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God the Judge

Oats

Oats

Member
If God judges the heart should that change the way we look at sinners?

I'll go into more detail as I get responses
 
no, we should see the lost as jesus did, in need!

i see good even in the athiests here, in fact i will list the good in each sinner here

iggy(lance) heart and compassion
gendou concerned for the minority(even though we disagree, on the rights side)
lord kalvan polite and respect our beliefs
ma for a muslim has forced me who has a distrust to check my paranoia and to observe which is the truth.
 
theLords said:
What do you mean?
Click to expand...


Sometimes people have questions like:

If someone is forced to kill someone is it a sin for that person?

or

Will children on an obscure island who's never heard the Gospel be saved?

Or

Will someone who is forced to have adultery be claimed a sinner for that action..

But God judges the heart.

Quite often there are actions that produce heart qualities and that is hard to get around...But often people out of pure unadulterated ignorance commit acts that would be in other cases sin.

What do you think?

Even acts of "kindness" could be sin if the heart aint right
 
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Oats said:
If someone is forced to kill someone is it a sin for that person?
Click to expand...


Self defence, you mean ?

Well, life's cruel at times, if I'm forced to kill someone out of self-defence, yes, unfortunately, it is still sin ... :shame

While we have to face the consequences, God by His grace and mercy is more than able to intervene in our favor to mitigate the charges.




Oats said:
Will children on an obscure island who's never heard the Gospel be saved?
Click to expand...


I guess there is a certain accountability age for children - perhaps 12 or 13, not sure .... :chin

But whether one is a child or adult who dies without ever hearing the Gospel, we can only assume that they are not saved according to scriptures. God's ultimate Will and Grace still overrules ....




Oats said:
Will someone who is forced to have adultery be claimed a sinner for that action..
Click to expand...


How can one be "forced" to commit adultery ??? .... :confused
 
Oats said:
Sometimes people have questions like:

If someone is forced to kill someone is it a sin for that person?

or

Will children on an obscure island who's never heard the Gospel be saved?

Or

Will someone who is forced to have adultery be claimed a sinner for that action..

But God judges the heart.

Quite often there are actions that produce heart qualities and that is hard to get around...But often people out of pure unadulterated ignorance commit acts that would be in other cases sin.

What do you think?

Even acts of "kindness" could be sin if the heart aint right
Click to expand...


Overall Oats, sin is sin.


We are BORN into sin. And the wages of sin is death.


We can't escape it just by having a good heart. The only way we can be saved FROM sin is through believing in Jesus and doing God's will.


Children, where ever they are are already saved - the kingdom of heaven is theirs. If they die in childhood that is where they'd be heading.


Yes God looks at the heart, but how can one say in their heart they have no desire to do evil but do it all the same?


Our human eyes look with sympathy at say a battered wife because she was 'driven' to kill. The soldier was 'told' to maim. The adulterer has an 'incapable' wife or husband. The list goes on ... BUT it's ALL SIN.


What God is, he is the ultimate JUDGE, he KNOWS now who his children are and on JUDGMENT day he will redeem all those who are his.
 
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killing in self-defense is a sin? where's that in the bible?

so we should let the rapist and murder get away with the crimes and not call the law or stop them to the best of our ability?
 
lamplady said:
'Thou shalt not kill' is a God given commandment ...
Click to expand...

its actually this thou shalt not murder,(in the original hebrew) for in your case that cause a logical conudrum.

in war one kills one's enemies. didnt joshua kill the amekilites, the people of jericho save rachab and family, and so on?
does god kill? i think so , therefore he cant violate his own rules.
 
jasoncran said:
its actually this thou shalt not murder,(in the original hebrew) for in your case that cause a logical conudrum.

in war one kills one's enemies. didnt joshua kill the amekilites, the people of jericho save rachab and family, and so on?
does god kill? i think so , therefore he cant violate his own rules.
Click to expand...


Thanks Jason...the Bible clearly states that God judges the inner man...

Pride from within is what produces sin...

Still I may agree that people who never hear the Gospel die in sin...
 
jasoncran said:
its actually this thou shalt not murder,(in the original hebrew) for in your case that cause a logical conudrum.

in war one kills one's enemies. didnt joshua kill the amekilites, the people of jericho save rachab and family, and so on?
does god kill? i think so , therefore he cant violate his own rules.
Click to expand...

I knew somebody was going to come up with something like that. What is murder? Isn't it killing another human being? I don't care about it being planned or not it's still killing.


It says, 'thou shalt not kill', it doesn't say, 'thou shalt not kill unless you got a good excuse'.


And God can do what he wants ... wouldn't he be killing people tomorrow those who remained unrepentant and are already dead today? Can we say to him no you'd be violating your own rules? ...

The thing is he is a just God; the commandments were/are for us humans.
 
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very well then, i well entertain this

in the original tounge is not KILL but murder, and theres' a difference.

for again you failed to see this

joshua is commanded to kill men now then God commands us to sin?Now basic logic here if all killing is murder then you just called God a murderer(in a sense) and that cant be.EVEN though that you didnt say it that way but that the way you put this.

but its best to say this that God ordained laws, and we see these that were meant to be judgment

if a child was rebellious to the parents and they took him to the elders, and that found to be true. who killed that child? the whole congretation by stoning. not God, so that cant be murder.

if man kills another in cold blood, what was his punishement, death

who carried out that sentence?

men!

if all killing is murder then that makes no sense.

i see your position but i think your pacifistic argument is lacking.

i could also use romans 13. as a defense for the cops and military.

God ordianed Govts and they are his ministers so long as they follow what he commands, and he still is the affairs of men.


now, then are you actually going to not use the cops when you are being raped ? or your loved ones are danger? and they have to use deadly force? i dont think so, for if be your thinking you would be guilty of murder. having someone else do the deed doesnt free you from blood.
 
jasoncran said:
very well then, i well entertain this

in the original tounge is not KILL but murder, and theres' a difference.

for again you failed to see this

joshua is commanded to kill men now then God commands us to sin?Now basic logic here if all killing is murder then you just called God a murderer(in a sense) and that cant be.EVEN though that you didnt say it that way but that the way you put this.

but its best to say this that God ordained laws, and we see these that were meant to be judgment

if a child was rebellious to the parents and they took him to the elders, and that found to be true. who killed that child? the whole congretation by stoning. not God, so that cant be murder.

if man kills another in cold blood, what was his punishement, death

who carried out that sentence?

men!

if all killing is murder then that makes no sense.

i see your position but i think your pacifistic argument is lacking.

i could also use romans 13. as a defense for the cops and military.

God ordianed Govts and they are his ministers so long as they follow what he commands, and he still is the affairs of men.


now, then are you actually going to not use the cops when you are being raped ? or your loved ones are danger? and they have to use deadly force? i dont think so, for if be your thinking you would be guilty of murder. having someone else do the deed doesnt free you from blood.
Click to expand...




The way I see it there is no justification for killing at any time ... remember God is a just God whatever he thinks, says or does he would do it according to his nature - a fair one.

What took place in the OT is what took place in the OT.

There is no need for any human sacrifice, or killing because someone has caused great offence to God, or wars because of God's wrath, or sweeping out nations because God wants to establish new ones - because Jesus's words and ultimate sacrifice put an end to all that.

Authorities? Well we ALL know they can be very wrong - think China. If an authority told you to worship an idol - would you? Could you?

As for your last scenario I honestly believe that God wouldn't allow true Christians to be placed in that kind of danger - but lets just say he will - again there's still no justification for killing.

The police use their weapons because they can, not because they HAVE to.

Yes it's still murder.

Here in the UK they're managing quite perfectly without guns or excessive force that they kill, (not saying it doesn't happen though), so why should they anywhere else?

It's always murder whenever anyone kills another human being.
 
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so by god telling men to kill(murder) then its not murder?

lets see god made exceptions to the rule.

whoso sheds inoccent blood even that soul shall die?

let see the blood that joshua shed wasn't innocent, so he cant have murdered but he did KILL.

one can kill, but not murder even in God eyes.

that was the point!

please. the police in brittain are superheroes, and able to stop knife attackers bare handed?
i dont think so.

i am trained in law enforcement tactics. trust me the gun will stop that, and one has options. but not all the time.

let me ask will you die so that rapist can continue? is that what you are saying.
 
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yeah, God doesn't know what he's talking about. The entire OT is a joke.

God doesn't change.

People who only read the new testament get a very warped view of Gods nature.

Love cannot exist without justice.
 
Sometimes people have questions like:

If someone is forced to kill someone is it a sin for that person?

or

Will children on an obscure island who's never heard the Gospel be saved?

Or

Will someone who is forced to have adultery be claimed a sinner for that action..

But God judges the heart.

Quite often there are actions that produce heart qualities and that is hard to get around...But often people out of pure unadulterated ignorance commit acts that would be in other cases sin.

What do you think?

Even acts of "kindness" could be sin if the heart aint right
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Good questions.

If you read revelation where it talks about judgement - it says this:

Rev - regarding the lake of fire and the new jerusalem:

the lake of fire (final judgement)

Rev 21
He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."


the new jerusalem

Rev 22 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
Outside are the *dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

So - we get the same sins but two different fates because the new jerusalem comes down after the final judgment.

How can that be?

If you look in other places in revelation it talks about the faithful or those who enduring to the end, ruling with christ over man.
These are scriptures that are often overlooked by christianity in general just through the heaven and hell tradition. The bible makes it clear that Jesus is going to be staying on earth when he returns, not going back to heaven. So there's no point in us being there.

The new jerusalem is where he's going to be ruling from, so it makes sense that everyone else who qualifies is going to be ruling there with him.

To me that would explain the difference. The people who sinned knowingly and didn't care about the consequences on the innocent and the people who just did what everyone else was doing and didn't have God to help them overcome their sins.

Rev 21:27
Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

If God rules, sin cannot be allowed to prosper on the earth, hence 'the rod of iron' thing, but people can still have free will, because they've chosen right (where hades fits in - people are resurrected out of hades before judgement.)
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

So people can be kept from sinning or pursuing sin per say to the expense of othes because they're being ruled by righteousness, so no accidental mistakes. If you look at scriptures in the OT that deal with this period you'll see that people are still tempted to a certain degree but they can't take it too far because they'll be punished. So it does work.





*The only difference between the two passages is 'dogs/cowards' and when you think of it - the upside of dogs is that they can be very noble, but the downside is that they can be slinking/snarling/cowards as well. Hence the term.

When you use 'dogs' in that context, it explains 'cowards'.



Hope that helps.




PS. And I think one of the reasons people have struggled with the idea of living on earth eternally is the boredom. But sin causes suffering, without it, it doesn't exist. When you don't suffer, you don't want to die because life is always interesting. Especially when you have to grow your own food and work with the seasons. The OT talks about people having their own land and living under Gods laws forever.

What the physical/spiritual ratio is, I don't know - but I do know that when you're a child, and you're happy, you don't ever think about wanting to die. How many happy, balanced children want to commit suicide? Think about that state with no suffering, ever.

That to me tells me it's completly possible.
 
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jasoncran said:
so by god telling men to kill(murder) then its not murder?


lets see god made exceptions to the rule.

Sorry only just saw this ...

How are you going to tell God that he did wrong? Like I said God can do what he wants. I also said there is the OT and there's the NT.

No need for most of what went on in the OT because Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice.

whoso sheds inoccent blood even that soul shall die?

You mean like if someone kills a baby? No that baby is already heavenbound.
let see the blood that joshua shed wasn't innocent, so he cant have murdered but he did KILL.

one can kill, but not murder even in God eyes.

that was the point!

To kill someone is WRONG. God said we SHALT NOT do that. God is the judge.

please. the police in brittain are superheroes, and able to stop knife attackers bare handed?
i dont think so.

i am trained in law enforcement tactics. trust me the gun will stop that, and one has options. but not all the time.

It obviously does not require being superheros yet the police here manage ...

let me ask will you die so that rapist can continue? is that what you are saying.

Actually I said I doubt God will put true Christians in that kind of situation. But if he did, for argument sake, - if anyone kills anyone, yes it is WRONG.
Click to expand...



...............................................................................................
 
really, i'm sure that christian face death daily, i know a person who has been sexauly assaulted.

so God didnt tell that men joshua to kill the amekelites and etc.

that is what i mean. God judge them and told joshua to carry out the sentence.

so how can all killing be murder, and lets think in their time not ours.

then that was commanded and you best be doing it, if not then see the story of samuel telling saul that god will look for another king that will follow him who will whole heartedly

really God doesnt let evil befall us? where that in the bible?

men are killed for telling others about jesus,and some women are raped.

job had evil happen to him.
 
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