God's plan is so perfect, so complex, shortsighted Arminians and Calvinists just can't fathom it.

[Alfred Persson]

Calvin and Arminius are like two shortsighted observers who can barely see only half of the elephant. One can see only the head to the middle of its body, the other only the tail to the middle of its body. So both agree what an Elephant's torso looks like, but fight tooth and nail when describing what the entire elephant looks like.

Sherlock Holmes would grasp the error immediately, and put the testimony of both together and draw the full picture of an elephant accurately, with both Head and Tail.

But not Arminians and Calvinists. They rant and rave how "blind" the other guy is.

Was Christ blind when He contradicts Arminus saying He would lose no one given to Him?

"This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. (Jn. 6:39 NKJ)

Was Paul blind when he contradicts Arminus saying those predestined He also glorified:

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? (Rom. 8:29-31 NKJ)

Was God blind when twice contradicts Calvin repeating"whosever believes" in Christ has eternal life (John 3:14-16)?

14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (Jn. 3:14-16 NKJ)

No, its more complex than Arminius or Calvin could see.

God does predestine the elect to salvation, without thereby denying the non-elect can also be saved if they grasp the opportunity. God gracefully enables all the non-elect choose to be saved.

God makes sure everyone born since the foundation of the world has seen the light of Christ at somepoint in their existence so they can choose:

4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
...
9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. (Jn. 1:4-9 NKJ)

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

God's plan is so perfect, so complex, shortsighted Arminians and Calvinists just can't fathom it.

Calvin’s self-contradiction proves Sherlock Holmes a better logician | End Time News

Calvin was not a sound logician like Sherlock Holmes, that is evident by the self-contradiction his premises imply. For example, Peter says: 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the...

endtimenews.net

 

[Whatever]

15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

The problem is that you have put the emphasis on the "whoever" as if it meant "any autonomous person who by his libertarian free will believes."

The emphasis is on believes. The Father sent His Son into the world to save all those who believe.

Even Arminians believe that God by His omniscience and foreknowledge already knew who would believe and who wouldn't. Why would God send His Son to atone for people that He infallibly knows won't believe? Why would He desire the salvation of men He infallibly knows won't be saved?

 

[Alfred Persson]

The problem is that you have put the emphasis on the "whoever" as if it meant "any autonomous person who by his libertarian free will believes."

The emphasis is on believes. The Father sent His Son into the world to save all those who believe.

Even Arminians believe that God by His omniscience and foreknowledge already knew who would believe and who wouldn't. Why would God send His Son to atone for people that He infallibly knows won't believe? Why would He desire the salvation of men He infallibly knows won't be saved?

Incorrect, the emphasis is on "all", the literal meaning of the Greek πᾶς translated "whoever". It means "πᾶς all everyone who by his libertarian free will believes":

KJV John 3:15 That whosoever (3956 πᾶς pas) believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

NIV John 3:15 that everyone(3956 πᾶς pas) who believes may have eternal life in him."

MIT John 3:15 so that all(3956 πᾶς pas) who believe in him might have eternal life.

YLT John 3:15 that every one(3956 πᾶς pas) who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

 

[Fastfredy0]

God's plan is so perfect, so complex, shortsighted Arminians and Calvinists just can't fathom it.​

Everyone can't fathom complex plan perfectly. Everyone thinks they comprehend God better than others on a subject; otherwise, they would change their mind.

Libertarian Free Will is a joke.
Libertarian free will maintains that for any choice made, one could always equally have chosen otherwise, or not chosen at all and this is not predetermined by any prior circumstances, our desires or even our affections. In other words, our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature. It is an amoral decision. It is were true that the decision is uninfluenced then logic dictates that 50% of the population would believe ... it would be like tossing a coin, heads or tails. To make matters worse, you can toss the coin every hour or minute or day and Liberation Free Will theory would dictate you changing your mind constantly.

Since God knows who will and who will not believe before a person existed we know Libertarian Free Will is a farce as by definition it is not possible to know what a future Libertarian Free Will decision will be.

Libertarian free will is something from nothing, which is irrational. The Bible makes it clear that we choose out of our desires. A wicked desire produces wicked choices and wicked actions. A godly desire produces godly deeds. R.C. Sproul

 

[Alfred Persson]

God's plan is so perfect, so complex, shortsighted Arminians and Calvinists just can't fathom it.​

Everyone can't fathom complex plan perfectly. Everyone thinks they comprehend God better than others on a subject; otherwise, they would change their mind.

Libertarian Free Will is a joke.
Libertarian free will maintains that for any choice made, one could always equally have chosen otherwise, or not chosen at all and this is not predetermined by any prior circumstances, our desires or even our affections. In other words, our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature. It is an amoral decision. It is were true that the decision is uninfluenced then logic dictates that 50% of the population would believe ... it would be like tossing a coin, heads or tails. To make matters worse, you can toss the coin every hour or minute or day and Liberation Free Will theory would dictate you changing your mind constantly.

Since God knows who will and who will not believe before a person existed we know Libertarian Free Will is a farce as by definition it is not possible to know what a future Libertarian Free Will decision will be.

Libertarian free will is something from nothing, which is irrational. The Bible makes it clear that we choose out of our desires. A wicked desire produces wicked choices and wicked actions. A godly desire produces godly deeds. R.C. Sproul

I never claimed our free will is truly free of impediment NOW in our fallen state. I claimed at the moment God reveals the light of Christ He enables our free will to be "libertarian free will". That it subsequently drops back into its fallen state is irrelevant immaterial and incompetent.

Without God's grace granting us that "time to choose", we wouldn't have it because of our fallen "depraved" condition. AND if that moment doesn't occur while alive, it happens after one is dead (1 Pet. 4:6).

Everyone is shown the light of Christ and granted the opportunity to believe, EXCEPT those who commit eternal sins.

God's Spirit calls, convicts, empowers the free will. But that occurs in a moment in time. Once it ends, the "normal" fallen nature condition affecting free will resumes.

 

[Free]

Everyone is shown the light of Christ and granted the opportunity to believe, EXCEPT those who commit eternal sins.

Be careful in making the Bible say more than it does without clearly stating that it as your opinion.

 

[miamited]

HI Alfred Persson

While I agree that God's plan is perfect, it really isn't complex. God created us. We all have become sinners. The judgment on sinners is death. But God gave us an out. Jesus. His new covenant with all mankind is that if we will believe in and submit to His Son, He will give us eternal life with His Son.

It's not really complex, but it causes many to stop and consider if it's worth it to live the pure life that God asks of us, the one that His Son lived while he was with us... or to continue as we are going? Jesus made it plain. There are two ways to live. There are only two ways to live.

Now that's discussing God's plan. On the other hand, understanding God and His will and His ways and His wonderful works in creating this realm in which we live, can be pretty complex and I honestly doubt that most of us really get it down to the nth degree.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Be careful in making the Bible say more than it does without clearly stating that it as your opinion.

If someone promised everyone "xyz" could be theirs if they did "abc", but only those selected would receive it, they would prosecuted for fraud:

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; (Deut. 30:19 NKJ)

14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. (Jn. 3:14-15 NKJ)

God's offer is genuinely available to all. We know that because God does not lie.

It is irrelevant immaterial and incompetent it was found some were selected (elected, predestined) to make the right choice for life, as long as those not selected were not denied the opportunity to also choose life.

IN fact, the passages that reveal God convicts human consciences of their need bringing them to the point of decision with revelation that He is and the rewarder of those earnestly seeking Him, implies God gracefully "puts His finger on the scale" in favor of the non-elect choosing life.

That many of them do not is their own free will choice.

 

[Alfred Persson]

HI Alfred Persson

While I agree that God's plan is perfect, it really isn't complex. God created us. We all have become sinners. The judgment on sinners is death. But God gave us an out. Jesus. His new covenant with all mankind is that if we will believe in and submit to His Son, He will give us eternal life with His Son.

It's not really complex, but it causes many to stop and consider if it's worth it to live the pure life that God asks of us, the one that His Son lived while he was with us... or to continue as we are going? Jesus made it plain. There are two ways to live. There are only two ways to live.

Now that's discussing God's plan. On the other hand, understanding God and His will and His ways and His wonderful works in creating this realm in which we live, can be pretty complex and I honestly doubt that most of us really get it down to the nth degree.

We are in agreement. I can only add this. God could not predestine everyone be saved because that would violate the free will of those who desire evil.

Nor could God create a world where evil was not permitted. The inhabitants would conclude they were mere robots and "love" just an illusion.

Therefore, in order for genuine free will beings who love God for Who He is to exist, God had to endure with much long suffering vessals that PREPARED THEMSELVES to receve the wrath of God:


22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He says also in Hosea: "I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved."
26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,`You are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God." (Rom. 9:22-26 NKJ)

QUESTION—Who is the implied agent of the participle κατηρτισμένα ‘prepared’?
1. God prepared them for destruction [BECNT, Ho, Mu, NICNT, WBC]. God prepared them for destruction, but that does not mean that he created them for destruction [Ho, WBC].
2. They prepared themselves [Mor, NAC, NTC, St]. They did it themselves with Satan’s help [Mor, NTC]. Their lives and conduct have determined their destiny [NAC]. They prepare themselves for destruction by their own evil doing [St].-Abernathy, D. (2009). An Exegetical Summary of Romans 9–16 (p. 52). SIL International.

 

[Fastfredy0]

We always chose according to our desires. We cannot chose our desires. To chose one's desire requires a reason to do so but as a newly created being you have no reason (desires) to chose anything. Thus, your desires are dependent on Another.

"In Him we live and breathe and have our being".

 

[Alfred Persson]

We always chose according to our desires. We cannot chose our desires. To chose one's desire requires a reason to do so but as a newly created being you have no reason (desires) to chose anything. Thus, your desires are dependent on Another.

"In Him we live and breathe and have our being".

I don't agree. Many desire foods that would make them fat, but use their free will and discipline themselves to be skinny. Etc.

Free Will's existence is implied by God's command we choose whom we will serve. Otherwise God is a fraudster. Therefore, your arguments against the existence of free will fail the test of reality.

As for our existence within God, which is analgous to being in a Matrix, free will still exists. The theological term "concurrence" explains it. As in the movie "The Matrix" the characters actions were determined by the characters themselves, even though the Matrix made the actions "real" to all in the Matrix.

"More specifically, concurrence holds that while God is the ultimate cause of everything that happens (the "first cause"), human beings and other creatures also operate as secondary causes. These secondary causes genuinely act according to their own nature, but they do so within the framework of God's overarching sovereignty and sustaining power.

In this sense, all actions or events are said to "materialize" or come to pass due to God's providential will and power, yet God is not the direct cause of every specific action in a way that would violate creaturely freedom or the nature of the secondary cause. God upholds and sustains the existence and capacities of secondary agents, like humans, allowing them to act freely and meaningfully, but He concurrently directs all things according to His divine plan.

In this view, God's concurrence involves His:

• Sustaining power, which upholds all things.
• Permission, allowing secondary causes (e.g., human free will) to act.
• Guidance, ensuring that even human decisions and natural processes work according to His divine will.-ChatGPT"

Spare me the "that's ChatGPT" nonesense, its in major Systematic Theologies of the reformation.

 

[Whatever]

Incorrect, the emphasis is on "all", the literal meaning of the Greek πᾶς translated "whoever". It means "πᾶς all everyone who by his libertarian free will believes":

But you have to add the "by libertarian free will" believes. It simply says "all those who believe should not perish."

The question is why do some believe and others do not.

 

[Alfred Persson]

But you have to add the "by libertarian free will" believes. It simply says "all those who believe should not perish."

The question is why do some believe and others do not.

I added it only because you did, in effect using your own terms. In literture, when asked for belief on xyz, it goes without adding "are you believing by your own free will choice?"

"Libertarian free will" does not have to be added. It was only because you did.

As for why some believe and others do not, that's free will in action. Choice. Could be thousands of reasons, could be someone just doesn't want to believe. They think themselves better off not believing.

 

[miamited]

Hey Alfred Persson

God could not predestine everyone be saved because that would violate the free will of those who desire evil.

I agree. God did predestine some to be saved. He predestined that all those whoevers that would believe in His Son and thus gain eternal life. God predestined that clear back before the foundations of the earth were set in place. If we believe what God told Adam and Eve about the coming struggle against sin and righteousness and the outcome of the one whose heal is nipped and the one whose head is crushed, then we know that God already had this way of salvation planned from the very beginning. And when He knew His plan of salvation that He would send into the peoples of the earth, He predestined that those who would believe what He told them about the reality of life and how to live it to please Him, would be saved. So, from the beginning, all of those who were ever going to believe in Jesus were predestined to eternal life.

 

[Fastfredy0]

As for why some believe and others do not, that's free will in action.

Agreed. Free Will is the ability to do what you desire most at the time. Unless God changes your desire (regeneration) man's Free Will always chooses to not believe for "no one seeks God" and unregenerated people are slaves of sin and sons of Satan.

 

[Free]

Calvin and Arminius are like two shortsighted observers who can barely see only half of the elephant. One can see only the head to the middle of its body, the other only the tail to the middle of its body. So both agree what an Elephant's torso looks like, but fight tooth and nail when describing what the entire elephant looks like.

Sherlock Holmes would grasp the error immediately, and put the testimony of both together and draw the full picture of an elephant accurately, with both Head and Tail.

But not Arminians and Calvinists. They rant and rave how "blind" the other guy is.

And then there are those individuals who rant and rave about how everyone but him is blind. Not really a great look.

This entire discussion is moot anyway. In the end, when all is said and done, those who are saved will be those who are saved, regardless of whether it was entirely their choice or whether it was entirely God's choice. The end result will be the same. In the meantime, Christians are supposed to be focused on going and making disciples of all nations, regardless of what they believe about this issue.

 

[Alfred Persson]

And then there are those individuals who rant and rave about how everyone but him is blind. Not really a great look.

This entire discussion is moot anyway. In the end, when all is said and done, those who are saved will be those who are saved, regardless of whether it was entirely their choice or whether it was entirely God's choice. The end result will be the same. In the meantime, Christians are supposed to be focused on going and making disciples of all nations, regardless of what they believe about this issue.

Not irrelevant. Some of the most effective enemies of Christ became enemies because God was portrayed as Sovereignly selecting those whom He would bless, and those whom He would curse, without any consideration about those invovlved at all.

In other words, God was depicted as unloving, unjust but it was our fault we didn't see the Justice and Love manifest in Election and Reprobation for reasons unknown.

If one isn't shortshighted, the paradox of free will and election is easily resolved. But like the Pharisees, the great reformers refused to accept all the data as true, and be like Sherlock Holmes to discern the entire truth.

Once a Christian Pharisee has chosen whether they believe Arminius or Calvin, then its "ignore the rocks, full speed ahead." No scripture cited against their side is permitted to be true, no matter how clear and evident the scripture cited is.

And so the shortsighted debate goes on and on.

Arminius is holding the tail and can't be convinced the tail and hind don't exist, he sees both clearly. Calvin is holding the head and trunk and cannot be convinced these don't exist, he sees both clearly.

Neither will ponder the possibility BOTH are seeing Scripture correctly, just different ends of the elephant. Neither has the ability to solve riddles, infer from minor detail what caused the detail to exist, like Sherlock Holmes. They are shortsighted. Cognitive dissonance doesn't permit they rise above their shortcomings.

And anyone who tries to call attention to the obvious shortsightedness of their beliefs, is deemed heretical.

In an the age of the great falling away, heretical might be orthodoxy....the irony.

 

[Fastfredy0]

when all is said and done, those who are saved will be those who are saved, regardless of whether it was entirely their choice or whether it was entirely God's choice.

Agreed, the result is the same, God knows His sheep from all eternity. On the other hand, if the Arminians are correct then they are responsible for their own salvation. They must search and find the method of salvation and then self-determine whether to believe their findings or not believe. It's all on them to "work" to control the situation and to cause God to adopt them as sons; to share in God's glory. If they are correct, I say "well done" to them as there are few that enter the narrow gate as you have.
Aside: WORK is defined as a physical or mental activity to accomplish a purpose

Calvinists on the other hand are completely useless except as tools the be used by God to accomplish His purpose. It facilitates humbleness because they know they're causal efforts or pointless. They depend on another to transform them; they have no power of their own and as a result will not share in God's glory.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God was portrayed as Sovereignly selecting those whom He would bless, and those whom He would curse

Imagine that, God in control. Arminians know they control God when it comes to their salvation. Unless humans where the parents chose to adopt a child, under Arminianism the child adopts the parent (God). Praise the Arminian child of God for what he has done. It is foolish to think that the Potter should always fashion the clay... there are exceptions.
*giggle*

In other words, God was depicted as unloving, unjust but it was our fault we didn't see the Justice and Love manifest in Election and Reprobation for reasons unknown.

Yes, the Arminian position does not find God to be unloving by their definition save for those who cannot be saved by faith because they lived and died having never heard of Christ which is the necessary foundation of saving faith. Yes, Arminians believe God loves the sons of Satan and desires their highest good.
Definition of Agape (love): it refers to a pure, willful, sacrificial love that intentionally desires another’s highest good."

I'm curious Alfred Persson ... which denomination has the the 'most' truth? Your identify as a "free will Reformed Baptist" which usefully is a contradiction of terms in most minds as Reformed Baptist do not believe one determines his own salvation independent of God.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I'm curious Alfred Persson ... which denomination has the the 'most' truth? Your identify as a "free will Reformed Baptist" which usefully is a contradiction of terms in most minds as Reformed Baptist do not believe one determines his own salvation independent of God.

If my memory is accurate the late Walter Martin reported Seminary students concluded Protestant and Catholic beliefrs were in 70% agreement overall. It was much higher when only what is taught in scripture was compared. Near 90%. Although that seems too high, it doesn't mean everyone applies the truth they see to the church in the same way.

I don't believe any are best, hence the "contradiction" in my profile. None of them have a lock on the truth, all are in Christ which makes them part of the body of Christ. Each built on that foundation with different materials, some good and some bad. The fire of God's inspection will test everyone's building:

10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
(1 Cor. 3:10-15 NKJ)

Perhaps Reformed Baptist has had the most influence on me, but the days when I could refer to the Westminister Confession as everything I believe are gone.