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Godless marriages

I

Innkeeper-Ministry

Guest
For years I have wondered this and now I bring it to this group. Today and for the past 50 years there has been a godless marriage practice called 'marriage license'. This is where Born again believers are made to covenant with the World driven government and have them be rulers over their marriages. No where in the Scriptures is there a requirement for such ungodly covenants. The Scripture says 'What God has joined together LET NO MAN put asunder'. This is a truth and indisputable. Now I realize that there is a group who will say we are to obey the laws of the land. The laws of the land do not supersede the laws of God. If the Lord joins a MAN & WOMAN together then NO MAN has the right to break that up. Also the same license used by believers today is the same one used by same sex marriages. Another reason for my topic here is as believers we are to NOT bring another believer to the courts of Unbelievers.
1Co 6:1-7 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? (2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? (3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? (4) If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. (5) I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? (6) But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. (7) Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

The only way to have a godly marriage is to have one without the attachment to this world. I know this topic will cause many to hate me or condemn me. However I stand before God knowing full well My Marriage is before God not man!
 
I'm not sure what you're saying... please explain (I'm British, so I assume things are different here). What are "marriage licenses" and what do you have against them?
 
Is below, what you are talking about ?


5 Reasons Why Christians Should Not Obtain a State Marriage License

by Pastor Matt Trewhella

Every year thousands of Christians amble down to their local county courthouse and obtain a marriage license from the State in order to marry their future spouse. They do this unquestioningly. They do it because their pastor has told them to go get one, and besides, "everybody else gets one." This pamphlet attempts to answer the question - why should we not get one?

1. The definition of a "license" demands that we not obtain one to marry. Black’s Law Dictionary defines "license" as, "The permission by competent authority to do an act which without such permission, would be illegal." We need to ask ourselves- why should it be illegal to marry without the State’s permission? More importantly, why should we need the State’s permission to participate in something which God instituted (Gen. 2:18-24)? We should not need the State’s permission to marry nor should we grovel before state officials to seek it. What if you apply and the State says "no"? You must understand that the authority to license implies the power to prohibit. A license by definition "confers a right" to do something. The State cannot grant the right to marry. It is a God-given right.



2. When you marry with a marriage license, you grant the State jurisdiction over your marriage. When you marry with a marriage license, your marriage is a creature of the State. It is a corporation of the State! Therefore, they have jurisdiction over your marriage including the fruit of your marriage. What is the fruit of your marriage? Your children and every piece of property you own. There is plenty of case law in American jurisprudence which declares this to be true.

In 1993, parents were upset here in Wisconsin because a test was being administered to their children in the government schools which was very invasive of the family’s privacy. When parents complained, they were shocked by the school bureaucrats who informed them that their children were required to take the test by law and that they would have to take the test because they (the government school) had jurisdiction over their children. When parents asked the bureaucrats what gave them jurisdiction, the bureaucrats answered, "your marriage license and their birth certificates." Judicially, and in increasing fashion, practically, your state marriage license has far-reaching implications.

3. When you marry with a marriage license, you place yourself under a body of law which is immoral. By obtaining a marriage license, you place yourself under the jurisdiction of Family Court which is governed by unbiblical and immoral laws. Under these laws, you can divorce for any reason. Often, the courts side with the spouse who is in rebellion to God, and castigates the spouse who remains faithful by ordering him or her not to speak about the Bible or other matters of faith when present with the children.

As a minister, I cannot in good conscience perform a marriage which would place people under this immoral body of laws. I also cannot marry someone with a marriage license because to do so I have to act as an agent of the State! I would have to sign the marriage license, and I would have to mail it into the State. Given the State’s demand to usurp the place of God and family regarding marriage, and given it’s unbiblical, immoral laws to govern marriage, it would be an act of treason for me to do so.

4. The marriage license invades and removes God-given parental authority. When you read the Bible, you see that God intended for children to have their father’s blessing regarding whom they married. Daughters were to be given in marriage by their fathers (Dt. 22:16; Ex. 22:17; I Cor. 7:38). We have a vestige of this in our culture today in that the father takes his daughter to the front of the altar and the minister asks, "Who gives this woman to be married to this man?"

Historically, there was no requirement to obtain a marriage license in colonial America. When you read the laws of the colonies and then the states, you see only two requirements for marriage. First, you had to obtain your parents permission to marry, and second, you had to post public notice of the marriage 5-15 days before the ceremony.

Notice you had to obtain your parents permission. Back then you saw godly government displayed in that the State recognized the parents authority by demanding that the parents permission be obtained. Today, the all-encompassing ungodly State demands that their permission be obtained to marry.

By issuing marriage licenses, the State is saying, "You don’t need your parents permission, you need our permission." If parents are opposed to their child’s marrying a certain person and refuse to give their permission, the child can do an end run around the parents authority by obtaining the State’s permission, and marry anyway. This is an invasion and removal of God-given parental authority by the State.

5. When you marry with a marriage license, you are like a polygamist. From the State’s point of view, when you marry with a marriage license, you are not just marrying your spouse, but you are also marrying the State.

The most blatant declaration of this fact that I have ever found is a brochure entitled "With This Ring I Thee Wed." It is found in county courthouses across Ohio where people go to obtain their marriage licenses. It is published by the Ohio State Bar Association. The opening paragraph under the subtitle "Marriage Vows" states, "Actually, when you repeat your marriage vows you enter into a legal contract. There are three parties to that contract. 1.You; 2. Your husband or wife, as the case may be; and 3. the State of Ohio."

See, the State and the lawyers know that when you marry with a marriage license, you are not just marrying your spouse, you are marrying the State! You are like a polygamist! You are not just making a vow to your spouse, but you are making a vow to the State and your spouse. You are also giving undue jurisdiction to the State.

When Does the State Have Jurisdiction Over a Marriage?

God intended the State to have jurisdiction over a marriage for two reasons - 1). in the case of divorce, and 2). when crimes are committed i.e., adultery, bigamy. etc. Unfortunately, the State now allows divorce for any reason, and it does not prosecute for adultery.

In either case, divorce or crime, a marriage license is not necessary for the courts to determine whether a marriage existed or not. What is needed are witnesses. This is why you have a best man and a maid of honor. They should sign the marriage certificate in your family Bible, and the wedding day guest book should be kept.

Marriage was instituted by God, therefore it is a God-given right. According to Scripture, it is to be governed by the family, and the State only has jurisdiction in the cases of divorce or crime.

History of Marriage Licenses in America



George Washington was married without a marriage license. So, how did we come to this place in America where marriage licenses are issued?

Historically, all the states in America had laws outlawing the marriage of blacks and whites. In the mid-1800’s, certain states began allowing interracial marriages or miscegenation as long as those marrying received a license from the state. In other words they had to receive permission to do an act which without such permission would have been illegal.

Blacks Law Dictionary points to this historical fact when it defines "marriage license" as, "A license or permission granted by public authority to persons who intend to intermarry." "Intermarry" is defined in Black’s Law Dictionary as, "Miscegenation; mixed or interracial marriages."

Give the State an inch and they will take a 100 miles (or as one elderly woman once said to me "10,000 miles.") Not long after these licenses were issued, some states began requiring all people who marry to obtain a marriage license. In 1923, the Federal Government established the Uniform Marriage and Marriage License Act (they later established the Uniform Marriage and Divorce Act). By 1929, every state in the Union had adopted marriage license laws.

What Should We Do?

Christian couples should not be marrying with State marriage licenses, nor should ministers be marrying people with State marriage licenses. Some have said to me, "If someone is married without a marriage license, then they aren’t really married." Given the fact that states may soon legalize same-sex marriages, we need to ask ourselves, "If a man and a man marry with a State marriage license, and a man and woman marry without a State marriage license - who’s really married? Is it the two men with a marriage license, or the man and woman without a marriage license? In reality, this contention that people are not really married unless they obtain a marriage license simply reveals how Statist we are in our thinking. We need to think biblically. (As for homosexuals marrying, outlaw sodomy as God's law demands, and there will be no threat of sodomites marrying.)

You should not have to obtain a license from the State to marry someone anymore than you should have to obtain a license from the State to be a parent, which some in academic and legislative circles are currently pushing to be made law.

When I marry a couple, I always buy them a Family Bible which contains birth and death records, and a marriage certificate. We record the marriage in the Family Bible. What’s recorded in a Family Bible will stand up as legal evidence in any court of law in America. Early Americans were married without a marriage license. They simply recorded their marriages in their Family Bibles. So should we.

(Pastor Trewhella has been marrying couples without marriage licenses for ten years. Many other pastors also refuse to marry couples with State marriage licenses.)
http://www.mercyseat.net/BROCHURES/marriagelicense.htm
 
Lewis - I believed in this long before I saw this pastor's website about this but yes he is right on about this issue. To the inhope's response - Marriage licenses are given to have a legal marriage in this world. However as a Christian we are not to be in covenant with this world and no where in Bible does it require this and that is why I am against it!
 
Inkeeper, I appreciate your view on this matter but I have one question for you. I am getting married in less than two weeks. Would you say that my marriage is "Godless" because we have obtained a marriage license? Your opinion does not have any impact on my feelings on the matter, and I am not trying to bait you in the least. It's just that the title of your thread made me curious as to how you view it.

Thanks, and God bless
 
caromurp said:
Inkeeper, I appreciate your view on this matter but I have one question for you. I am getting married in less than two weeks. Would you say that my marriage is "Godless" because we have obtained a marriage license? Your opinion does not have any impact on my feelings on the matter, and I am not trying to bait you in the least. It's just that the title of your thread made me curious as to how you view it.

Thanks, and God bless
Yes - you asked and I answered. I am not calling YOU Godless I am call ANY marriage that is instituted by man godless since in the Scripture it is God who joins us together and not man. By getting a license you are making the world driven government the head of your marriage. I thought I made this clear in my post. Remember I am not calling YOU godless. I shared my biblical reasons and I wonder which ones do you dispute? Your marriage will be Law based not God based. Your marriage can be dissolved very easily without and consideration for God being the head of your marriage - hense it is no longer God in charge it is the Laws of man. Again for you I will prove my point. If a marriage is what God joins together (MAN & WOMAN ONLY!!!!) then who has the right to separate you? No one! However in the Legal marriage Man has full legal right to separate the marriage for whatever reason. Here is the other example I said: That as believers we are NOT to take other Christians to man's courts. Well we both know that is out the window right? So once again I ask what am I saying that is not in line with the truth of God's word?
 
Ok, I understand you. But you are making a huge assumption that our relationship doesn't have God at the centre already. God has joined us together, and in our hearts we are knit already. But we live in a country that doesn't recognize marriage unless you have a certificate. I want the government to recognize that I am his wife and that we have certain rights to one another, such as being each other's beneficiary and next of kin. It causes legal problems if the government doesn't recognize your marriage. Not only that, getting a certificate of marriage by a government does not mean that we don't recognize that without God there would be no relationship in the first place. That does not mean that we are going to be prone to divorce either because for us it is never an option. So, I do understand that it's not necessarily the paper that makes the marriage, but rather it is the Lord....but to call a legal marriage "Godless" is far fetched and presumptuous.

*P.S* What about the marriage ceremonies that Jesus attended? They were recognized by the government.
 
Once again you miss the point so me explaining any deeper will just be missed as well so why bother. You said:

P.S* What about the marriage ceremonies that Jesus attended? They were recognized by the government.

Where in the Scriptures does it say the government recognized that marriage?
 
It's not in the scripture, it's historical.... because they were under Roman rule and the Roman's recognized Jewish traditions as valid for Jews.

I'm not trying to aggravate you, but I don't see where I have missed your point. If you don't want to discuss it it's ok with me. :nod
 
Rome had NO laws concerning Jewish marriages. Nowhere is there any Roman law that required Jewish marriages to be recognized by their government. In America there were no laws concerning marriages except it be done by the church. The records were kept in the bibles not in the court system. Common Law marriages were to establishment of rule and it required no license only a commitment and a declaration of the couples marriage. You also said something my friend that is in error. My WIFE and I don't need any legal paper of marriage for me or her to be one who receives an inheritance. All myself or my wife needs to do is have something written up and witnessed and that is all . You also said you and hubby are not going to be prone to divorce - No one is planning that. However because you are under man's laws it is man's law that can grant a divorce with only one person wanting it. I know this fact because 2 of my former marriages ended this way after I found my first marriage being taken over by her adultery and my second marriage my spouse just got tired of me after only 1 year of marriage. I had no say in the divorce. That is why my WIFE and I can never be parted because it is under God's headship not man's. Let me tell you I have given her plenty of good reasons to leave me but because our marriage is God centered it is God ruled. Let me make this plain as day - this is NOT a salvation issue - it is a relationship issue. My relationship with Jesus is more important then what man thinks I should do. I care less if man recognizes my marriage as long as God does and I know for fact He does
 
Innkeeper, I can see where your reasoning is coming from, but I have to say it is flawed.

A Marraige is not made Godless by getting a Godless Marraige License from a local governmental authority. God is far too powerful to be removed from the lives of those who love him by a flimsy old piece of paper. What makes a Marraige Godless is when that paper is the reason you are married and not as the result of God's will.

I'm Caromurp's fiance and I as well do not see Divorce as an option for our upcoming marraige. Not only do I not see it as an option, but when the thought crosses my mind, the still, quiet voice of our MIghty Holy Spirit convicts me to keep my mind on other things and how in just 12 days I am commiting to the Lord's will in my life as living as Caroline's husband. You would call this Godless because we went and got our license? Tell that to our Mighty Redeemer!

In our relationship there has been less than a week full of nights where Caroline and I have not prayed together pleading before God that he would be the center of our relationship. The nights we didn't pray together Caroline was in Kazakhstan on a mission trip and she could not call every night. You would say that nightly inquiring of the Lord and seeking his blessing on our relationship is Godless because we went and got our license? Tell that to our savior who is our gracious intercessor!

Those who rely on the Marraige License as the foundation of their marraige, those are the ones whose marraige is Godless. However, to the ones who live in God's ways and bring their marraige to his feet each day, if not more, how can you take the part of God and call what he has brought together Godless on the account of a piece of paper?
 
I read your post last night around midnight and was about to respond but wisdom took over and I went to sleep. Well now it is past 2pm here and I am ready to respond. Sir - No one sees divorce as an option. The 52% or so CHRISTIAN marriages end up in divorce and I know none of them planned on doing so. As I said before I have no doubt you two are decent people and am sure your intentions are honorable. However my WHOLE point here is that ANY covenant of authority that excludes God is ungodly. I mean what ever happened to the Separation of Church and State? Marriage is a God ordained institution not a man made one. Any time there is authority of God in ANY given thing - God must have Last word and when you have a marriage made by man God does NOT have the last word - the Law of man does. Are you also going to say again I am so flawed? Well my friends I am use to that.
 
Marriage

Among the many plans Satan is attempting to accomplish is the destruction of the family. Birth control and abortion have been very successful. Public education is perhaps his crowning achievement. The ironically named "womens liberation" has also been effective. However, Satan does not always use a frontal assault. If we consider the subject of marriage, we can see a subject that becomes clouded by many different issues.

The first marriage is an example of clarity. There are three parties involved, a man, a woman, and God. This is the core of marriage. As the world became populated, families would participate, meddle, manipulate, arrange and even ruin marriage "ceremonies". Often God would be left out completely and sometime false gods would be elevated.

At the time of Christ you have every type of living arrangement you could think of. However, what we think of as the typical "family" with an event or ceremony to start was still the most common form.

By and large governments were not interested in family matters. They only bring headaches and no revenue.

It was the organized church and the declaration of marriage as a sacrament that subjected a couple to external of terms and condition for their marriage. Since the so-called enlightenment, the regulatory characteristics of the church have been transfered to the government.

In Roman times abandoned wives and children were considered a family problem. Later, they were then considered a church problem and are now considered a government problem.

Governments regulate marriage and divorce because they want to insure order in society. If they neglected to adjudicate such things, the public would clamor for their involvement. In Roman times, people wanted to become Christian because they could see the order accomplish by the Holy Spirit working in the lives of people. A woman would much rather marry a Christian and be assured that her husband would nor abandon her.

As the church became ascendant, people saw the order in their lives not accomplished by surrender to God, but by the power of the church. Is was then a fairly smooth transition for people to continue to look to a human organization to provide them with a comfortable and orderly environment.

The history of Western Civilization is pretty much the dilution of Christianity into an organizational system and the transfer of that system into government as the basis for the new religion of secularism.

In the last 200 years we have seen the removal of men from the home as employment was industrialized, the removal of children from the home as child rearing became industrialized and then the removal of women from the home as the last labor resource was drafted to fuel the economic system Satan has used to drive his enslavement of the world.

The marriage certificate issued by the government is not an evil thing in itself. It is like a census record of who did what when. As a symbol of how far the secular world has replaced the Christian world, it is an object of sadness.

Consider the parties of a modern marriage;

A man
A woman
God
both families
neighbors
relatives
coworkers
wedding businesses
friends

It is easy to see how a wedding becomes a circus. It is ironic that this often happens years after the couple has been living together as husband and wife.

God is often left out of the decision to live together, he is often left out of any wedding event considerations. And is often only obliquely mentioned in the wedding ceremony itself.

I see the problem more as an absence of God as opposed to the intrusive presence of the state. God has become so diminished that even the idea of homosexual "marriage" is accepted by many who claim to be Christian.
 
:amen :amen :amen :amen :amen :amen :amen :amen :amen
 
Now that is some stuff I can agree with.

Tim, Innkeeper, our wedding ceremony is nothing like what Tim described. There will be Hymns, a Gospel presentation, and the entire church is taking care of the arrangments as God has enabled them to. We are dressing up as the current tradition is, but I will be in a suit that I own and will use as something to wear when I preach instead of a Tux that I rent for a day. Our Family and friends have been invited to come and witness our union, but we are not catering anything about the ceremony to them. My family has pocked at me several times regarding how our ceremony will be a dry ceremony.

Regardless of the license we got, this marraige is of God and will stay that way. I am not swearing to the state that I will live with Caroline until I see a good reason to leave, but I am commiting my life to God yet again, and in this ceremony recognizing thatI am following God and that God has given Caroline to me and me to her to be one spirit with.

This is how my marraige to Caroline will begin and there will not be an end unless God brings one of us home before the other. God will be honored by this wedding and he will be the head of our Marriage. I do not see where God is not as Caroline and I prepare to accept his will for our lives and be joined together as one.
 
Once again you miss the point all together. What you ware or where you get married or how 'dry' your marriage thing is is NOT NOT NOT my point. You actually said you are NOT swearing to the state with this marriage? How are you not swearing to it? Even your pastor will be saying 'SO BY THE POWER INVESTED IN ME BY THE STATE OF __________ I NOW PRONOUNCE YOU HUSBAND AND WIFE." I should not be so surprised about you not getting it but I sure am. When you get a license from the state that makes the state the official legal authority over your union. This is a fact! Even your Pastor by accepting this is giving his spiritual authority in your marriage to the state thus making his church a ward of the state as well. By him even getting registered by the state is also another unbiblical practice. Again where is the separation of Church and state? I know the more I speak on this the less you will understand because you will do what you want. I thank God my WIFE and I are NOT bound by this world or it's carnal system. Our marriage is Forever and NO man can separate us nor do they have authority to do so :salute
 
Lets try and limit the larger font sizes to just the sentences or words you'd like to emphasize.

Thanks. :salute
 
wow I guess I can not win in here :rolling I am either too judgmental or my font is too large :rolling Never mind that fact or content of the message just please only look at the size of my font :confused I used the size of my font because the smaller font was not seen because over and over they don't get it. Oh well I sure hope now this is not too small? Oh well Can't please them all right? :wave
 
:biglol

Ok now, I don't have an issue with your content (as of yet). I pray you don't continue with this legalistic approach. If people aren't getting what you say, it surely isn't because the font is too small. Maybe it's the message. Maybe some here aren't going to turn the God-given institute of marriage into a legalistic issue. Maybe some of us truly believe God will honor and bless the marriage of two believers regardless of who married them and how the ceremony was performed.

My God doesn't confine HIMSELF to man-made boxes. Besides, I didn't come in here to get into a spitting contest with anyone. I was asked to take care of a font issue, which under the rules of the TOS that every members agrees to by registering here, I have the right to do.

Another portion of the TOS that gets overlooked is the part that requests that no member publicly challenge a Staff decision. We will be more than happy to listen to grievances via PM.

Thanks for understanding.
 
Yes Vic I am a bit sarcastic my friend so I almost want to say 'Sorry' but since that is me I wont be unreal. I know most in here will disregard the message I posted and it is not about being legalistic for if it was I would say DO it. I am sure most who do have their little man made paper giving them permission to marry will think my wife and I are not really married since we refuse to be in covenant with man when it comes to a Godly Marriage. Anyway you took care of the problem and for that ty for understanding my smart alek comments LOL
 
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