God's word in english is true

[littlelight]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Most Churches that I have been associated with believe the english Bible has translation errors. They preach and teach from it, yet most of them have certain verses that, according to them or their denomination, have to be retranslated to match their belief. Yet other Churches or denominations claim some of those verses are correct yet others are mistranslated. [/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]God has given us over 30 versions of english translations with varying accuracy and each version has differant adheriants claiming their faviorate to be the most accurate. It has been my observation that most translations use differant words to arrive at the same truth. When they disagree there is usually a clear majority that agree in meaning. Most of the time where there are discrepencies it is not in passages that would cause a believer to have a serious misstep. Some translations have used differant manuscripts of the same gospel or epistle that have some verses added or deleted. Of those we are told what verses the oldest and most reliable manuscripts have.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]God knows that in the latter days that there will be men who distort the truth. He has warned us in 2 Timothy 4: 3-4 and in Jude 3-4 of false teachers. Knowing this do you think that God would leave His children in the hands of only those who could discern hidden truths that only a few could read? [/FONT]





[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]I believe that, as far as biblical truth is concerned, there are no errors. For me to consider it an error it has to meet the following criteria.[/FONT]

1. [FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]It is a proven error only if it causes a major negative impact on the believers walk with the Lord. (ex. Some prople claim that Jn 21:16 is in error. They say this because although both agapeo and phileo can mean love, each means a differant kind of love. What major negative impact does not knowing differance between agapeo and phileo have on a believers walk? Therefore; It does not meet my defination of error. No believer would stumble in their walk by not knowing the differance between agapeo and phileo.)[/FONT]
2. [FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Strongs Greek definations are the accepted defination of greek words. However; to be an error there has to be no clear majority in the major translations (out of at least 32). I have not found that to ever happen.[/FONT]
3. [FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]I have confined myself to errors in the New testament. Although all scripture is useful for Christians the new testament is the most important in determining what is expected of he believer.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]My belief is God made a donkey talk and made 120 unlearned believers speak in tongues that people of differant languages could understand; then he could cause the translaters (who in most cases were seeking to do his will) to translate His truth.There is truth and clear doctrine in the english bibles. [/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]In1 Ti 6: 3-5 and 2 Ti 2: 14–16 God gives us a warning concerning those who argue about the meaning of words. The arguement about the meaning of the greek words ended when the translating was finished. To me the meaning of the cited Timothy verses is: If your doctrine is proven by changing the meaning of words then it is a false doctrine. [/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]God has left a witness that can be trusted. In addition to His Spirit, we have his word in the english bible.[/FONT]

 

[littlelight]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Since there seems to be no disagreement on the truth of the Bible then lets deal with some doctrines that require one to deny the plain meaning of some scriptures.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]One doctrine that denies the plain meaning of scripture is the doctrine of repentance prior to salvation. Most denominations have a statement about repentance stating something to the effect that we must repent of our sins. If we don't repent of our sins there is no salvation.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Mk16: 16 and Jn 3:16 states that all who believe in Gods Son will not perish. In Acts 10: 43 all the prophets testified that all who believe on Him will receive remission of sins. From acts 13: 39 those that believe are justified from all things that no one could not be justified from under the law of Moses . Jesus said in Jn 6:28 that to do the works of God one must believe in the one He sent. Seems quite clear to me.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Ro4: 5 we are told that God justifies the ungodly. When one recognizes God's authority they are no longer ungodly. An ungodly person does not accept Gods authority or His laws and they do not repent. In addition the gentiles are not under law (Ro 4:15 and Ro 5:13).However ( Acts 17: 30 ) God calls on all men everywhere to repent. We know that the Jews are under the law. So just what do the gentiles have to repent of?[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Priort to the law there are only 4 reported cases of gentiles that were righteous. Enoch walked with God and was taken away. Noah was righteous and blameless in his time. Job was blameless and feared God. Abram believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.Of these nowhere does it say what they repented of or if they repented at all. None of these were under the law so they didn't have anything under the law to repent of. Of the 4 we are told why one of them was righteous and why he was declared righteous. One thing iscertain they all believed God. [/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Going back to Acts 17: 30 we all have to repent. If its not sin under the law then what is it? We have to repent of the only scripture supported thing that limits Jesus' ability to heal us. Unless we repent of it we are lost and God can't do a thing to heal us.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Throught out the gospels Jesus always relates His healing or miracles to ones belief or faith. Matt 13: 57-58, Mk 6: 4-6 and Mk 9: 24. The scriptures concerning faith are to numerious to list. It is impossible to have faith that you will live eternally unless you believe it's God making the promise and you have to believe what He says applies to you. Once you believe that then the faith comes ( Ro10: 17, Ep 2:8 ). All that you provided was the belief. Untill we repent of unbelief there can be no healing (salvation). [/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Our turning from temporal sins after salvation in most cases is not immediate nor is it always apparient what sins we have to turn from ( Acts 19: 17 – 19, 1 Cor 5: 1-5) . As long as we remain in Him weare made perfect (Heb 10 : 14) and no sin that we commit applies to our eternal salvation. Even so we should repent of those sins we commit while in Jesus. There are temporal consequencies to our unrepentance in the body. [/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]I'm sure that there is at least one point of disagreement for probably most of you on this. In Jas 2: 19 we are told that the demons believe that there is one God and tremble. Just believing there is one God doesn't cut it. Christians aren't righteous by believing there is one God. We believe the one true God when He says if you believe in His Son Jesus you will be saved. [/FONT]

 

[for_his_glory]

It makes no difference what man says is error. Only the Holy Spirit can teach us all truth and also teaches us how to discern that which is truth from error, John 14:26; 1John 4:1-8. If one is allowing man to teach them apart from the Holy Spirit then there is no trust in them.

 

[elijah23]

I suspect most Bibles are good translations.

 

[littlelight]

Several versions really didn't do very good with Rom 8:9-11




From Gal 1:1 we know that it was the Father that raised Jesus from the dead. Now in verse 11 above Paul said “if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you†which means that He may not be in you. In Jn 14:23 Jesus said if we are obedient then both He and the Father would make Their home with us. So if we are obedient we get the Spirit of both the Father and Son (could that be the Spirit of God in verse 9 ?). By 2 Tim 2:13 even if we do not have the Spirit of the Father we are still righteous because we have the Spirit of Jesus.






Now lets go to Rom 8:12-14




If we live according to the flesh we are not obedient we don't have the Spirit of the Father and our body is dead because of sin. If we put our fleshly desires to death we are obedient and we have the Spirit of the Father and He gives life to our mortal bodies.







Recap of Rom 8: 9-14: If we are obedient we have the Spirit of (Father and Son) and are controlled by the Spirit. All true believers have the Spirit of Jesus and due to sin our bodies are dead unless we have the Spirit of the Father . If we are obedient we have the Spirit of the Father and we live. We have an obligation not to live after the flesh because if we do live to the flesh our mortal body dies because we do not have the Spirit of the Father.




There are many of you that will disagree with my explanation. At least one verse that some will think disproves my version is Jas 2:17- 24. But a dead anything implies that at one time whatever is dead was at one time functioning as designed. Example: If you have a dead battery in your car it means that the battery that's there is not doing what it's supposed to do. In the same way faith was there, provided by God(Eph 2:8), that saves the person and now it's not working as God wants it to. So God calls the person home.




This is in agreement with Jn 15:4. When Jesus says a person is “ in me†He is not talking about someone just attending some building or being among believers. He is talking about a true believer. The branch is cut away but not burned as in Jn 15: 6.

 

[littlelight]

1Jn3:9-10 Notice that we cannot continue to sin. If we are in rebellion the Father leaves and we die. Anyone that continues to sin is not a child of God. If he was God would call him home.




So why does it seem like there are so many in Church living in sin? Maybe 1Jn 5:14-17 helps explain it as well as the obvious truth that some if not most may not be true believers.




In 1Jn 5:14-17 we have to determine what death, temporal or eternal, and even though John is referring to a “brother†we will discusswhy it can't be an unbeliever. Whichever it is, by verse 14, it has to be according to God's laws. By God's laws it cannot be eternal life. There is only one way to receive eternal life.




For unbelievers all sin leads to death and this cannot be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as this cannot be forgiven at all. All other sins lead to death so John would not refer to a specific sin that leads to death in reference to unbelievers. .







So he must be talking about true believers. All sins not repented of will eventually lead to a believers temporal death. Living in rebellion could not be forgiven (Num 15:30) under the law of Moses. In Acts 13:39 we see that it can be forgiven under the new covenant. Then we should intercede for a believer whenever we see them commit a sin in rebellion.




Now for sin unto death.




There is only one sin that causes eternal death. Unbelief is what stops God from healing a person. Gal 5 : 2-5 states very clearly what causes one to lose salvation. If a true Christian starts believing that Jesus didn't do it all and starts to work the law for his salvation he has stepped out of Christ. He no longer believes God nor believes in Jesus. As long as a believer continues in Christ (continues to trust Jesus for salvation) even if he does not repent God can still heal him through intercessory prayer because the blood has already been applied for all his sins. Once we step out of Christ by unbelief there is no other an offering for sins (Heb 10:26). If we quit trusting in Christ after having received the truth and reject Christ there is nothing that God can do. In Heb 6: 4-6 there is a key condition that determines just how long God will give a person to come back before condemning the person to death. If one has received the powers of the age to come (the manifest gifts) it probably won't take long. Proof that God does not act immediately is Heb 6: 7- 9.




As long as we are in Christ we do not commit any sin that leads to eternal death. This does not mean that we should live to the flesh.1Cor 6:12-13 everything is not beneficial and will impact us negatively. Matt 20:23 and Matt 5:19 lets us know that there are consequences as to status in heaven related to what we do on earth. It affects how near to God we will be. We should not risk being near to God and thereby being close to the least of those in heaven. Ananias (Acts 5: 1-5) will be there in heaven in a lower place than he would been had he not lied. Maybe you don't believe that Ananias will be in heaven.




TheJews in Acts 4:31 were true believers. No one was added to the church from then until Ananias and Sapphira died. The Holy Spirit to which they lied was the one in themselves. God does not kill unbelievers for lying to Christians.




Now to those that believe in osas I am not changing words or denying certain passages. Both Jn 6:44 and Jn 12:32 cannot be true. After the resurrection Jesus does the drawing. The reason Jn 6:44 was true until the resurrection was because the Father blinded (Ro 11: 7) all except the ones that He gave to Jesus. The reason that He would raise them was a prophecy that only one friend would betray Him. Jn 10:27 Jesus is talking about the same people being referred to in 6:44 who are the disciples or possibly the 120 in Acts 1: 15.




Any reference to a guarantee God is saying that He will fulfill His end of the agreement.




Our salvation is based on a covenant and not an unconditional promise. Our terms are in Jn 15: 1-7. The acceptance of the covenant and ourwork to uphold our end of the covenant is in Jn 6:29.

 

[littlelight]

Lk11:4 Jesus said a lot about our forgiveness being based upon how we forgive others. If our forgiveness for salvation as based on our forgiveness of others then salvation would be based in part on our work. Our salvation is not based on our ability to forgive. For our daily walk and to be given the opportunity to continue to produce fruit we need to be forgiven and to forgive.




Jn5:5-10 It seems obvious to me from verse 8 and 10 that to remain apart of Him means to remain in Him. He said that they were already clean but still needed the washing. If we have to ask him to cleanse us to keep our salvation then our salvation depends on us to do something and we are working for that salvation. In asking Jesus daily to cleanse us we reaffirm daily that we need Him and we earn the right to glorify Him and produce more fruit. If we don't ask Him to cleanse us He calls us home. If we quit believing in Him and don't think that Jesus did it all we are calling him a liar. Heb 10:29 is how God feels about the person that does that. If one does it they break the covenant. God's not going to make another covenant because it would require Jesus to do it again.




I know for a lot of you after years of indoctrination you won't believe that a person can be a true Christian unless they repent of their sins and prove that repentance by their good works (Acts26:20). All I can do is relate what God taught me when I donated my kidney. I thought that the person I was donating to needed to cleanup his life. I really wanted to tell him I expected him to promise me that he would at least start acting better. I thought about it and one morning I woke up with my answer. If I asked anything at all from him I would be selling my kidney. A promise would be a cheap price for a kidney. I gave it no strings attached as God give His Son. How cheap would it make Jesus' blood if He asked anything for it outside of you to believe and accept His gift. If God asked anything at all for it that would place a value on a priceless gift. Verse 26:20 does not mean they have to repent and act accordingly. All it means is they should do it.







Now if no law means there is no sin (Ro 4:15 , Ro 5:13) and if the gentiles do not have the law ( Ro 2:14). Just what do gentiles have to repent of except unbelief.

 

[WIP]

You were right to give your kidney with no strings attached and I applaud you for that but I’m not sure you fully understand what repentance is. Too often it seems people are under the impression that repentance is merely feeling sorry for one’s sin, confessing said guilt, and asking God for forgiveness. This is only half the story. In my view, true repentance is to have a complete change of heart and attitude toward the sin. If one truly repents, his actions will reflect that repentance not out of duty or to prove repentance but out of the change that has taken place.

When I was young, I had a bad habit of shop lifting. I never felt remorse for doing it and in fact I actually felt a sense of pride and a rush in my ability to get a away with it. Eventually there came a time in my life when I repented of that sin and since then, I have no desire to even harbor thoughts of stealing. Friends, family, and acquaintances laugh when they find out that I won’t cheat on my income taxes “like everyone else does.†I’ll share a couple examples to illustrate my point.

I operate a hobby farm and my home computer and ATV are used in my farming business. I could easily declare that those pieces of equipment are business expenses and write off the expense against my income taxes but I use them for personal use as well as farm use. The tax code only allows business expenses to be deducted against business income. For this reason, I don’t declare the entire cost of the equipment as business expenses. Everyone else I know, and I mean everyone, deducts the entire cost as business expense and yes, they get away with it.

I grow and sell hay and we often give some to my mother-in-law for her horses. I record the transaction as a hay sale and pay income taxes accordingly even though I got paid nothing for it. Because I am declaring the cost of the hay as a business expense it is only right that I pay income taxes on the value of that hay when I sell it or give it away.

You see, I not only realized the error of my ways and felt sorry for what I had done but I also experienced a complete change of heart and attitude. I don’t avoid stealing because I have some desire or obligation to prove I have repented. I don’t avoid stealing because I fear the consequences. I don’t avoid stealing in the hope that I might earn brownie points with God. I avoid stealing because it is the right thing to do.

Mark 1:14-15
Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.â€

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.â€

Luke 13:1-5
There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent yo will all likewise perish.â€

 

[littlelight]

You were right to give your kidney with no strings attached and I applaud you for that but I’m not sure you fully understand what repentance is. Too often it seems people are under the impression that repentance is merely feeling sorry for one’s sin, confessing said guilt, and asking God for forgiveness. This is only half the story. In my view, true repentance is to have a complete change of heart and attitude toward the sin. If one truly repents, his actions will reflect that repentance not out of duty or to prove repentance but out of the change that has taken place.

When I was young, I had a bad habit of shop lifting. I never felt remorse for doing it and in fact I actually felt a sense of pride and a rush in my ability to get a away with it. Eventually there came a time in my life when I repented of that sin and since then, I have no desire to even harbor thoughts of stealing. Friends, family, and acquaintances laugh when they find out that I won’t cheat on my income taxes “like everyone else does.†I’ll share a couple examples to illustrate my point.

I operate a hobby farm and my home computer and ATV are used in my farming business. I could easily declare that those pieces of equipment are business expenses and write off the expense against my income taxes but I use them for personal use as well as farm use. The tax code only allows business expenses to be deducted against business income. For this reason, I don’t declare the entire cost of the equipment as business expenses. Everyone else I know, and I mean everyone, deducts the entire cost as business expense and yes, they get away with it.

I grow and sell hay and we often give some to my mother-in-law for her horses. I record the transaction as a hay sale and pay income taxes accordingly even though I got paid nothing for it. Because I am declaring the cost of the hay as a business expense it is only right that I pay income taxes on the value of that hay when I sell it or give it away.

You see, I not only realized the error of my ways and felt sorry for what I had done but I also experienced a complete change of heart and attitude. I don’t avoid stealing because I have some desire or obligation to prove I have repented. I don’t avoid stealing because I fear the consequences. I don’t avoid stealing in the hope that I might earn brownie points with God. I avoid stealing because it is the right thing to do.

Mark 1:14-15
Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.â€

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.â€

Luke 13:1-5
There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.â€

The Jews are under the law. I thought that I had stated that in one of my posts in this series. Yes they had sins imputed to them. God calls on all to repent. The Jews who are under the law repent of sins committed under the law. The scriptures that you cite John and Jesus are both talking to those under the law. In my last post I cited 1 scripture that proves gentiles ( Ro 2:14) are not under the law. I also cited 2 scriptures ( Ro 4:15 , Ro 5:13 ) that state that apart from the the law there is no sin. Now we know that all who sin apart from the law will perish ( Ro 2:12a ) apart from the law. In Jn 16:8-9 we are told the sin that men are convicted of. That sin is because they do not believe in Jesus. So the sin we must repent of is unbelief.







Now if you are right and men must repent of all their sins explain 1 Cor5: 1- 5. All the believers in the congregation of Corinth had no idea that the young man should have repented of a behavior that even the pagans did not do. If the Corinthians had to repent of sexual sins prior to salvation why were they proud of the young man? You are not proud of something that causes you to repent. Paul, a man well educated in the law, was the father of this congregation. Surely he had told at least one or two of them that they had to repent of sexual sins before salvation. 1 Cor 1: 1- 11 is the gospel that Paul preached to the Corinthians. No where in the gospel does he say that they had to repent of the sins that Jesus died for. Paul indicates in verse 3 that what he passed on was of first importance and , according to most Christians, if there is no salvation without repentance that would have to be included in the most important part of the gospel.







Explain why the believers in Acts 19: 17-19 did not repent of practicing sorcery until they got scared. Both the Corinthian and Ephesian congregations were started by Paul who was sent by Jesus as an evangelist to the gentiles. In his letter to the Ephesians Paul wrote (Eph 1: 12-14) they were saved when they heard and believed the gospel. They were not saved after repenting once they had heard and believed the Gospel.

I am glad that you repented of all your sins prior to salvation, but that does not mean that all have to.

 

[wayseer]

It is a proven error only if it causes a major negative impact on the believers walk with the Lord.

I thought that was the whole reason for the biblical texts - to challenge our own ego enhanced concepts of morality and majesty.

But I gather that if you somehow feel some sort of negative impact then the biblical text is in error.

Jesus said lots of negative things like - 'Let the dead bury the dead'.

Yes the Bible we have are different for rather logical reasons - people have different opinions. But this is generally the work of highly skilled scholars - usually a team of scholars - who put together a Bible for us ordinary beings. Personally I think they do a pretty good job.

 

[littlelight]

I thought that was the whole reason for the biblical texts - to challenge our own ego enhanced concepts of morality and majesty.

But I gather that if you somehow feel some sort of negative impact then the biblical text is in error.

Jesus said lots of negative things like - 'Let the dead bury the dead'.

Yes the Bible we have are different for rather logical reasons - people have different opinions. But this is generally the work of highly skilled scholars - usually a team of scholars - who put together a Bible for us ordinary beings. Personally I think they do a pretty good job.

1. [FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]It is a proven error only if it causes a major negative impact on the believers walk with the Lord. (ex. Some prople claim that Jn 21:16 is in error. They say this because although both agapeo and phileo can mean love , each means a differant kind of love. What major negative impact does not knowing differance between agapeo and phileo have on a believers walk? Therefore; It does not meet my defination of error. No believer would stumble in their walk by not knowing the differance between agapeo and phileo.)[/FONT]

The above is my complete post of what you cited. And I was saying that there is no doctrine that I know of that is determined by the translation of agapeo and phileo. Therefore, since there is a difference between the two it does not rise to the level of being an error.

MaybeI did not make myself clear in my first post. I do not decide truth. I compare my 28 to 30 versions and take the majority in agreement as the truth. I have not found that I cannot get a clear majority. In most cases well over 20 of the versions are in agreement. So the bibles as translated decide the truth for me. Whereas, when someone has a different translation from their own translating (not an already accepted version) , I compare his translation to the 28 versions that I have to see if his translation is in the majority compared to previous versions. I have never found the new expert to be right. In other words people who re-translate and come up with a new meaning are wrong when compared to the versions we already have.

 

[wayseer]

In other words people who re-translate and come up with a new meaning are wrong when compared to the versions we already have.

Wrong?

There is any amount of research going on and new ways of interpreting text. Some of these are applied to new interpretations of the Bible - so are rejected. It is a matter of scholarly decision - not a moral judgement.

For instance, have a look at 1 Samuel 10. In most Bibles you will find the chapter ends with 'But he held his peace' - or words to that effect. In the NRSV there is an additional couple of paragraphs - what gives?

When the Dead Sea Scrolls were found there was a complete text of 1 Samuel which included the additional verses to Chapter 10. The editors of the NRSV decided that this DSS text was more original that what we had previously and included the additional paragraphs. The editors of the NIV decided not to include the additional paragraphs for the very same reason - that we had at the moment was more original that the DSS text. Now, who do you think is 'right'?

I have no idea who is right.

What I am demonstrating is that interpretation is best left to the experts and while we might have a favorite text that is our decision.

 

[gr8grace]

The only inerrant word is the original inspired word of God, The original Hebrew and the original Greek.

As believers we are all to be experts on the interpretation of Gods word, Don't take anyone's interpretation to Heart .....not even the experts.

As believer priests we are all to study and show our selves approved, go back to the original languages and prove to your self who is,what is right or wrong. God gave us the word and His Holy Spirit to guide us to the Truth.

Most men,including me have presuppositions,a sin nature,certain agendas, and just plain prone to make mistakes.

Its very liberating to learn that each and every believer is a believer priest. God gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us in His truth,BUT its each and every believers responsibility to use His or Her personal volition to study His word.

 

[littlelight]

So will one of the complete repentance prior to salvation believers explain to me how the Corinthian church was boasting on a young man in their church who was engaged in a sin that the pagans abhor ( 1Cor5:1-6). They were boasting even though they had to repent of sexual sins not nearly as bad as this mans. How can this be ?




By your doctrine the man was not saved. Which means that the church was encouraging him to do something that would send him to hell. They would be guilty of the young mans blood if he died in his sins. All Paul says in verse 6 is their boasting is not good. If their actions result in the man going to hell it is are far worse than “not goodâ€.




How does your doctrine explain this?







If I am right and people don't have to do total and utter repentance of all sins to be saved then Christians of today might beguilty of preventing people, that God could heal, from receiving salvation. Don't you think that its worth investigation to see if possibly you could be wrong?

 

[WIP]

I also cited 2 scriptures ( Ro 4:15 , Ro 5:13 ) that state that apart from the the law there is no sin.

Hi Littlelight. How do we reconcile this with Romans 7:7-9? Once we are aware of the law even though we are not yet saved are we not also convicted by that law?

 

[littlelight]

Hi Littlelight. How do we reconcile this with Romans 7:7-9? Once we are aware of the law even though we are not yet saved are we not also convicted by that law?

Paul being a Jew was not under the law until the age of accountability. So until he reached that age there was no sin imputed to him. Once he reached that age the law convicted him of sin because he was under the law. Gentiles are not, nor were they ever ( Ro 2:14 ), under the law. Now the law no longer convicts of sin but the Holy Spirit does (Ro 16:9). The sin people are convicted of is not believing in Jesus.




When we receive Jesus we do not come under the law of Moses but the law of love. We should strive to live as children of God which means we ought to repent of all sins which give a false picture of Jesus. We should not engage in sexual immorality, lying, theft, murder or anything else that we are convicted of by the spirit within us. I am not teaching that Christians are free to do as they please.

 

[WIP]

Paul being a Jew was not under the law until the age of accountability. So until he reached that age there was no sin imputed to him. Once he reached that age the law convicted him of sin because he was under the law. Gentiles are not, nor were they ever ( Ro 2:14 ), under the law. Now the law no longer convicts of sin but the Holy Spirit does (Ro 16:9). The sin people are convicted of is not believing in Jesus.




When we receive Jesus we do not come under the law of Moses but the law of love. We should strive to live as children of God which means we ought to repent of all sins which give a false picture of Jesus. We should not engage in sexual immorality, lying, theft, murder or anything else that we are convicted of by the spirit within us. I am not teaching that Christians are free to do as they please.

Thank you for clarifying and likewise I am not advocating that we earn salvation by our works of the law. Just trying to get this all straight in my head and I think I see where you are going, which really doesn't seem to be different than where I am going. That is, our actions are a reflection of our heart. Where our heart is, that is where are trust is. Do we trust in Jesus Christ and if so, do we live in accordance with that trust and therefore affirming it by our actions? Do you think I am summarizing accurately?

I guess we are taking this to far off the topic of this thread although it is yours to begin with. You have given me some things to ponder. Thank you.

 

[littlelight]

I never thought that you were supporting a works based salvation.




On the point of what is expected of Christians after salvation I believe that we agree. But if one contends that Gentiles are responsible for repenting of anything other than unbelief prior to salvation then I disagree. People have to change God's word or hide behind mistranslation to justify false doctrines. I believe that one false doctrine is complete repentance of all sins before receiving salvation. Someone has to prove how 1 Cor5: 1-6 fits that doctrine for it to be true.




Someone has to explain when Paul in 1 Cor 15: 1-8 stated the gospel he preached which contained what was of first importance omitted repentance. If one has to repent of all sins prior to salvation it has to be included in the of first importance. One also has to explain why all thru the new testament from acts on belief or believed was when the scriptures indicated that gentiles were saved.



One doctrine that supports all the scripture I cited is repentance of unbelief is what is needed to save a person. It supports why all the Corinthians could misunderstand and believe that the mans sexual sins were something to boast of. Paul told them that everything was legal. They misunderstood and thought that Paul meant that it gave them license to do it.But If Paul had told them all sexual sins had to be repented of prior to salvation it would be hard to misunderstand. Paul did not hold them accountable for the mans blood because the man was saved and would not lose it due to his sexual sin.




Repenting of unbelief supports why 1 Cor 15: 1-8 omits repentance as of first importance. Repentance of unbelief is built in when you believe. And it explains why all thru the epistles believing is the point of salvation. It also supports why in Jn 16: 9 the Holy Spirit only convicts of sin due to not believing in Jesus.

 

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As further proof that complete repentance is not needed lets examine Acts 8:1-24. I have always been taught that this proves that belief alone cannot save one. But lets compare what is said to other scripture. If Simon M ,the magician, were not saved would Peter have told (Acts 8: 22) Simon M. that God could forgive him after he had just rejected the only means that God can forgive someone? Peter knows that without shedding blood ( Heb 9:22) no sins can be forgiven. Peter also knows that Jesus' blood is the only acceptable sacrifice to God. Would Peter tell a man, who had just rejected Jesus, that he could be forgiven after refusing the only means that God has provided for forgiveness?




If Simon M was an unsaved man that is exactly what verse 22 implies.

 

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Matt23:1- 29 holds truth for us today. Verses 29 thru 32 Jesus states that they admit that their fathers were wrong in killing the prophets yet they believe their fathers instead of believing the word of God spoken by the prophets. Isa 29: 13 their worship is rules from their fathers. Jer 7:22 and Jer 26:2-6 listen to the prophets. Isa 1:15-16 make yourself clean on the inside and I will cleanse your sins. Mic 6:8 act justly, love mercy and walk humbly with your God. Yet that generation believed their fathers at the same time they venerated the prophets by adorning their graves but closing their ears to their messages.

Acts 10:43 is some of the testimony of the prophets that they did not believe.




Our God's arm is not to short to write in English. Believe His word and not those that hold to the traditions ( doctrines ) taught by men. I am not saying that our leaders are as bad as the pharisees in the above. But we should learn from history. Experts are wrong if they refuse to investigate when presented with creditable evidence to the contrary.




Do not believe me. I am not a prophet, teacher or preacher. Read the word and make your own decisions. I got fed up with hearing about how powerful God was at the same time getting my questions answered by“its not translated correctly.†Php 2:12 you are responsible for your beliefs.




When I get to heaven God will ask me what I did with his word. I will be able to say that “ I believed the bible He gave me.†What will you say?