[_ Old Earth _] God's Role In Evolution?

[Hospes]

Question born of curiosity asked to any Christian who has accepted all living things, including man, is the result of a long progression of evolutionary events:

What role, if any, did God play in the progression?​

More broadly, I guess I am wondering what impact does such a worldview have on a Christian's concept of God.

[I write on this forum maybe once a day, so please be ready for slow responses.]

 

[Knotical]

Evolution is a theory developed by man to try to explain what has already been explained, by taking God out of the equation. God created everything in this universe and did not employ anything like evolution to do it.

 

[Edward]

A lot of christians believe that God created everything...but that He had to create them in a way that they would evolve, presumably so the different species could work the bugs out of their being where God was unable to get it right...or something like that, lol.

I dunno, but it seems to me that God could do it right the first time. But these worldly christians are really good at making absurdities seem plausible, with scientific double talk and tangents which lead away from God.

But study this fossil, consider the dna and how it mutated to evolve into a more proper being than Gods creation itself... Da da da, read this man's paper where He explains where God got it wrong...

Tangents designed to confuse and instill doubt. To take your time which should be used to study God's Word, and get you thinking carnally.

The real deal is in the Word. We're not of this world, and to engage worldly concepts is to turn your back on God and admit disbelief.

You either belong to Christ or you don't. Put aside worldly ways and teachings and seek the Kingdom of God first and only. Have faith and fully trust your God. We don't need to be able to fully understand God in order to trust & have faith. When you do, you can laugh at the world and their lame positions of God isn't really God and this fossil proves it...uh...yeah.

don't fall for the worldly explanations of God didn't create things right. The Word explains everything that we need to know.

 

[Barbarian]

Question born of curiosity asked to any Christian who has accepted all living things, including man, is the result of a long progression of evolutionary events:

What role, if any, did God play in the progression?

What role does God play in any natural process? It is just His way of doing things in this world. If He took His mind from it for an instant, it would not even exist.

More broadly, I guess I am wondering what impact does such a worldview have on a Christian's concept of God.

You might as well ask what impact a gravity worldview has on a Christian's concept of God. Here's one Christian's take on that:

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.
Charles Darwin, last sentence in The Origin of Species

Here's another Christian's view:
And the third problem, of course, is that in some faith traditions, evolution seems to be a threat to the idea that God did it. I don’t actually see it as a threat at all; I see this as answering the question of how God did it. But certainly, some conservative Christian churches have had trouble embracing that conclusion, as it does seem to contradict a number of their views about how humanity came to be. Thus, people who have natural skepticism about the overall process, who have not had a decent science education to teach them why evolution actually makes sense and who have heard in Sunday school or from the pulpit that this theory is actually a threat to their faith, have a very hard time accepting, even after 150 years, that evolution is true.
Francis Collins, former director of the Human Genome project.

And another:
Knowing more about God's creation has enriched and confirmed my faith in Him. The more I see of the elegance and order in His creation, the more in awe I am of His power and Wisdom. This is what St. Paul meant when he wrote:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

Understanding these "invisible things, clearly seen" can only make one's faith stronger. It is a tragedy in modern times, that so many Christians have turned away from St. Paul's words and God's created things.
The Barbarian

 

[Barbarian]

A lot of christians believe that God created everything...but that He had to create them in a way that they would evolve, presumably so the different species could work the bugs out of their being where God was unable to get it right...or something like that, lol.

Sort of a metaphor for the way He made us, and how we're working the bugs out? Maybe. But I do notice that engineers are now discovering that evolutionary processes work more efficiently at solving very difficult problems, than design works. These genetic algorithms demonstrate that God once more, knew better than we do.

I dunno, but it seems to me that God could do it right the first time.

Those engineers unwittingly demonstrated that He did.

 

[Hospes]

First, thanks for responding, being you are in the questions' target group.

What role does God play in any natural process?

I asked first! (I assume you are just restating my question and not actually asking a question.)

It is just His way of doing things in this world. If He took His mind from it for an instant, it would not even exist.

If it is sustained by God, do you think he necessarily wills every mutation?

You might as well ask what impact a gravity worldview has on a Christian's concept of God.

Let's avoid silly.

Knowing more about God's creation has enriched and confirmed my faith in Him. The more I see of the elegance and order in His creation, the more in awe I am of His power and Wisdom. This is what St. Paul meant when he wrote:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

Understanding these "invisible things, clearly seen" can only make one's faith stronger. It is a tragedy in modern times, that so many Christians have turned away from St. Paul's words and God's created things.

Agreed: I find understanding and joy in the glory of God permeating his creation.

Your allusion in the last sentence needs clarity; specifically, how have so many turned away from Paul and God's creation? Surely you do not believe it is necessary for a person to support the theory of evolution to be able to see attributes of God in His creation, and thus be left without excuse for not acknowledging him as God? (BTW, what translation did you use for the Romans passage?)

A related question: in the Incarnation, was the "natural process" get disrupted?

I realize you have no reason to think I am asking questions in good faith, but I am. Most evolutionist appear to use evolution as a hiding place from the knowledge of God and it is my first opportunity to question an evolutionary Christian regarding matters of faith.

 

[Barbarian]

First, thanks for responding, being you are in the questions' target group.
I asked first! (I assume you are just restating my question and not actually asking a question.)

If it is sustained by God, do you think he necessarily wills every mutation?

Every subatomic particle, every unit of space, is maintained by God. Nothing in this world would even exist if He ceased to tend to it. This is not to say that chance has no place in His intent. As St. Thomas Aquinas noted, God can use contingency just as easily as He can use necessity in His divine providence.

Barbarian observes:
You might as well ask what impact a gravity worldview has on a Christian's concept of God.

Let's avoid silly.

Yes, we should have. Gravity is different because no one feels threatened if gravity is a fact.

Barbarian observes:
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

Understanding these "invisible things, clearly seen" can only make one's faith stronger. It is a tragedy in modern times, that so many Christians have turned away from St. Paul's words and God's created things.

Agreed: I find understanding and joy in the glory of God permeating his creation.

Your allusion in the last sentence needs clarity; specifically, how have so many turned away from Paul and God's creation?

Those who have tried to make Genesis into a literal history.

Surely you do not believe it is necessary for a person to support the theory of evolution to be able to see attributes of God in His creation, and thus be left without excuse for not acknowledging him as God?

The more one understands how that creation unfolded, the more one can appreciate the power and majesty of God. It doesn't mean creationists don't acknowledge Him as God. It merely means they are unnecessarily limiting themselves in knowing Him.

(BTW, what translation did you use for the Romans passage?)[/quote]

Douay.

A related question: in the Incarnation, was the "natural process" get disrupted?

Miracles exist and are part of God's activity in the world. They are done not because He couldn't do it naturally, but because it is intended to teach us something.

I realize you have no reason to think I am asking questions in good faith, but I am. Most evolutionist appear to use evolution as a hiding place from the knowledge of God and it is my first opportunity to question an evolutionary Christian regarding matters of faith.

I assume you are asking in good faith.

 

[Free]

Question born of curiosity asked to any Christian who has accepted all living things, including man, is the result of a long progression of evolutionary events:

What role, if any, did God play in the progression?​

More broadly, I guess I am wondering what impact does such a worldview have on a Christian's concept of God.

[I write on this forum maybe once a day, so please be ready for slow responses.]

If evolution is true, God would have had to start the process and provide the information necessary for things to unfold the way he intended. He could also have injected or added more information at certain points or to certain processes to steer things in certain directions, such as with the so-called "Cambrian Explosion." It really isn't a whole lot different than a computer programmer and a program he writes.

We know that God intervenes in the world to cause events to go the way he wills, so I don't see why it would be any different with a process such as evolution.

 

[Barbarian]

We know that God intervenes in the world to cause events to go the way he wills, so I don't see why it would be any different with a process such as evolution.

That is the position of Michael Behe, who recognizes that evolution is a fact, but argues that God must step in from time to time, to make certain things evolve. I don't see any evidence for that; the same processes seem to have always been in play. Still, it's impossible to disprove that idea.

 

[Hospes]

If evolution is true, God would have had to start the process and provide the information necessary for things to unfold the way he intended. He could also have injected or added more information at certain points or to certain processes to steer things in certain directions, such as with the so-called "Cambrian Explosion." It really isn't a whole lot different than a computer programmer and a program he writes.

We know that God intervenes in the world to cause events to go the way he wills, so I don't see why it would be any different with a process such as evolution.

Sounds about 90% deistic. I prefer Barbarian's statement of "If He took His mind from it for an instant, it would not even exist." Fits much better with "For by him [Jesus] all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." (Colossians 1:16-17 ESV)

 

[Hospes]

Gravity is different because no one feels threatened if gravity is a fact.

Is evolution as nailed down as "fact" as gravity? That would be news to me. There is mystery in gravity and there is more mystery in evolution. Also, to draw equivalence between the two is ridiculous. Is there gravitationary biology, gravitationary psychology, or gravitationary economics? Obviously, evolutionary theory is much more broadly applied than the theory of gravity and have vastly different impacts in forming a worldview. Making equivalence may provide opportunity to attribute irrational fear to those who do not agree with you, but it does look silly.

It is a tragedy in modern times, that so many Christians [those who have tried to make Genesis into a literal history] have turned away from St. Paul's words and God's created things...It doesn't mean creationists don't acknowledge Him as God. It merely means they are unnecessarily limiting themselves in knowing Him.

Turning "away from St. Paul's words and God's created things" is a pretty major charge against a fellow believer. "Unnecessarily limiting themselves in knowing Him" is better, but still pretty far off. Personally, I am not sure of the mechanism God used to create everything, but even in my lack of understanding, I have not found it limiting to my ability to know and enjoy the richness of my God in creation. I find it difficult to see how believing in evolution will heighten my seeing and enjoying God in the intricacies of an evening primrose or the sight of snow pouring over the lip of Grand Canyon. It's not as if his glory is a limited quantity; we may miss a bit due to lack of knowledge, but I am convinced even without that "bit", there is more than sufficiency for us in what has yet to be tapped.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Gravity is different because no one feels threatened if gravity is a fact.

Is evolution as nailed down as "fact" as gravity?

Actually, it's more certain. We can directly observe each of these phenomena, but we know why evolution works, while we still aren't quite sure why gravity works.

[quote\That would be news to me.[/quote]

From the 80s on, science education has been lacking in many states. It's unfortunate, but many people have never even learned what evolutionary theory is.

There is mystery in gravity and there is more mystery in evolution.

We understand all things in nature, only partially. But gravity's causes are still less understood than evolution.

Is there gravitationary biology,

Gravitational physics. Gravitational planetology. Etc.

Obviously, evolutionary theory is much more broadly applied than the theory of gravity

Doesn't seem so. Never heard of "evolutionary economics."
(Barbarian checks)
Ah, not part of evolutionary theory. It's just the attempt, by some economists, to increase precision in economic analysis by applying evolutionary concepts to it. The fact that few economists buy into it suggests that it's not a good idea. More effect are "genetic algorithms, in which engineers apply evolutionary mechanisms to solve problems that are difficult or impossible to solve by design.

Those, probably because they are more similar to biological systems, are very useful. They are now being used effectively to improve all sorts of devices and operations.
http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~nd/surprise_96/journal/vol1/hmw/article1.html

and have vastly different impacts in forming a worldview.

I have never met a biologist with an "evolutionary worldview." It's far too limited in scope to do that.

Making equivalence may provide opportunity to attribute irrational fear to those who do not agree with you, but it does look silly.

I think you just proved my point for me.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Question born of curiosity asked to any Christian who has accepted all living things, including man, is the result of a long progression of evolutionary events:

What role, if any, did God play in the progression?​

More broadly, I guess I am wondering what impact does such a worldview have on a Christian's concept of God.

[I write on this forum maybe once a day, so please be ready for slow responses.]

This might not be a response for your target group, but I think I'm close to the target group. Someone who hasn't accepted or rejected the theories and studies that are under the scope of evolution. Unsure.

That said there are a few thing I can say. Though I'm having trouble finding the right verses, I thought there was a perspective that says "all things change, but the word of the Lord lasts forever." So far in my search for the verse that I though said this, I found one that says that both heaven and earth shall pass but the word my words (Jesus speaking) will not pass away.

While so far I can't find the verse or verses that point to the perspective that all things change, if it is supported bibically, then that can also be justification for evolution.

On the other hand though, the scope of evolution and faith I think has become a very large tripping stone in many people's journeys. Often I see the acceptance or rejection of evolution as a main issue for a person's merrit of being saved, or being a real Christian (however you want to phrase it). And also the acceptance or rejection is used as merrit to judge if a person is educated, intelligent, or brain washed.

In my opinion evolution is a large stumbling block in our faith and our views of God. It's reached out side the scope of whether it's true or not, and has teetered on the grounds of how others see us, how we see ourselves, and how or if we trust God.

To me it is not a salvation issue. It's very broad and many scientific theories can be worded to support evolution. Or can be used to broaden the idea of evolution to another perspective. Such as equating evolution as the strongest survive. Making every feature in any living creature having a survivalist characterist, instead of possibly a design attribute. Or going from biology evolution to behavior and sociatial evolution. It has become too broad a subject matter to let the subject matter involved be under the umbrella of evolution itself. Seperate the voice, and wording of evolution and evolved from many theories and they are fanicating theories that might have a lot of merrit behind them. Others not as much.

 

[Barbarian]

On the other hand though, the scope of evolution and faith I think has become a very large tripping stone in many people's journeys.

Doesn't have to be, but you're right. I can't tell you how many young college students, raised to believe that YE creationism was the only way to be a Christian, have lost their faith when they learned that it couldn't possibly be true. Many were relieved and reassured when they discovered that I was a Christian and when I told them that neither creationism nor evolution was necessary to be a Christian.

Often I see the acceptance or rejection of evolution as a main issue for a person's merrit of being saved, or being a real Christian (however you want to phrase it). And also the acceptance or rejection

That question has nothing whatever to do with one's salvation.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Th

That question has nothing whatever to do with one's salvation.

I agree.