God's Truth In Hidden Texts

[PDoug]

There are those who say the Gospel of Thomas and other Gnostics texts are heretical. They say this because they do not understand them, or they have a vested interest in disparaging these texts. Many people believe the Bible alone contains the word of God. But this cannot be true, because it would mean that nothing people of God have ever said that is not contained in the Bible, but is recorded elsewhere, is true. This would also mean that nothing stated in all the messages in this forum (that aren’t quotations from the Bible) is true as well. If this is the case, what is the point of us being here?

Consider also, does anyone really believe all the worthwhile things Jesus said and did are recorded in the Gospels in the Bible?

John 21

25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

So if not everything Jesus said and did are recorded in the Gospels in the Bible, don’t you think many of them are recorded elsewhere?

Looking at a related matter: in the following scripture, Paul noted that the truth about God can be seen in His creation. This means that a person should be able to look at the hills, trees, stars, animals, etc. and find the truth there.

Romans 1

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitiesâ€â€his eternal power and divine natureâ€â€have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Considering the two points above, we could ask, how can someone discern the truth about God since it is everywhere and not confined to the Bible? Please note the following scripture.

1 Corinthians 2

6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"â€â€
10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"
But we have the mind of Christ.

Verse 15 above indicates that the spiritual man makes judgments about all things. This means it is within the capacity of everyone who genuinely has the Holy Spirit, to discern the truth about all things, which is scattered everywhere. A person therefore who has the Holy Spirit, should be able to take up a text, and judge correctly whether it is of God, and should be able to look around him and deduce the laws of God, and infer truths about God’s creation.

We could ask another question. How do we know that someone really has the Holy Spirit in him? It is by his fruits (Matthew 7:15-21). If a person in a constant fashion shows the fruits of the Spirit within him in his fundamental behavior, that person does in fact have the Holy Spirit. Otherwise that person does not have the Holy Spirit, and texts which are of God will sound like foolishness to him (1 Corinthians 2:14). (Here is how someone can practically bear the fruits of the Spirit within him.)

In this thread, I’m going to be discussing texts such as the Gospel of Thomas which are regarded as Gnostic. It is important to note that I also see nothing wrong with Zoroastrian texts, as well as many other texts not considered Gnostic. (It is a fact that all these texts and the Bible corroborate each other.)

 

[cyberjosh]

There are those who say the Gospel of Thomas and other Gnostics texts are heretical. They say this because they do not understand them, or they have a vested interest in disparaging these texts. Many people believe the Bible alone contains the word of God. But this cannot be true, because it would mean that nothing people of God have ever said that is not contained in the Bible, but is recorded elsewhere, is true. This would also mean that nothing stated in all the messages in this forum (that aren’t quotations from the Bible) is true as well. If this is the case, what is the point of us being here?

Commentary. And not all the commentary here or elsewhere is true. And though I didn't agree with how Georges applied it, he is right in that other people who claimed to be followers of Jesus had their own "spin" to add, thus perverting the original Gospel. Plus the Gnostic Gospels contradict the Bible and not to mention the Apostle John himself combated the Gnostic heresy.

 

[cyberjosh]

Verse 15 above indicates that the spiritual man makes judgments about all things.

Yes and being spiritual those men are commanded to "test the spirits", as to not be decieved because deception can creep in easily as truth under the right guise. There were many proofs including the acknowledgement that Jesus was Lord that were necessary to ascertain truth.

We could ask another question. How do we know that someone really has the Holy Spirit in him? It is by his fruits (Matthew 7:15-21). If a person in a constant fashion shows the fruits of the Spirit within him in his fundamental behavior, that person does in fact have the Holy Spirit. Otherwise that person does not have the Holy Spirit, and texts which are of God will sound like foolishness to him (1 Corinthians 2:14). (Here is how someone can practically bear the fruits of the Spirit within him.)

This clause has nothing to do with the Gnostic gospels, and is irrelevant, as if you had information on the spiritual objectivity of the people who wrote them. You also are right that those who have not the Holy Spirit cannot understand the Bible. And being the beliver in the Bible that I am, having the Holy Spirit in me, I will test the spirits and discern cautiously those things which would claim inspiration outside of the Bible.

 

[PDoug]

This clause has nothing to do with the Gnostic gospels, and is irrelevant, as if you had information on the spiritual objectivity of the people who wrote them. You also are right that those who have not the Holy Spirit cannot understand the Bible. And being the beliver in the Bible that I am, having the Holy Spirit in me, I will test the spirits and discern cautiously those things which would claim inspiration outside of the Bible.

What I wrote is extremely relevant, because if you do not bear the fruits of the Spirit, you cannot possibly appreciate the works of God (because the Spirit is not within you), and you cannot reliably distinguish the truth from untruth. Also it is unnecessary to know the origin of a text to recognize that it is of God. You just will be able to do so. There are a couple of things that will assist you in this area:

1) The language of the writing. Is the writing down to earth and not prideful? Are there details about the writing that show insight into the ways of God, those who don’t have faith tend to overlook? Is there genuine insight into the ways of God in the writing? (I.e. is the writing not just a regurgitation of information found in popular or other scriptures.)

2) Is there harmony between this scripture and the other scriptures you know?

3) Is the writer of the scripture of godly character?

 

[cyberjosh]

What I wrote is extremely relevant, because if you do not bear the fruits of the Spirit, you cannot possibly the appreciate the works of God

And you suppose the Gnostic Gospels are the works of God? Oh yes, insight into even the deep things of God. :roll:

and you cannot reliably distinguish the truth from untruth.

That completely describes me. Yep, clueless. Floating without a paddle.

You just will be able to do so.

Just? Only? Just like that? Hey guys look, Joseph Smith was right after all! I just read it and knew...

The language of the writing. Is the writing down to earth and not prideful? Are there details about the writing that show insight into the ways of God, those who don’t have faith tend to overlook? Is there genuine insight into the ways of God in the writing?

I can find such general principles in Zen Buddism. That doesn't mean it reflects the whole truth. That's what Satan does, twist the truth with a tiny bit of untruth, as he tried to do when tempting Jesus.

Is there harmony between this scripture and the other scriptures you know?

The Gnostic Gospels contradict the canonical Gospels in many places.

Is the writer of the scripture of godly character

I thought you just said the origin of the writing didn't matter...

 

[PDoug]

The following is in response to this message by jgredline, over in the thread, ‘The Virgin Birth.’

Funny, I thought Peter said ''you are the messiah the son of GOD
Jesus got them drunk
So Thomas got some special revelation ha?

Are you serious?

(14) Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will give rise to sin for yourselves; and if you pray, you will be condemned; and if you give alms, you will do harm to your spirits. When you go into any land and walk about in the districts, if they receive you, eat what they will set before you, and heal the sick among them. For what goes into your mouth will not defile you, but that which issues from your mouth - it is that which will defile you."

Please explain what in the world v14 is saying.From what I can see it is saying''"If you fast, you will give rise to sin for yourselves; and if you pray, you will be condemned; and if you give alms, you will do harm to your spirits. '

The above means if you fast, pray, and give alms selfishly like the Pharisees (Matthew 6:5-16), you will do harm to your spirit.

(15) Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, prostrate yourselves on your faces and worship him. That one is your father."

I know this could not be refering to God, because no man has seen God and Jesus was born of a Women, so what does this mean???

All beings ultimately came from the invisible Father. Because He is the source of all things that exist, He was not produced by any other being who functioned as His mother. When you meet Him, you should bow down to Him, because He is your true father.

(30) Jesus said, "Where there are three gods, they are gods. Where there are two or one, I am with him."

Remember all men / women who have faith are gods. Christ was referring to them.

(44) Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven either on earth or in heaven."

This is an oxymoran.....please exlain this to us

See Luke 12:10.

(114) Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life." Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."


Now this is one my favorites
Please explain in detail this to me...From the sounds of it, there will not be women in heaven

The Holy Spirit is a female Angel of Light in men, but a male Angel of Light in women. See scripture below:

Gospel of Philip

As for the unclean spirits, there are males among them and there are females. The males are they which unite with the souls which inhabit a female form, but the females are they which are mingled with those in a male form, through one who was disobedient. And none shall be able to escape them, since they detain him if he does not receive a male power or a female power - the bridegroom and the bride.One receives them from the mirrored bridal chamber. When the wanton women see a male sitting alone, they leap down on him and play with him and defile him. So also the lecherous men, when they see a beautiful woman sitting alone, they persuade her and comple her, wishing to defile her. But if they see the man and his wife sitting beside one another, the female cannot come into the man, nor can the male come into a woman. So if the image and the angel are united with one another, neither can any venture to go into the man or the woman.

A woman who follows Christ will become male on account of the male angel who will unite with her. The male angel resembles the male spirit in a man’s soul.

 

[PDoug]

The following is in response to this message by jgredline, over in the thread, ‘The Virgin Birth.’

Pistis Sophia - Book One
Translated by G.R.S. Mead

Chapter 1

Jesus Hitherto Instructeth His Disciples Only Up To The Regions Of The First Mystery

IT came to pass, when Jesus had risen from the dead, that he passed eleven years discoursing with his disciples, and instructing them only up to the regions of the First Commandment and up to the regions of the First Mystery, that within the Veil, within the First Commandment, which is the four-and-twentieth mystery without and below--those [four-and-twenty] which are in the second space of the First Mystery which is before all mysteries,--the Father in the form of a dove.


Hmmm, while this whole paragraph is false, the bible teaches that Jesus was here for 40 days after his ressurection...So who is right


Actually I can't believe that I read all the way to chapter 13 of this heretical book....It is not worthy of anymore of my time. This is total Garbage.......

The following scripture seems more consistent with what is written is Pistis Sophia.

John 21

25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

 

[PDoug]

And you suppose the Gnostic Gospels are the works of God? Oh yes, insight into even the deep things of God.
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.
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That completely describes me. Yep, clueless. Floating without a paddle.
.
.
.
Just? Only? Just like that? Hey guys look, Joseph Smith was right after all! I just read it and knew...
.
.
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I can find such general principles in Zen Buddism. That doesn't mean it reflects the whole truth. That's what Satan does, twist the truth with a tiny bit of untruth, as he tried to do when tempting Jesus.

I don’t know what to say. You keep ignoring the importance of having the Holy Spirit in you to give you judgment capacities. You also keep ignoring the importance of bearing fruit – which is evidence that you do in fact have the Holy Spirit within you.

The Gnostic Gospels contradict the canonical Gospels in many places.

Please show me where.

I thought you just said the origin of the writing didn't matter...

The following is what I said:

“Also it is unnecessary to know the origin of a text to recognize that it is of God.â€Â

I meant that it is not important to know who specifically wrote a text. What is important is that you recognize the character of the writer as godly.

 

[stranger]

Hi PDoug,

Allow me to make a comment without reference to scripture.

The character and fruits of the Spirit should be evident a writers works. For instance we should ask : how does the writer respond to his opponents or enemies?

A Christian man should know what 'love your enemies' means and his writings should reflect this. Inappropriate language from 'Reformers' illustrates this in abundance. Yet writings that are condemned as eg.from the mystics - can display remarkable spiritual maturity and 'love towards the writers enemies'. I totally reject the suggestion that 'those were the times and that's how crude people were back then' as an excuse for ungodly talk.

But what I found to be really disconcerting was that publishing houses take the liberty of editing inappropriate language - thus blindfolding their audience - little wonder that 'posthumous elevation' reaches ever new heights in Christendom.

blessings: stranger

 

[stranger]

I meant that it is not important to know who specifically wrote a text. What is important is that you recognize the character of the writer as godly.

In New Testament - the identity of the writers is fairly well known. There are disputes as to eg the author of Hebrews but consensus does make a ruling 'within the church'. There is an important basis of Apostolic authority here. It is also argued that the church 'recognized' this Apostolic authority in the first few centuries in the canonization process. In other words they didn't decide what was scripture - but recognized what had Apostolic authority and what didn't.

What you say about the spiritual man 'judging all things' is fair enough. The problem arises when two or more such spiritual men get together. I am not being sarcastic here. So individually the issue is not so complicated. But what if the spiritual man in question is the Pastor of a church? How would you go about resolving this conflict? How would you establish Apostolic authority for the writings you refer to?


blessings: stranger

 

[PDoug]

In New Testament - the identity of the writers is fairly well known. There are disputes as to eg the author of Hebrews but consensus does make a ruling 'within the church'. There is an important basis of Apostolic authority here. It is also argued that the church 'recognized' this Apostolic authority in the first few centuries in the canonization process. In other words they didn't decide what was scripture - but recognized what had Apostolic authority and what didn't.

What you say about the spiritual man 'judging all things' is fair enough. The problem arises when two or more such spiritual men get together. I am not being sarcastic here. So individually the issue is not so complicated. But what if the spiritual man in question is the Pastor of a church? How would you go about resolving this conflict? How would you establish Apostolic authority for the writings you refer to?


blessings: stranger

The Book of Enoch is a text that was widely used in the early Church. It is directly quoted in Jude, and is referenced in other books in the Bible. The text says the following.

Book of Enoch

Chapter 90

And I saw till horns grew upon those lambs, and the ravens cast down their horns; and I saw till there sprouted a great horn of one of those sheep, and their eyes 10 were opened. And it looked at [them and] their eyes opened and it cried to the sheep, and the 11 rams saw it and all ran to it. And notwithstanding all this those eagles and vultures and ravens and kites still kept tearing the sheep and swooping down upon them and devouring them: still the sheep remained silent, but the rams lamented and cried out. And those ravens fought and battled with it and sought to lay low its horn, but they had no power over it. All the eagles and vultures and ravens and kites were gathered together, and there came with them all the sheep of the field, yea, they all came together, and helped each other to break that horn of the ram. 19 And I saw till a great sword was given to the sheep, and the sheep proceeded against all the beasts of the field to slay them, and all the beasts and the birds of the heaven fled before their face.

Chapter 93

8 And after that in the sixth week all who live in it shall be blinded,And the hearts of all of them shall godlessly forsake wisdom.

And in it a man shall ascend;And at its close the house of dominion shall be burnt with fire,And the whole race of the chosen root shall be dispersed.

9 And after that in the seventh week shall an apostate generation arise,And many shall be its deeds,And all its deeds shall be apostate.

10 And at its close shall be electedThe elect righteous of the eternal plant of righteousness,To receive sevenfold instruction concerning all His creation.

11For who is there of all the children of men that is able to hear the voice of the Holy One without being troubled ? And who can think His thoughts ? and who is there that can behold all the works 12 of heaven ? And how should there be one who could behold the heaven, and who is there that could understand the things of heaven and see a soul or a spirit and could tell thereof, or ascend and see 13 all their ends and think them or do like them ? And who is there of all men that could know what is the breadth and the length of the earth, and to whom has been shown the measure of all of them ? 14 Or is there any one who could discern the length of the heaven and how great is its height, and upon what it is founded, and how great is the number of the stars, and where all the luminaries rest ?

Please note also the following.

The Aquarian Age Gospel of Jesus, the Christ of the Piscean Age

Chapter 15

22 And now the Day Star from on high begins to shine; and Jesus is the flesh-made messenger to show that light to men. 23 And you, my pupil, you have been ordained to harbinger the coming day. 24 But you must keep that purity of heart you now possess; and you must light your lamp directly from the coals that burn upon the altar of the Holy Ones. 25 And then your lamp will be transmuted to a boundless flame, and you will be a living torch whose light will shine wherever man abides. 26 But in the ages yet to come, man will attain to greater heights, and lights still more intense will come. 27 And then, at last, a mighty master soul will come to earth to light the way up to the throne of perfect man.

I believe all 3 scriptures point to the fact that a man will arise soon, around whom a renewed Church will crystallize. (Zoroastrian texts also point to this fact.) He will be greatly tried – but the trial will be distinctly spiritual (not involving much direct oppression by man.) He will do things that exceed the things that Christ did using a word / sword of power, and there will be others who will do the same. You will know he is not the anti-Christ from his goodness, and he and others will make it known to everyone the mysteries of Creation.

The bulk of the elect will be awakened at this time, and later they will be greatly oppressed, which will trigger a war between the saints who will descend from heaven, and all the wicked spirits that make up or inhabit our material universe. The victory of man over wickedness will occur at this time. All wicked spirits will be stripped out of our universe, and then all the elect will form the only begotten son, and will rule the universe over the bulk of humanity who was not saved – and all other beings. Those humans who are saved in the next age, will form a second tier of gods; and then a last judgment will occur, which will resolve the full hierarchy of man, and all beings on the side of God. The most wicked men, who are not in the Book of Life, will then be thrown into the Lake of Fire, with all the other wicked creatures; and wickedness will not be permitted to exist afterwards. Time will no longer exist either, and creation will then be recreated with vastly greater splendor, through all the men and women who make up the only begotten Son – whose head is Jesus.

Therefore I believe within a few years, there will be an organized, God sanctioned authority, that will sanction texts that are truly of God. Until then, people will have to see if they bear the fruits of the Spirit, and then make their individual or loosely organized judgments about what texts are sound.

 

[cyberjosh]

You keep ignoring the importance of having the Holy Spirit in you to give you judgment capacities. You also keep ignoring the importance of bearing fruit – which is evidence that you do in fact have the Holy Spirit within you.

I don't ignore it at all, and in fact I emphasize it. And you judge me without grounds just to save your precious doctrine. My point is that you are choosing the texts you want and then reading back into it the guidance of the Holy Spirit and I am criticising your poor choice in texts such as the Gnostic Gospels which spew lies and deciet.

 

[PDoug]

I don't ignore it at all, and in fact I emphasize it. And you judge me without grounds just to save your precious doctrine. My point is that you are choosing the texts you want and then reading back into it the guidance of the Holy Spirit and I am criticising your poor choice in texts such as the Gnostic Gospels which spew lies and deciet.

Someone who in fact has the Holy Spirit, bears the fruit of the Spirit (Matthew 7:15-20), and is controlled by the Spirit (Romans 8:9). It is impossible for someone who is strong in the Holy Spirit, to err as you suggest that I'm doing. Everyone should be able to judge for himself or herself, my character, and determine if I in fact have the Holy Spirit. Everyone should be able to do the same thing for you - as well as for everyone else.

 

[Oscar3]

PDOUG
22:18 I testify to the one who hears the words of the prophecy contained in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 22:19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.

 

[mutzrein]

Hey Oscar - what about TOS 9. Refrain from all caps and bold, large fonts.

 

[Oscar3]

Hey Mutz
What about

Doctrinal Statement

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.

We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[mutzrein]

Hey Mutz
What about

Doctrinal Statement

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.

We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Why Oscar, I really didn't think you cared. :wink: Yeah I suppose it was a bit cheeky of me really so I'll let the mods decide what is and isn't acceptable.

From my perspective though, using large bold text is akin to shouting. I find it rude and unnecessary and if others are like me the actual text goes unread - even if there really is a message contained in there somewhere.

Remember, God is found in the still small voice

 

[Oscar3]

:-D