the answer.
But I do have another question for you.

In your view, is Jesus's Spirit, and the Father's Spirit, the same thing?

 

[DM]

Hello Veritas.

I think you might be hinting at Romans 8:9? "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." (The reason that I guess you may be hinting at that verse is because it mentions "the Spirit of God" and "the Spirit of Christ".)

I think that our modern view of the word "Spirit" (or "spirit") causes us to think of "spirit" as a "thing" or an "entity". In the context of this passage, the word "Spirit" has, I believe, the idea of the animating principle of something. The contrast is between "the flesh" and "the Spirit". If we understand "the flesh" to be an influence (animating principle) which governs someones behavior, then I think the same consideration must be given with respect to "the Spirit".

A "spirit" of something then, can be understood as the animating principle which essentially governs one's behavior. For example, Paul expressed to the Corinthian and Colossian churches that while he was "absent in body", he was nevertheless "present in spirit". (cf. 1 Corinthians 5:3 / Colossians 2:5). No Christian (at least no Christian I'm aware of) would conclude this was some sort of astral projection that Paul is referring to. Rather, he is "present in spirit" in the sense that his influence extends (as does God's breath/Spirit) into the hearts of the people he's writing to.

The "spirit of Christ", then, I would conclude is tied to the words which he spoke. Those words, as Jesus himself testified, are "spirit". (cf. John 6:63).

I hope that answered the question satisfactorily, and thank you for the gentle tone with which is was asked.

In Christian love,
David

 

[mutzrein]

David - I have been enjoying reading your posts - and of course the spirit in which they are written. You certainly bring a breath of fresh air to the forum.

Veritas - I've also enjoyed reading your posts too and as David has eluded to, the manner of your approach, I also enjoy. Now you did ask for an analogy from me also, but I was wondering how David's responses sit with you so far. As you have said, you see the Holy Spirit as a person, so may I ask how you see the relationship between the Spirit of God and the spirit of man?

The Lord bless you both

 

[Veritas]

DM,

Yes, verses like Romans 8:9 or Galatians 4:4-7 prompted my question. I understand how you view the word "spirit" and how it applies to the "Holy Spirit".

mutzrein and DM,

I will thank you two for being gentle in tone too, I pray that we can keep it this way

Anyways, I like the way DM has described "spirit" as breath or wind and has related it to our "aliveness" and salvation. I can't help but think of the way God came to the apostles "like a violent wind" in Acts 2:1-4. Fire seems to be related to the Spirit as well.

This has also made me think about what the spirit of man is. I usually just think of man as only body and soul, and forget about the spirit. I know that in the Bible soul and spirit are used interchangably but are in some way different from eachother. They can be divided, Hebrews 4:12. From that verse I also understand that soul is to spirit as joints are to marrow.

That said, I do see a difference between what the spirit of man is and what the Spirit of God is. I would agree with you that the Spirit "animates", but I also see that as one of the intrinsic qualities of the person of the Holy Spirit. I agree with DM about what Paul meant in Corinthians 5:3 and Colossians 2:5 by the "presence of his (Pauls) spirit". I see God as influencing us in a very similar way to how Paul is, but in a much more concrete way (actual presence of Himself).

I guess if it was based on the word "spirit" alone, I wouldn't think of the Holy Spirit as a person either, but I can't get away from thinking of the Holy Spirit as a person because "he" is refered to as "he" or "him" or "who" so many times in scripture. And I know personification is commonly used in scripture, but to me there is a point were I will accept that, yes, this really is a person.

 

[DM]

Veritas: Your observation of the use of personal pronouns in Scripture pertaining to the Holy Spirit, is an observation that I too couldn't help but notice (and notice dramatically) when I first began to question the idea of whether or not the Holy Spirit was really a "person".

The Greek word "pneuma", typically translated into English as "spirit" or "Spirit" (again, from the Latin word "spiritus" which means "breath" or "wind") is often ascribed the personal pronoun "he", based on word gender. It would be similar to taking a Spanish term like "La Libra" (which is Spanish for "the book") and assuming that the feminine article "la", would therefore automatically make the book a "her". Of course, a book is not a person. But I think that's the general error when ascribing "personality" to the word "spirit".

Of course, I may be in error with those conclusions. And so, like you, I seek the wisdom of God through the pages of Scripture, as well as in the hearts of like-minded believers, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith.

Peace in Him.
David

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Mutz,

I still am not seeing anything that tells me that the Holy Spirit is anything other than God, or what He could be if the Holy Spirit is not God.

As a matter of fact, all of the discussions that I have heard that try to support that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are not God have simply supported the 'water, ice, steam' analogy for me. Same thing. Different forms. Different functions. But the same thing.

The blessing that has come from these discussions is knowing that even with so many people searching the Scriptures, no one has come up with anything that even suggest that there is contradictions between The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. Hopefully in that, we may all be blessed.

 

[scorpia]

Mutz,

I still am not seeing anything that tells me that the Holy Spirit is anything other than God, or what He could be if the Holy Spirit is not God.

Why did not the Lord Jesus said (as per bible account) that "I and the Father and the Holy Spirit are One" if the Holy Spirit is really God?

 

[scorpia]

DM,

This has also made me think about what the spirit of man is. I usually just think of man as only body and soul, and forget about the spirit. I know that in the Bible soul and spirit are used interchangably but are in some way different from eachother.

Indeed the spirit and soul is one and the same. For you to be able to comprehend fully what your spirit really is, just plainly refer to your dream. There is a time that you dream of running away, scared and appalled from someone who is also running after you, especially an old ugly creature, and in your dream you can really feel the hardship and tiresome in running. Notice here that your physical body is sound asleep, not moving, and just lying flat in your matress but the scenario in your dream is totally different for you are alive , mobile, and scared in your dream, who is that one running away from someone in your dream then? It is you in your spirit being for when we dream, we temporarily die hence Paul said we die everyday. When we are already dead, it will be the permanent continuation of our never ending dream until the second coming of the Lord.

 

[unred typo]

Indeed the spirit and soul is one and the same. For you to be able to comprehend fully what your spirit really is, just plainly refer to your dream. There is a time that you dream of running away, scared and appalled from someone who is also running after you, especially an old ugly creature, and in your dream you can really feel the hardship and tiresome in running. Notice here that your physical body is sound asleep, not moving, and just lying flat in your matress but the scenario in your dream is totally different for you are alive , mobile, and scared in your dream, who is that one running away from someone in your dream then? It is you in your spirit being for when we dream, we temporarily die hence Paul said we die everyday. When we are already dead, it will be the permanent continuation of our never ending dream until the second coming of the Lord.

Do we have any control over whether this will be a bad unending dream or a nice one? :o

 

[scorpia]

Do we have any control over whether this will be a bad unending dream or a nice one? :o

Nay as in the same manner that we have no control over our own life in the physical world but the true God, He is always in control over all things, be it in the physical or the spiritual realm.

 

[Veritas]

DM wrote:
Of course, I may be in error with those conclusions. And so, like you, I seek the wisdom of God through the pages of Scripture, as well as in the hearts of like-minded believers, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith.

It's wonderful to hear another seeking wisdom of God through the Scripture. When we have disagreements like this I, for one, take solace in what Jesus told us about his greatest commandment:

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Matthew 22:37-40

I hope, that whether we understand God the way I do, or you do, that the above holds true for both of us

Anyways, to get a little back to the subject, I also take solace in what He said about us gathering to talk:

For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them. Matthew 18:20

So, I believe He's with us (literally ;)), helping us all the way!

scorpia wrote:
Indeed the spirit and soul is one and the same. For you to be able to comprehend fully what your spirit really is, just plainly refer to your dream.

Can you back this up with Scripture?

 

[scorpia]

Can you back this up with Scripture?

God himself is not the scripture and it is from God where I learned this thing. Why don't you go back to your previous dreams and try to reckon with your many escapades in them, weren't they for real in your dreams? The fact that you can feel, see, touch, move, run, shout, etc. in your dreams proves that there is still life even when your physical body is asleep or temporarily dead in its physcal state. And who is that living one in your dream? Isn't it that it is your soul and spirit that is wandering in your dreams?

 

[scorpia]

And so, like you, I seek the wisdom of God through the pages of Scripture,

Wisdom of God comes directly from God himself because God is real and alive and He does exist in His own ways. The scripture is not the Lord God and it cannot teach us any absolute and clear fact about God and His wisdom except for one, to testify to us that there is really God whom we can call on at any time. If any one wants wisdom from God, let him come directly to God and ask from God such wisdom, why seek same from the scripture which is not God? This is a very simple way of turning away from God - to have a substitute in the stead of God the Almighty.

[quote:f52bc]
as well as in the hearts of like-minded believers, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith.

[/quote:f52bc]

This further promotes the formation of many religious denominations, doctrines, and teachings which gradually and perpetually divide the so called Christian world of our time.

 

[mutzrein]

Why did not the Lord Jesus said (as per bible account) that "I and the Father and the Holy Spirit are One" if the Holy Spirit is really God?

Actually Scorpia - I cannot find the scripture that says what you have quoted 'as per the bible account'. What passage of the bible are you referring to?

 

[Veritas]

scorpia wrote
God himself is not the scripture and it is from God where I learned this thing (that it is you in your spirit being for when we dream, we temporarily die).

I know God himself is not the scripture, but it is, after all, His Word. I know it to be trustworthy.

I have nothing against you, but how can I trust your word? Alot of people claim revelation. If your ideas line up with the Bible then I can trust what you say about this.

I know and believe that God can and does speak to us in dreams, that is in Scripture. I just get a little nervous with the terms "spirit being" and "dream" are used together; it sounds like New Age stuff to me.