At least there are more here who will agree with you.
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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At least there are more here who will agree with you.
Sinthesis
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That is not what you said in post #15. There you have Him crucified on Thursday.
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BTW: I changed post #20 to a Thursday afternoon burial.
Buen Camino
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Oops! Sorry about that. My bad. The error must have been due to a "senior moment."
BTW: I changed post #20 to a Thursday afternoon burial.
Buen Camino
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It's very easy to prove that Jonah was alive inside the fish at some point.
†. Jonah 2:1-2 . . Jonah prayed to Yhvh his God from the fish's belly.
But it's just as easy to prove he was dead at some point too.
†. Jonah 2:6 . . To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever.
Mountains aren't rooted in the bellies of fishes; rather: they're rooted in the earth; which is exactly why Jonah said the earth beneath barred him in rather than the lips of a fish's mouth.
So; we have a man praying from two locations:
†. Jonah 2:1 . . Jonah prayed to Yhvh his God from the fish's belly.
†. Jonah 2:2 . . Out of the belly of sheol I cried
In other words; Jonah prayed from two bellies: the belly of a fish, and the belly of sheol. Since the record shows Jonah in only two places-- and one of them is clearly the belly of a fish --then by default the belly of sheol is located in the vicinity of the roots of the mountains.
But how is it possible for Jonah to be inside the fish while at the same time down inside the earth? Well; the answer is pretty easy if we but simply allow that people exist beyond the demise of their organic bodies. In other words: while Jonah was dead; his corpse was interred in the fish; and his soul was warehoused in the netherworld.
According to Acts 2:25-31 Christ, while dead, was in two places at once too: in a grave, and in hades; which is the Greek equivalent of the belly of sheol; which, according to Mr. Jonah, is located in the vicinity of the roots of the mountains.
†. Matt 12:39-41 . . For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Christ wasn't buried in the heart of the earth. In point of fact, he wasn't even buried in the earth's soil. No, he was buried in a rock tomb on the surface of the earth. How then was he in the heart of the earth? Well; the same as Jonah. While Christ's corpse was interred in the rock, his soul was warehoused in the netherworld.
†. Ps 16:10 . . For you will not leave my soul in sheol, nor allow your holy one to see corruption.
NOTE: A certain well-known denomination insists that when a human being dies, it goes completely out of conscious existence. Their resurrection doctrine therefore is not a resurrection according to the traditional meaning of the word, but rather; a re-creation: which essentially implies that when Christ died on the cross, he ceased to exist; viz: for three days and three nights, there was no Christ-- neither in this life nor in the next. So in order to "raise" Christ from the dead, it was necessary for God to create Jesus' previous existence back to existence. In other words: according to the beliefs of some religions; the pre-ascension Christ was a second Christ; viz: a redux.
That belief of course assumes that the Lord's soul died on the cross right along with his body; which of course it didn't because assassins can't kill souls.
†. Matt 10:28a . . Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
In other words: the soul doesn't perish along with the demise of one's body. Not that it's impossible; it's just that only God can pull off something like that.
†. Matt 10:28b . . but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The Greek word for "hell" in that verse isn't the hell of Acts 2:25-31. No; that one is haides, but this one is geena (gheh'-en-nah) which is much worse than the roots of the mountains: much worse.
Buen Camino
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It's very easy to prove that Jonah was alive inside the fish at some point.
†. Jonah 2:1-2 . . Jonah prayed to Yhvh his God from the fish's belly.
But it's just as easy to prove he was dead at some point too.
†. Jonah 2:6 . . To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever.
Mountains aren't rooted in the bellies of fishes; rather: they're rooted in the earth; which is exactly why Jonah said the earth beneath barred him in rather than the lips of a fish's mouth.
So; we have a man praying from two locations:
†. Jonah 2:1 . . Jonah prayed to Yhvh his God from the fish's belly.
†. Jonah 2:2 . . Out of the belly of sheol I cried
In other words; Jonah prayed from two bellies: the belly of a fish, and the belly of sheol. Since the record shows Jonah in only two places-- and one of them is clearly the belly of a fish --then by default the belly of sheol is located in the vicinity of the roots of the mountains.
But how is it possible for Jonah to be inside the fish while at the same time down inside the earth? Well; the answer is pretty easy if we but simply allow that people exist beyond the demise of their organic bodies. In other words: while Jonah was dead; his corpse was interred in the fish; and his soul was warehoused in the netherworld.
According to Acts 2:25-31 Christ, while dead, was in two places at once too: in a grave, and in hades; which is the Greek equivalent of the belly of sheol; which, according to Mr. Jonah, is located in the vicinity of the roots of the mountains.
†. Matt 12:39-41 . . For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Christ wasn't buried in the heart of the earth. In point of fact, he wasn't even buried in the earth's soil. No, he was buried in a rock tomb on the surface of the earth. How then was he in the heart of the earth? Well; the same as Jonah. While Christ's corpse was interred in the rock, his soul was warehoused in the netherworld.
†. Ps 16:10 . . For you will not leave my soul in sheol, nor allow your holy one to see corruption.
NOTE: A certain well-known denomination insists that when a human being dies, it goes completely out of conscious existence. Their resurrection doctrine therefore is not a resurrection according to the traditional meaning of the word, but rather; a re-creation: which essentially implies that when Christ died on the cross, he ceased to exist; viz: for three days and three nights, there was no Christ-- neither in this life nor in the next. So in order to "raise" Christ from the dead, it was necessary for God to create Jesus' previous existence back to existence. In other words: according to the beliefs of some religions; the pre-ascension Christ was a second Christ; viz: a redux.
That belief of course assumes that the Lord's soul died on the cross right along with his body; which of course it didn't because assassins can't kill souls.
†. Matt 10:28a . . Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
In other words: the soul doesn't perish along with the demise of one's body. Not that it's impossible; it's just that only God can pull off something like that.
†. Matt 10:28b . . but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The Greek word for "hell" in that verse isn't the hell of Acts 2:25-31. No; that one is haides, but this one is geena (gheh'-en-nah) which is much worse than the roots of the mountains: much worse.
Buen Camino
/
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†. Acts 2:24 . . It was not possible that he should be held by death.
Why not? Because Jesus had more than just human life: he also had eternal life.
†. John 5:26 . . As the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself.
†. 1John 1:2 . .The life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.
Eternal life is a species of life that can't die; therefore it's impervious to death.
So then, when Christ's body expired on the cross, he didn't go out of existence because eternal life can't be terminated by the mere passing of a frail organism. If that were not true, then eternal life wouldn't be eternal; it would instead be just as temporal, just as fragile, and just as subject to termination as human life. In point of fact, if eternal life was vulnerable to death, then it would be possible for God to commit suicide.
How can a mortal human being have eternal life? Well; in the passages below, note the grammatical tense of the "have" verb. It's present tense rather than future, indicating that believers have eternal life right now-- no delay and no waiting period.
†. John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has eternal life
†. John 6:47 . .Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and trust in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
†. 1John 5:13 . .These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
So then, believers need not fear going out of existence any more than Jesus feared.
†. John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
Clearly then, people claiming to be the Lord's followers; while not possessing eternal life; are only wearing a costume.
†. 1John 5:9-12 . .We accept human testimony; but God's testimony carries more weight because it's the testimony of God, which He has given about His son . . . And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. He who has The Son has this life; he who does not have this life, does not have God's son.
Buen Camino
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†. Acts 2:24 . . It was not possible that he should be held by death.
Why not? Because Jesus had more than just human life: he also had eternal life.
†. John 5:26 . . As the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself.
†. 1John 1:2 . .The life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.
Eternal life is a species of life that can't die; therefore it's impervious to death.
So then, when Christ's body expired on the cross, he didn't go out of existence because eternal life can't be terminated by the mere passing of a frail organism. If that were not true, then eternal life wouldn't be eternal; it would instead be just as temporal, just as fragile, and just as subject to termination as human life. In point of fact, if eternal life was vulnerable to death, then it would be possible for God to commit suicide.
How can a mortal human being have eternal life? Well; in the passages below, note the grammatical tense of the "have" verb. It's present tense rather than future, indicating that believers have eternal life right now-- no delay and no waiting period.
†. John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has eternal life
†. John 6:47 . .Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who heed my message, and trust in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
†. 1John 5:13 . .These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
So then, believers need not fear going out of existence any more than Jesus feared.
†. John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
Clearly then, people claiming to be the Lord's followers; while not possessing eternal life; are only wearing a costume.
†. 1John 5:9-12 . .We accept human testimony; but God's testimony carries more weight because it's the testimony of God, which He has given about His son . . . And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. He who has The Son has this life; he who does not have this life, does not have God's son.
Buen Camino
/
thisnumbersdisconnected
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One question: Does the day matter?
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thisnumbersdisconnected
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I know you have mentioned the two-Sabbath theory too, and either you or someone else claimed that AD 33 was a day when the Passover Sabbath was separate from the weekly Sabbath. That is also incorrect. The two-Sabbath theory is a false view taken by those who say Jesus was not crucified on Friday. Wednesday crucifixion advocates use three invalid arguments in an effort to prove that an annual Sabbath (first day of unleavened bread) fell on Thursday, followed by an ordinary weekday Friday then the ordinary weekly Sabbath on Saturday. The truth is that in the years 30 and 33 AD, the "first day of unleavened bread" fell on the weekly Sabbath day, thus making such a two-Sabbath theory both unnecessary and impossible. Proponents of the theory then usually claim Jesus was not crucified in either 30 AD or 33 AD.
Wednesday crucifixion advocates, in order to escape the obvious fact that Jesus was crucified on Friday, tell us that the word "Sabbath" in Mt 28:1 is plural and refers to 1) an annual Sabbath: the first day of the feast of unleavened bread and 2) the weekly Sabbath. I will warrant that the Greek word is plural, however the conclusion is certainly invalid. This is because there are in fact six places in the Greek, where the plural "sabbaton" is used and all of them (with the exception of the disputed Mt 28:1 passage) refer to a single weekly Sabbath day. In light of these facts, the evidence powerfully supports the fact that Mt 28:1 refers to the weekly Sabbath alone.
I disagree. You are trying to understand the concept of "three days and three nights" in the context of modern English and modern ways of thinking. That would be the incorrect way to understand them. Jesus did not understand them that way.
Luke 13 NASB
32 And He said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal."
Obviously, Jesus viewed a partial day as inclusive of "one day" because this passage refers to what we today think of as only two days. There is at least one Old Testament example as well.32 And He said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal."
Exodus 19
10 The LORD also said to Moses, "Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments;
11 and let them be ready for the third day, for on the third day the LORD will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.
Also, the other synoptic gospels do not use the phrase "three days and three nights" and in fact vary in their quotation of Jesus with phrases such as "on the third day," "after three days," and "until the third day" in rendering examples of the coming crucifixion and resurrection on a single weekend, Friday to Sunday. It is obvious from the many uses of "three days" in the gospels that the phrases are interchangeable and mean the same thing.10 The LORD also said to Moses, "Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their garments;
11 and let them be ready for the third day, for on the third day the LORD will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people.
I know you have mentioned the two-Sabbath theory too, and either you or someone else claimed that AD 33 was a day when the Passover Sabbath was separate from the weekly Sabbath. That is also incorrect. The two-Sabbath theory is a false view taken by those who say Jesus was not crucified on Friday. Wednesday crucifixion advocates use three invalid arguments in an effort to prove that an annual Sabbath (first day of unleavened bread) fell on Thursday, followed by an ordinary weekday Friday then the ordinary weekly Sabbath on Saturday. The truth is that in the years 30 and 33 AD, the "first day of unleavened bread" fell on the weekly Sabbath day, thus making such a two-Sabbath theory both unnecessary and impossible. Proponents of the theory then usually claim Jesus was not crucified in either 30 AD or 33 AD.
Wednesday crucifixion advocates, in order to escape the obvious fact that Jesus was crucified on Friday, tell us that the word "Sabbath" in Mt 28:1 is plural and refers to 1) an annual Sabbath: the first day of the feast of unleavened bread and 2) the weekly Sabbath. I will warrant that the Greek word is plural, however the conclusion is certainly invalid. This is because there are in fact six places in the Greek, where the plural "sabbaton" is used and all of them (with the exception of the disputed Mt 28:1 passage) refer to a single weekly Sabbath day. In light of these facts, the evidence powerfully supports the fact that Mt 28:1 refers to the weekly Sabbath alone.
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thisnumbersdisconnected
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Some doubt that Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathaea had enough time to return to the city, locate Pilate, obtain an audience, round up a hundred-pound weight of spices, return to the crucifixion site, get the body down off the cross, and prepare it for burial all before sundown: but I think they did.
Christ is recorded as expiring around the ninth hour (Matt 27:46-50, Mark 15:34-37, Luke 23:44-46) which corresponds to 3:pm. So his friends had three hours to go before the official end of day; and actually, they were racing against the sun rather than against the clock. Passover in 2013 falls on March 25. On that day, the sun sets roughly six hours and nine minutes after high noon. So his friends would have a little extra to work with this year. A Passover in April would afford them a little more. For example; Passover in 2012 fell on April 7. On that day, the sun set roughly six hours and twenty-two minutes after high noon.
Anyway; in my opinion, three hours was plenty enough time to to find Mr. Pilate, accumulate the spices, get back out to the crucifixion site, take the Lord's body down off the cross, wrap it in cloths and spices, and lay it to rest in Joseph of Arimathaea's tomb; especially since the Lord was executed and buried practically right outside the city's walls.
The site of Golgotha has never really been precisely verified; but considering that condemned men had to lug crosses to their own executions after having been flogged and pummeled to within an inch of their lives, it's my guess the distance wasn't all that great or they wouldn't make it. (cf. John 19:1-3, Isa 52:14)
Some people seem to be under the impression that the site where Christ was crucified was a great journey from Jerusalem, but I've no doubt it was just outside town-- like most boot hills in America's old West.
†. John 19:20 . . The place where Jesus was crucified was near the city
And the cemetery itself was conveniently situated adjacent to the crucifixion site.
†. John 19:41-42 . . Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulcher, wherein was never man yet laid. There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulcher was nigh at hand.
Jerusalem 2,000 years ago in the Lord's era wasn't the sprawling metropolis it is now. If you check a National Geographic map of the old city's boundaries compared to the modern, you'll note a significant difference.
Finding Pilate was the easy part. His palace was right next to the fortress of Antonia, which itself was situated near the Temple in Jerusalem. Pilate had sentenced the Lord from that location only just that very morning.
Pilate and the Lord spent some time together in a personal interview. By the time it was over; Pilate was actually sympathetic to the Lord's plight and knew in his own heart that the Lord was somebody special rather than just an ordinary criminal. I don't think the Lord's friends had much trouble obtaining permission to take the Christ's remains into custody and bury it. The instant Pilate verified the Lord's death, he released the body without argument. (Mark 15:43-45)
Some people don't think three hours is adequate, but that's their hang-up, not mine. There are always going to be skeptics about the events of the Lord's crucifixion similar to those who cannot bring themselves to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald had enough time to get off all three of the shots fired at JFK; but to this day; no one has been able to prove he didn't.
Others object I fail to consider how long it would have taken to wash the Lord's bloody body and make it presentable. But Christ was buried under severe time constraints because of the Jews' impending Passover which commenced that night at sundown . However; the Bible makes no mention that Jesus' friends made him "presentable" I mean, after all, they just wanted to get him buried before sundown. It wasn't their goal to groom the Lord for public viewing in a Vatican rotunda.
FAQ: If the women of Matt 27:61, Matt 28:1 and Mark 16:1 were fully aware that the Lord had already been adequately spiced; why would they want to come back later with more?
Well; the Lord was well-loved and admired by quite a few people; including an entourage of anonymous women (Mark 15:40-41). It's to be expected that some of his female friends would want an active part in his burial; like when people toss their own personal little handful of dirt on top of a casket. It's their way of saying good-bye and obtaining closure.
Mary Magdalena was especially fond of the Lord and very upset when she was led to believe his body had been moved before she had a chance to add her own spices. True; the Lord's corpse didn't need her spices. It already had a wheelbarrow load of stuff smeared on it. But don't you see: none of those spices were Mary's. Some people just don't get it because there's a great big void right through the middle of them where a heart is supposed to be.
Buen Camino
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Some doubt that Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathaea had enough time to return to the city, locate Pilate, obtain an audience, round up a hundred-pound weight of spices, return to the crucifixion site, get the body down off the cross, and prepare it for burial all before sundown: but I think they did.
Christ is recorded as expiring around the ninth hour (Matt 27:46-50, Mark 15:34-37, Luke 23:44-46) which corresponds to 3:pm. So his friends had three hours to go before the official end of day; and actually, they were racing against the sun rather than against the clock. Passover in 2013 falls on March 25. On that day, the sun sets roughly six hours and nine minutes after high noon. So his friends would have a little extra to work with this year. A Passover in April would afford them a little more. For example; Passover in 2012 fell on April 7. On that day, the sun set roughly six hours and twenty-two minutes after high noon.
Anyway; in my opinion, three hours was plenty enough time to to find Mr. Pilate, accumulate the spices, get back out to the crucifixion site, take the Lord's body down off the cross, wrap it in cloths and spices, and lay it to rest in Joseph of Arimathaea's tomb; especially since the Lord was executed and buried practically right outside the city's walls.
The site of Golgotha has never really been precisely verified; but considering that condemned men had to lug crosses to their own executions after having been flogged and pummeled to within an inch of their lives, it's my guess the distance wasn't all that great or they wouldn't make it. (cf. John 19:1-3, Isa 52:14)
Some people seem to be under the impression that the site where Christ was crucified was a great journey from Jerusalem, but I've no doubt it was just outside town-- like most boot hills in America's old West.
†. John 19:20 . . The place where Jesus was crucified was near the city
And the cemetery itself was conveniently situated adjacent to the crucifixion site.
†. John 19:41-42 . . Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulcher, wherein was never man yet laid. There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulcher was nigh at hand.
Jerusalem 2,000 years ago in the Lord's era wasn't the sprawling metropolis it is now. If you check a National Geographic map of the old city's boundaries compared to the modern, you'll note a significant difference.
Finding Pilate was the easy part. His palace was right next to the fortress of Antonia, which itself was situated near the Temple in Jerusalem. Pilate had sentenced the Lord from that location only just that very morning.
Pilate and the Lord spent some time together in a personal interview. By the time it was over; Pilate was actually sympathetic to the Lord's plight and knew in his own heart that the Lord was somebody special rather than just an ordinary criminal. I don't think the Lord's friends had much trouble obtaining permission to take the Christ's remains into custody and bury it. The instant Pilate verified the Lord's death, he released the body without argument. (Mark 15:43-45)
Some people don't think three hours is adequate, but that's their hang-up, not mine. There are always going to be skeptics about the events of the Lord's crucifixion similar to those who cannot bring themselves to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald had enough time to get off all three of the shots fired at JFK; but to this day; no one has been able to prove he didn't.
Others object I fail to consider how long it would have taken to wash the Lord's bloody body and make it presentable. But Christ was buried under severe time constraints because of the Jews' impending Passover which commenced that night at sundown . However; the Bible makes no mention that Jesus' friends made him "presentable" I mean, after all, they just wanted to get him buried before sundown. It wasn't their goal to groom the Lord for public viewing in a Vatican rotunda.
FAQ: If the women of Matt 27:61, Matt 28:1 and Mark 16:1 were fully aware that the Lord had already been adequately spiced; why would they want to come back later with more?
Well; the Lord was well-loved and admired by quite a few people; including an entourage of anonymous women (Mark 15:40-41). It's to be expected that some of his female friends would want an active part in his burial; like when people toss their own personal little handful of dirt on top of a casket. It's their way of saying good-bye and obtaining closure.
Mary Magdalena was especially fond of the Lord and very upset when she was led to believe his body had been moved before she had a chance to add her own spices. True; the Lord's corpse didn't need her spices. It already had a wheelbarrow load of stuff smeared on it. But don't you see: none of those spices were Mary's. Some people just don't get it because there's a great big void right through the middle of them where a heart is supposed to be.
Buen Camino
/
Sinthesis
Member
Not really, but He was crucified on a Wednesday and was not born on December 25th. Meh.
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According to Matt 28:1, Luke 24:1, and John 20:1 women went out to the cemetery on the first day of the Jews' week; viz: Sunday.
According to Luke 24:13-24, that day was the third day since Jesus' crucifixion.
Buen Camino
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A Wednesday afternoon burial would put Jesus rising on a Saturday, which is the seventh day of the Jews' week. That's the wrong day. The New Testament testifies he rose on the Jews' first day of the week; not the seventh.
According to Matt 28:1, Luke 24:1, and John 20:1 women went out to the cemetery on the first day of the Jews' week; viz: Sunday.
According to Luke 24:13-24, that day was the third day since Jesus' crucifixion.
Buen Camino
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Sinthesis
Member
I don't agree with many of the assumptions you make. So I believe Jesus was crucified on Wednesday and rose on Sunday. The YLT of Luke 24:21 allows for this timeline if you understand how that particular Sunday was the third day of 'something' other than what is commonly assumed.
thisnumbersdisconnected
Member
To the first, no. To the second, obviously.
Sinthesis
Member
Is this what you mean? No, not really, but obviously He was crucified on a Wednesday and was not born on December 25th?
thisnumbersdisconnected
Member
I mean He was not crucified on a Wednesday, and most assuredly He was not born on 12/25.Is this what you mean? No, not really, but obviously He was crucified on a Wednesday and was not born on December 25th?
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A certain door-to-door religion claims that Jesus' body is still dead. It never revived, and to prevent it from decomposing, God atomized it; viz: totally disintegrated it all the way down to it's atomic constituents-- and that's the condition of Jesus' body to this very day. But that's impossible. Let me show you why.
†. John 2:19-22 . . Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days. Therefore the Jews said: This temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days? But he was talking about the temple of his body. When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples called to mind that he used to say this; and they believed the Scripture and the saying that Jesus said.
There's a couple of Greek words translated "destroy" in the New Testament. One is apollumi which means to destroy fully. One of apollumi's locations is Matt 10:28. But the word in John 2:19 is different. It's luo; which is a bit ambiguous; but means primarily to loosen. For example within the context of John 2:19-22 it obviously refers to dismantling buildings; viz: razing them.
†. Matt 24:1-2 . . Departing now, Jesus was on his way from the temple, but his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. In response he said to them: "Do you not behold all these things? Truly I say to you; by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.
That actually happened in 70 ad when both Jerusalem, and the temple were demolished by a Roman army led by Titus, son of the emperor Vespasian. But although the Temple no longer stood, its building materials still existed; strewn around on the ground as disconnected stones.
When terrorists flew airliners into the World Trade Center, they subsequently busted the buildings all the way down to the ground. However, the building materials themselves were still there-- all the concrete, all the glass, and all the metal --just no longer connected together in the shape of erect sky scrapers.
Same thing when Las Vegas real estate mogul Steve Wynn set about to construct the fabulous Bellagio hotel complex. He didn't bother with remodeling the old Dunes to accomplish his dream; but instead demolished the Dunes and built the Bellagio from the ground up. When the Dunes collapsed, it didn't vanish into thin air. Instead it fell to the ground in a heap of rubble just as the World Trade Center did, and just as the Temple did; viz: its building materials still existed; just no longer connected together as an erect hotel/casino complex.
Here's John 2:19 from that door-to-door religion's translation.
"Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
That's actually a very satisfactory translation because it says exactly what luo is meant to convey; viz: to dismantle; which Webster's defines as: to take to pieces and/or to destroy the integrity or functioning of; for example:
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again.
That door-to-door religion insists that God dismantled Jesus' body into a zillion Humpy-Dumpty pieces and scattered them to the four winds. However, even if their proprietary theory was actually in the Bible; the Lord wouldn't have remained disintegrated like that for longer than three days or people would have good reason to believe he was a liar at John 2:19 --not just about that; but about other things he said too.
Buen Camino
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A certain door-to-door religion claims that Jesus' body is still dead. It never revived, and to prevent it from decomposing, God atomized it; viz: totally disintegrated it all the way down to it's atomic constituents-- and that's the condition of Jesus' body to this very day. But that's impossible. Let me show you why.
†. John 2:19-22 . . Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days. Therefore the Jews said: This temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days? But he was talking about the temple of his body. When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples called to mind that he used to say this; and they believed the Scripture and the saying that Jesus said.
There's a couple of Greek words translated "destroy" in the New Testament. One is apollumi which means to destroy fully. One of apollumi's locations is Matt 10:28. But the word in John 2:19 is different. It's luo; which is a bit ambiguous; but means primarily to loosen. For example within the context of John 2:19-22 it obviously refers to dismantling buildings; viz: razing them.
†. Matt 24:1-2 . . Departing now, Jesus was on his way from the temple, but his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. In response he said to them: "Do you not behold all these things? Truly I say to you; by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.
That actually happened in 70 ad when both Jerusalem, and the temple were demolished by a Roman army led by Titus, son of the emperor Vespasian. But although the Temple no longer stood, its building materials still existed; strewn around on the ground as disconnected stones.
When terrorists flew airliners into the World Trade Center, they subsequently busted the buildings all the way down to the ground. However, the building materials themselves were still there-- all the concrete, all the glass, and all the metal --just no longer connected together in the shape of erect sky scrapers.
Same thing when Las Vegas real estate mogul Steve Wynn set about to construct the fabulous Bellagio hotel complex. He didn't bother with remodeling the old Dunes to accomplish his dream; but instead demolished the Dunes and built the Bellagio from the ground up. When the Dunes collapsed, it didn't vanish into thin air. Instead it fell to the ground in a heap of rubble just as the World Trade Center did, and just as the Temple did; viz: its building materials still existed; just no longer connected together as an erect hotel/casino complex.
Here's John 2:19 from that door-to-door religion's translation.
"Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
That's actually a very satisfactory translation because it says exactly what luo is meant to convey; viz: to dismantle; which Webster's defines as: to take to pieces and/or to destroy the integrity or functioning of; for example:
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again.
That door-to-door religion insists that God dismantled Jesus' body into a zillion Humpy-Dumpty pieces and scattered them to the four winds. However, even if their proprietary theory was actually in the Bible; the Lord wouldn't have remained disintegrated like that for longer than three days or people would have good reason to believe he was a liar at John 2:19 --not just about that; but about other things he said too.
Buen Camino
/
W
Webers_Home
Guest
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The Koran's Jesus didn't die on the cross.
The Women [4.157] . . And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
The Bible's Jesus did die on the cross.
†. John 19:31-35 . . Now it was the day of preparation, and the next day was to be a special sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
Since Jesus was somewhat elevated, (it's not stated exactly how high) the spear point would have entered his body at an upward angle. The text doesn't say which side was stabbed, but from John's description, and judging from the intent of the soldier to leave no doubt about Jesus' death, the heart side was very likely the side they cut into and the spear point entered just under his rib cage.
The heart is surrounded by a membrane called the pericardium. This membrane contains a serous matter or liquor resembling water, which prevents the surface of the heart from becoming dry by its continual motion. It was very likely this which was pierced and from which the water flowed. The point of the spear also seems to have reached one of the ventricles of the heart, and the blood, yet warm, rushed forth, either mingled with or followed by the liquor of the pericardium, so as to appear to John to be blood and water flowing together. Though not medically accurate in our day, John's calling the serous fluid "water" was accurate enough in his own day.
The Bible's Jesus was quite dead; and the Romans themselves certified his demise.
†. Mark 15:43-45 . . Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body. Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph.
Buen Camino
/
The Koran's Jesus didn't die on the cross.
The Women [4.157] . . And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
The Bible's Jesus did die on the cross.
†. John 19:31-35 . . Now it was the day of preparation, and the next day was to be a special sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
Since Jesus was somewhat elevated, (it's not stated exactly how high) the spear point would have entered his body at an upward angle. The text doesn't say which side was stabbed, but from John's description, and judging from the intent of the soldier to leave no doubt about Jesus' death, the heart side was very likely the side they cut into and the spear point entered just under his rib cage.
The heart is surrounded by a membrane called the pericardium. This membrane contains a serous matter or liquor resembling water, which prevents the surface of the heart from becoming dry by its continual motion. It was very likely this which was pierced and from which the water flowed. The point of the spear also seems to have reached one of the ventricles of the heart, and the blood, yet warm, rushed forth, either mingled with or followed by the liquor of the pericardium, so as to appear to John to be blood and water flowing together. Though not medically accurate in our day, John's calling the serous fluid "water" was accurate enough in his own day.
The Bible's Jesus was quite dead; and the Romans themselves certified his demise.
†. Mark 15:43-45 . . Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body. Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph.
Buen Camino
/