God's Election

[veteran]

I noted some were asking about the idea of God's chosen elect and the general idea of the election. Wanted to open up a springboard for it here.

What I believe (not a Calvinist):

John 17 to me is one of the most important and revealing Scripture of two groups of believers on Christ that are eventually to become 'one' in Christ Jesus together. The first group is about Christ's chosen Apostles He prayed for there especially. They represent a chosen leadership.

The Apostle Paul (Saul) is a special example of a chosen elect. Before Christ called him, Paul as a Pharisee was busy hunting Christians down and delivering them up to the non-believing Jews in Jerusalem to be persecuted. On the road to Damascus Saul (Paul) even had a letter of authority to hunt Christians and bring them captive in chains to Jerusalem. That's when Christ appeared to him, and spoke to him, removing any doubt he might have as to Christ Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

That meant direct divine intervention. Christ said Paul was His "chosen vessel" (Acts 9:15). There's no way to show that Paul first believed on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ before Christ struck him down on the road to Damascus. That's a sign of a chosen elect.

An analogy I like to use to explain the Biblical idea of election is that of a football team. In the analogy there's a first string of players, and a second string. They all get playtime, and they all make up the Team. But the first string of players represent the experienced leadership that will not fail for the second string. The whole team wins the game, not just the first string. All contribute in the victory.

God's chosen ones represent His structure on earth to take His Plan of Salvation forth to all peoples. If they could fail in that they wouldn't represent Him. This is why we see many Bible examples of God directing intervening in the lives of His chosen servants when they got in trouble, all throughout The Bible, in both OT and NT. It's not for their sake, but ultimately for His sake, to make sure His Gospel Plan goes forth and produces fruit. WHY they are chosen is a whole other matter.

 

[HisSheep]

So it is your assertion that some of the saved are chosen (elect) and others choose of their freewill?

Why is the doctrine of sovereign election so difficult for people to accept? Why does it arouse such anger? One must mitigate much scripture to deny it. The New Covenant is prophesied in great detail in Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. These books are consistent in every way with the hermeneutics of sovereign election.

No one chooses God; no one wants God, unless moved by the Spirit to do so. The relationship between man and God is initiated by God putting His Spirit within a person, causing them to come alive in Him. We are effectively dead before that moment, unable to help ourselves at all… just like the dry bones in Ezekiel 37 – just one prophesy of the New Covenant in that book.

If scripture and our understanding do not connect, we must change our understanding.

-HisSheep

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I believe their is partial truth in both posts above.

For the first post, what I would say I do not agree with is that the chosen are only those who are in leadership or that john 17 is only about apostles
Jhn 17:6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

At that time Jesus had more than just the aposltes, besides them were the disciples and I do not see anything in this chapter that says that they are not included here. Besides that when we read the rest of the NT we see that the beloved, the elect are far more than just aposltes or those in leadership.

I do agree that there is a smaller group of those who are elect and there is another group which the bible calls the called who are many. I do not agree that any of these people are saved from " free will" or " choice" but that salvation is in the Lord's hands. We do not see the gospel preached being " choose" but believe.


As for the second post, preservation of the saints is true, but it is not that falling away is not real and does not happen, it is that the elect will not fall away because they were ordained to bring forth fruit unto God and they will do that as it was already declared before the foundation of the earth. It is not that they can sin and who as their flesh desires and God will preserve them, it is that they will do what they were foreordained to do so that they will not fall away. We should walk in faith that we are the elect but there are those who are called and not elect, and they can and often will fall away we need to fear God and stand by faith.

 

[mondar]

An analogy I like to use to explain the Biblical idea of election is that of a football team. In the analogy there's a first string of players, and a second string. They all get playtime, and they all make up the Team. But the first string of players represent the experienced leadership that will not fail for the second string. The whole team wins the game, not just the first string. All contribute in the victory.

So then, is election based upon human merit? Cannot the first stringer boast that he made better decisions then the 2nd stringer. To carry the analogy on, the first stringer knows what to do in the tough parts of the football game? So God chose only the most experienced and the best, the first string?

If it is true that God chose the first stringers.... then God did not choose the weak and beggarly elements of this world to confound the strong. He simply chose those who deserved to be first stringers.

God's chosen ones represent His structure on earth to take His Plan of Salvation forth to all peoples. If they could fail in that they wouldn't represent Him. This is why we see many Bible examples of God directing intervening in the lives of His chosen servants when they got in trouble, all throughout The Bible, in both OT and NT. It's not for their sake, but ultimately for His sake, to make sure His Gospel Plan goes forth and produces fruit. WHY they are chosen is a whole other matter.

OK, so God is choosing his servants and his elect on the basis of those who will be most effective in taking the gospel message to the world? Is this what you are saying?

So then, if I am chosen, I am chosen because God needs me, because of my value in being a witness for him? Would he be able to do the job without me?

I must admit some reservations about the above model of election. I would prefer the model that God choose the poor and weak of this world so that all the glory might go to God. I must admit I have this funny idea that it is all my grace alone, and that we are simply sinners rebelling against the mighty God, and he chose to redeem some for his glory, and he chose to judge others for his glory also. We all deserve to be vessels of wrath. We are all made out of the same clay, but God in his mercy, chose to make some into vessels of honor.

 

[HisSheep]

...he chose to redeem some for his glory, and he chose to judge others for his glory also. We all deserve to be vessels of wrath. We are all made out of the same clay, but God in his mercy, chose to make some into vessels of honor.

Amen! :yes

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

...he chose to redeem some for his glory, and he chose to judge others for his glory also. We all deserve to be vessels of wrath. We are all made out of the same clay, but God in his mercy, chose to make some into vessels of honor.

Amen! :yes

I second that! amen!

The only reason why the elect are what they are is because God not only chose them before the foundation of the earth- but because along with that He ordained the good works they would walk in for them when they were saved- and then He fills us with His Spirit so that it is He that lives and works in and through us for all of His will and good pleasure and we only will to walk that way because He has put it in us to will it. AMEN

blessed is the man whom those choosest and causeth to come unto you

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

 

[HisSheep]

Yea Verily!

 

[veteran]

The ones our Lord Jesus speaks of in John 17, that The Father gave Him from the foundation of the world is... about His Apostles. That doesn't mean those are the only elect though. It's those Apostles who were with Him there at the time of His prayer.

John 17:12-14
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
(KJV)


John 17:18-21
18 As thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
(KJV)

Christ chose His elect especially for the purpose of taking His Gospel forth. The idea of a first string vs. a second string is not meant in the sense that some are better than others. It's about responsibility, not privilege. Those who haven't served in offices of responsibility often confuse the difference between responsibility and privilege or status. In final, our Lord Jesus prayed that we all become 'one'.

But will Christ's 12 Apostles each sit upon a throne judging over one of the 12 tribes of Israel, as written? Yes. If that doesn't show the idea of a chosen leadership for the saints, then I don't know what does. We're not to be envious of their chosen status, but be joyful that Christ set them up for us, and for all those who have believed on Him. I dare say, in Christ's Kingdom to come, there won't be any playing politics as teacher's pet. Each will receive according to their works, and our works do follow us to Heaven.

 

[mondar]

The ones our Lord Jesus speaks of in John 17, that The Father gave Him from the foundation of the world is... about His Apostles. That doesn't mean those are the only elect though. It's those Apostles who were with Him there at the time of His prayer.

John 17:12-14
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
(KJV)


John 17:18-21
18 As thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
(KJV)

Christ chose His elect especially for the purpose of taking His Gospel forth. The idea of a first string vs. a second string is not meant in the sense that some are better than others. It's about responsibility, not privilege. Those who haven't served in offices of responsibility often confuse the difference between responsibility and privilege or status. In final, our Lord Jesus prayed that we all become 'one'.

But will Christ's 12 Apostles each sit upon a throne judging over one of the 12 tribes of Israel, as written? Yes. If that doesn't show the idea of a chosen leadership for the saints, then I don't know what does. We're not to be envious of their chosen status, but be joyful that Christ set them up for us, and for all those who have believed on Him. I dare say, in Christ's Kingdom to come, there won't be any playing politics as teacher's pet. Each will receive according to their works, and our works do follow us to Heaven.

Veteran, OK, I don't think I saw your thinking completely. I was thought you were talking about salvation with reference to the analogy of first and second string players. I now think you were confusing two different elections, or kind of running them together.

I would agree that verses 6-19 are about the apostles. I would also agree that the apostles are elect (except the son of perdition---Judas). They were also chosen, not only to salvation, but to the revelatory office of Apostle. However, the issue here is mainly an issue of office. Not everything that refers to office applies to election to salvation. There is rewards for service for those elected to certain offices. I would even agree that election to office is a synergistic issue of wills to a degree. am not sure about that, when I think of Jonah, and the force God used, I do not see much synergism with Jonah. Election to salvation is not the same, it is totally monergistic. It is the will of God. Man, while his will is exercised, is secondary to God's will.

 

[shad]

I do agree that there is a smaller group of those who are elect and there is another group which the bible calls the called who are many. I do not agree that any of these people are saved from " free will" or " choice" but that salvation is in the Lord's hands. We do not see the gospel preached being " choose" but believe.

I second that, amen.

 

[veteran]

Veteran, OK, I don't think I saw your thinking completely. I was thought you were talking about salvation with reference to the analogy of first and second string players. I now think you were confusing two different elections, or kind of running them together.

I would agree that verses 6-19 are about the apostles. I would also agree that the apostles are elect (except the son of perdition---Judas). They were also chosen, not only to salvation, but to the revelatory office of Apostle. However, the issue here is mainly an issue of office. Not everything that refers to office applies to election to salvation. There is rewards for service for those elected to certain offices. I would even agree that election to office is a synergistic issue of wills to a degree. am not sure about that, when I think of Jonah, and the force God used, I do not see much synergism with Jonah. Election to salvation is not the same, it is totally monergistic. It is the will of God. Man, while his will is exercised, is secondary to God's will.

Running the two elections together is kind of what The Bible does. Not everyone is a chosen 'sent' one. That's the meaning of the word Apostle; it means to be 'sent' by Christ. Many are called, but few are chosen. Yet those who believe on Christ Jesus through the word of His sent ones are to become one with them.

When Paul spoke of a remnant of Israel in Rom.11:1-5 which God had preserved by His Grace, that shows a chosen election also. Jonah, the Patriarchs, prophets and Apostles show that also. I'm willing to admit that I am not a chosen one like Christ's Apostles, nor like the OT prophets or Patriarchs like Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc. But I do know I have a calling from The LORD because of certain personal events in my life others can give witness to.

For a 'sent' one by Christ, I don't think those can fall away, because The LORD won't allow it. He will intervene in their lives as witnessed in many situations in The Bible with Jonah, Abraham, the Apostles (Paul especially), etc. I believe those who are only called can fall away of their own choice, becoming part of Christ's elect as they keep their relationship with Him. I see the 'once saved, always saved' idea having sprung from looking at the lives of those 'sent' by The LORD, but not by those who could fall away, like Ananias in Acts 5. Understanding that difference should... make those who are called pay more attention to working out their salvation through Christ, instead of treating theirselves as if they are a chosen 'sent' one, and without evidence of God directly appearing and speaking to them.

 

[mondar]

Veteran, OK, I don't think I saw your thinking completely. I was thought you were talking about salvation with reference to the analogy of first and second string players. I now think you were confusing two different elections, or kind of running them together.

I would agree that verses 6-19 are about the apostles. I would also agree that the apostles are elect (except the son of perdition---Judas). They were also chosen, not only to salvation, but to the revelatory office of Apostle. However, the issue here is mainly an issue of office. Not everything that refers to office applies to election to salvation. There is rewards for service for those elected to certain offices. I would even agree that election to office is a synergistic issue of wills to a degree. am not sure about that, when I think of Jonah, and the force God used, I do not see much synergism with Jonah. Election to salvation is not the same, it is totally monergistic. It is the will of God. Man, while his will is exercised, is secondary to God's will.

Running the two elections together is kind of what The Bible does....

Everyone going to heaven is elected to salvation. Not everyone going to heaven is chosen to the office of apostle, prophet, etc. There are differences.

 

[frying-pan-addict]

in a nutshell you are arguing over the Ordo Salutis (order of salvation)...

is it... Calvainistic

1)Election
2)Predestination
3)Foreknowledge
4)Calling
5)Regeneration
6)Repentance
7)Faith
8)Justification
9)Adoption
10)Sanctification
11)Glorification

----------------------------------OR Armenian

1)Foreknowledge
2)Election
3)Predestination
4)Calling
5)Repentance
6)Faith
7)Regeneration
8)Justification
9)Adoption
10)Sanctification
11)Glorification

Election is a basic Christian doctrine. It's all the details that are argued over. Basically the order and whether election is corporate or individual, etc. I would hold to the second view

 

[mondar]

The Ordo Salutis is part of the differences, but I think it is much more.