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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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God's plan is so perfect, so complex, shortsighted Arminians and Calvinists just can't fathom it.
- Thread starter Alfred Persson
- Start date
I added it because that is the way non-Calvinists read it.
Whosoever believes.
There is a song in the Celebration Hymnal titled: "whosoever means even me."
Again, the emphasis is on the "whosoever" as in "any autonomous person using their free will."
But the Father did not sent the Son to save "whosoever's." He came to save believers. And that does not mean even me if I don't believe.
It also does not include all the Jews that God blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts that John writes about in John 12:37-40. They could not have been part of those "whosoever."
Seems like a highly subjective measurement that could be easily skewed. For example, Catholics and protestants could agree that Christ had 10 fingers on two hands and and not agree upon the concept of purgatory. That would be 12 points of agreement (2 hand and 10 fingers) and one point of disagreement for a total of 93% agreement. The point I am making is that the survey mixes apples and oranges and could be easily skewed depending on the surveys definition and goal.
I definitely agree there is a wide variance of opinion on many matters. I know I get some things wrong but I have little idea what they are for if I did I would officially change my mind. I pray for forgiveness for the unknown things I get wrong.
If God did not violate our free will, none of us would be saved.
Anyways, question...
John 10:11,15 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep...15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."(not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33);
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
Should Jesus have said, "you are not my sheep because you don't believe".?
Important: Do you believe that in the Bible, words like "all" and "world" and "every man" always mean every last single thing or person unless specifically limited (e.g. 1 John 3:3) Or do you recognize that sometimes in the Bible, words like "all" means "all kinds of" (1 Timothy 6:10) and "world" means Gentiles as opposed to Jews only (John 12:19-20) and "every man" means "every kind of man" (Acts 4:35/1 Corinthians 7:2) without any specific mention of a limitation?
Dave
Anyways, question...
John 10:11,15 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep...15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."(not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33);
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
Should Jesus have said, "you are not my sheep because you don't believe".?
Important: Do you believe that in the Bible, words like "all" and "world" and "every man" always mean every last single thing or person unless specifically limited (e.g. 1 John 3:3) Or do you recognize that sometimes in the Bible, words like "all" means "all kinds of" (1 Timothy 6:10) and "world" means Gentiles as opposed to Jews only (John 12:19-20) and "every man" means "every kind of man" (Acts 4:35/1 Corinthians 7:2) without any specific mention of a limitation?
Dave
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Perhaps. Waltar Martin wasn't a fan of Roman Catholics, he called it apostate backslidden.
DR. WALTER MARTIN SPEAKS ON THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
As one who has been studying the origin of the Bible, apologetics and Comparative Religion for the better part of twenty-one years I had the privilege of being led of the Lord to the excellent defe…
www.apprising.org
I don't recall the study Title or who did it and how, but Walter Martin was citing it to defeat the argument the Bible can't be reliably interpreted by those who profess sola scriptura.
Our differences in interpretation were being used against us.
But the study showed if exegesis alone is considered, Bible scholars arrive at similar understanding well above 80% and in the less obscure truths 90%. But that doesn't mean they apply it to their churches the same. For example,most agree Paul says women should have a head covering when praying, but not all would say that applies now. Some believe that was cultural, others that long hair is a head covering.
Paul doesn't question the ultimate salvation of those who build on the one and only foundation of Christ, with different materials (= doctrines). Only that rewards are different, and those who built with straw might have so many rewards taken away, it will be as though they escaped a burning house with only the clothes on their back:
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:10-15 NKJ)
I do the same as you, pray I get it right. Notice my statement below, ONLY the Bible is 100% true, not me or anyone else.
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I would disagree with that Dave... As I understand the gospel, Jesus has sent people out to preach it. Whether or not it is received and acted upon is one's free will... but God does know the heart and He knows those who are ready to willingly give up their will for His will. For those, the Spirit can gently call, but it still has to be a free will choice to repent and follow the Lord. I personally, don't see that as a violation of our free will.
That interpretation is impossible. Context emphasises "everyone in the world who believes", implying "some" went from unbelief to belief:
14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. (Jn. 3:14-17 NKJ)
God's love is for the entire world, that those who turn to belief in it "might be saved".
Maybe another way to look at it is that God is sovereign over your free will. Jesus is the Author and finisher of my faith.
This is one of the many things that God overcame in me to save me.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Dave
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Hi Dave...
Yes, and do you know what happened in you when you believed the testimony and finished work of Jesus? You received the Holy Spirit. Now God has sovereignty over your free will.
It is a true statement. It's up to Jesus as to what He decides to say.
The crux of the matter is "what is the cause of the sheep believing and the goats to not believe". The result of the cause is that the sheep believe and the goats do not believe.
If "free will" is defined as the ability to believe leading to salvation that is uninfluenced by God then either God is not sovereign regarding saving faith or man does not have free will. In either case the statement cannot be true.
The following verses indicates man does not have free will as I defined it above.
Well, given the amount of disagreement it is empirically proven that Bible interpretation has not been perfected. That does not prove that the sole source of theological truth is not the Bible; just that most men can't interpret the sole proof (the bible) infallibly.
True to a point. Some doctrine must be believed or you are "toast". So, I am sure one can believe whether or not he believes Christ has blue eyes or not...but if one believes Christ is not God then you're salvific foundation is questionable.
Total agreement.
To a degree the more you study to be approved the more you potentially get wrong as for example ... someone who knows only 10 things might get 5 wrong because he did not study further while the guy that studies might know 100 things and get 20 wrong. (wild numbers from no where to make a curious point)
Of course, the guy that doesn't study much will get more wrong than the studying person if both are given 100 questions (usually).... end of mindless meandering *giggle*
The Bible teaches man is dead in sin.
The unregenerate cannot choose God.
They do not even seek after God.
Rom 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
Rom 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Rom 3:12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
Rom 3:13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING," "THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
Rom 3:14 "WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
Rom 3:15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
Rom 3:17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
Rom 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."
The only way humans can believe is by the gift of faith given by God.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
God did not look down the corridors of time and said I know vinny bag of donuts will chooce salvation for himself.
The Lord chose (predestined) His elect before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Rom 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
You're looking at the "sheep" as the result, not the cause. I disagree.
They believe because they are His sheep. They do not believe, because they are not his sheep. That's the cause.
Man is a slave to sin. The Bible defines freedom as the ability to not sin. The natural man does not have that ability.
To the tune of Amazing Grace.
Arminian “grace!” How strange the sound,
Salvation hinged on me.
I once was lost then turned around,
Was blind then chose to see.
What “grace” is it that calls for choice,
Made from some good within?
That part that wills to heed God’s voice,
Proved stronger than my sin.
Thru many ardent gospel pleas,
I sat with heart of stone.
But then some hidden good in me,
Propelled me toward my home.
When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Because of what we’ve done,
We’ve no less days to sing our praise,
Than when we first begun.
Arminian “grace!” How strange the sound,
Salvation hinged on me.
I once was lost then turned around,
Was blind then chose to see.
What “grace” is it that calls for choice,
Made from some good within?
That part that wills to heed God’s voice,
Proved stronger than my sin.
Thru many ardent gospel pleas,
I sat with heart of stone.
But then some hidden good in me,
Propelled me toward my home.
When we’ve been there ten thousand years,
Because of what we’ve done,
We’ve no less days to sing our praise,
Than when we first begun.
Yes, no problem. I went from unbelief to belief.
The sheep are not born believing. They might even go most of their lives in unbelief. Paul is a good example:
Gal 1:14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me
Paul who was separated by God from his mother's womb, was in unbelief and even persecuted the Church. But when it pleased God to reveal His Son to him (sometime in adulthood) he was born again. Then Paul says he didn't even bother to go visit Peter in Jerusalem for 3 years.
God chooses those He wants to save beforehand. Then in time the Holy Spirit works in each one of them at God's timing to bring them to faith.
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
John 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
Every commentator I have read agree that Jesus is talking about us - people way in the future not even born.
He calls them sheep, not goats who will turn into sheep when they believe. He says they will hear. They can't help but hear because "My sheep hear My voice."
I reject Roman Catholicism not so much on the basis of interpreting Scripture but on the basis of all the unbiblical junk they teach that isn't in the Scripture.
I see Roman Catholicism as the New Covenant equivalent of apostate Judaism in Jesus time.
Mat 15:9 AND IN VAIN THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.' "
But the world is saved.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
Rom 8:21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
The world will be saved in the end. But many people will be lost.`
Hey Dave... I don't think so:
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
From reading you other posts I think we are in agreement and we disagree on this point do to semantics.
Simply put: Regeneration precedes faith in logical order.
Agreed save I don't know where the bible defines "freedom" as the ability to not sin. If that is true then no man is free (till he dies) as all men continue to sin, though not as much for believers.