Good works........James

[twinc]

it seems not many know that James was anti Christ as the way and pro the Jewish 'good works' as the way and so he was originally accepted for a while by the Jews as Bishop of Jerusalem until a few moments before his death when he accepted and openly declared Jesus as the [door] way from the temple roof from which he was hurled to his death and bludgeoned to death as he fell by a fuller's staff - twinc

 

[Jonathan]

it seems not many know that James was anti Christ as the way and pro the Jewish 'good works' as the way and so he was originally accepted for a while by the Jews as Bishop of Jerusalem until a few moments before his death when he accepted and openly declared Jesus as the [door] way from the temple roof from which he was hurled to his death and bludgeoned to death as he fell by a fuller's staff - twinc

Sounds like you've been reading some non-canonical works. But where did you come up with the "anti-Christ" part? James was the leader of the church of Jerusalem and direct successor after Jesus. Even Paul sought James approval and authority. Did James teach "good works", he probably did. But then again his teachings were probably more in alignment with what Jesus taught than Paul. After all, it was Jesus that said at the end times the sheep(those who will receive everlasting life) are those who helped those in need and fed and clothed the poor. Read Matthew 25:31, doesn't Jesus teach "good works" in this passage?

 

[Jesse]

I agree with Jonathon, James was not anti-Christ, he at one time did not believe Jesus - his blood brother - was the Savior, but that was not the case at the time James penned what he did. He did not teach that works saved either, but He did teach what TRUE, REAL, WORKING Faith looks like. The works we do is the evidence of that faith, because without the works, then our faith is dead.

 

[Jesse]

Sounds like you've been reading some non-canonical works. But where did you come up with the "anti-Christ" part? James was the leader of the church of Jerusalem and direct successor after Jesus. Even Paul sought James approval and authority. Did James teach "good works", he probably did. But then again his teachings were probably more in alignment with what Jesus taught than Paul. After all, it was Jesus that said at the end times the sheep(those who will receive everlasting life) are those who helped those in need and fed and clothed the poor. Read Matthew 25:31, doesn't Jesus teach "good works" in this passage?

No, that verse in Matthew 25:31 does not teach "good works" saves. James and Paul compliment one another, they both taught Christ and understood faith in Him saves. They also understood that with that faith came responsibilities and accountability.

 

[Jonathan]

No, that verse in Matthew 25:31 does not teach "good works" saves. James and Paul compliment one another, they both taught Christ and understood faith in Him saves. They also understood that with that faith came responsibilities and accountability.

What exactly does Matthew 25:31 teach then?

 

[Jesse]

What exactly does Matthew 25:31 teach then?

A number of things, 1). that He is God 2). He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords 3). He is Glory and is glorified

 

[Jonathan]

A number of things, 1). that He is God 2). He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords 3). He is Glory and is glorified

Really? I think you've left out the concept that is talked about the most. Read it again, the vast majority of the content of the story is Jesus explaining who the sheep are, who the goats are and what their future entails. If it was merely meant to show Jesus' authority, he didn't even have to talk about the sheep and goats.

 

[Jesse]

Really? I think you've left out the concept that is talked about the most. Read it again, the vast majority of the content of the story is Jesus explaining who the sheep are, who the goats are and what their future entails. If it was merely meant to show Jesus' authority, he didn't even have to talk about the sheep and goats.

You stated to read Matthew 25:31, not the entire chapter of 25, when you're trying to make a point, you really need to be more specific of what you want the other person to read, Matthew 25:31 is only reading that verse, not the whole chapter of 25......the point of that chapter is that faith without works is dead.

Yet, you will argue that no, good works saves you and the absence of faith in Christ doesn't matter because we can earn our way into heaven, then I will in turn argue back and then the whole entire argument will just be stupid and neither of us will change our minds........so......I already KNOW that faith without works is dead and you believe whatever you believe because you're not changing my mind and you're choosing to reject Christ, your choice and the entire conversation will be <yawn>.....I'd rather be experiencing God then discussing anything that a non believer would have to present.

 

[Jonathan]

I'd rather be experiencing God then discussing anything that a non believer would have to present.

That's all you really had to say. I guess us non-believers are so lost in our iniquity we are incapable of worthwhile contribution.

 

[Jesse]

That's all you really had to say. I guess us non-believers are so lost in our iniquity we are incapable of worthwhile contribution.

Wow - we agree.....I would include blinded as well.

 

[Jonathan]

Wow - we agree.....I would include blinded as well.

Where is the animosity coming from exactly Jesse? Did I say something offensive or disrespectful to you? I surely don't think your blinded even though I don't share your views, but you seem to think I am. I think we simply have different opinions and I enjoy discussing those differences as long as it's done respectfully.

 

[Jesse]

Where is the animosity coming from exactly Jesse? Did I say something offensive or disrespectful to you? I surely don't think your blinded even though I don't share your views, but you seem to think I am. I think we simply have different opinions and I enjoy discussing those differences as long as it's done respectfully.

You mean like twist the word of God to your own liking, yes, that is offensive. When the non spiritual tries to present the spiritual TO the spiritual, that's a joke.

 

[Jonathan]

You mean like twist the word of God to your own liking, yes, that is offensive. When the non spiritual tries to present the spiritual TO the spiritual, that's a joke.

I guess at this point we aren't getting anywhere but I don't want to leave your last statements unanswered. The way I interpreted the text was to say that Jesus did teach that "works" are required for salvation. This is what you call "twisting"? There are more "works" passages from Jesus in the bible so it's not like it's an anomaly. What did Jesus tell the rich young ruler? Didn't he tell him to follow the commandments?
Regarding my spirituality, you have no idea what the state of my spirituality is just like I don't know yours.

 

[Jesse]

I guess at this point we aren't getting anywhere but I don't want to leave your last statements unanswered. The way I interpreted the text was to say that Jesus did teach that "works" are required for salvation. This is what you call "twisting"? There are more "works" passages from Jesus in the bible so it's not like it's an anomaly. What did Jesus tell the rich young ruler? Didn't he tell him to follow the commandments?
Regarding my spirituality, you have no idea what the state of my spirituality is just like I don't know yours.

This is exactly why I said you would twist the Bible because you are doing exactly that. The non spiritual trying to interpret the Spiritual is a joke, really it is. It is not at all what Jesus is saying nor is He even implying it. Faith without works is dead - that's it - don't add to it.

 

[Jonathan]

This is exactly why I said you would twist the Bible because you are doing exactly that. The non spiritual trying to interpret the Spiritual is a joke, really it is. It is not at all what Jesus is saying nor is He even implying it. Faith without works is dead - that's it - don't add to it.

How I your statement about faith without works being dead incompatible with what I said about works being required? If no works render your faith dead, doesn't that mean works are required?
Do you accuse everyone that disagrees with your biblical interpretation of twisting the text?

 

[Jesse]

How I your statement about faith without works being dead incompatible with what I said about works being required? If no works render your faith dead, doesn't that mean works are required?
Do you accuse everyone that disagrees with your biblical interpretation of twisting the text?

No it doesn't mean works is required. Faith without works is dead, the works is the evidence of the faith. lol
Obedience is not a works. lol

 

[Jonathan]

No it doesn't mean works is required. Faith without works is dead, the works is the evidence of the faith. lol
Obedience is not a works. lol

Jesse, how can you read Matthew 25:31- and Matthew 19 below and say that Jesus didn't teach works is required for salvation?

Matthew 19:
16Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18“Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’c and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’d ”
20“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

 

[Jesse]

Jesse, how can you read Matthew 25:31- and Matthew 19 below and say that Jesus didn't teach works is required for salvation?

Matthew 19:
16Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18“Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’c and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’d ”
20“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

You are mistaken, largely mistaken. Jesus said if you love me, you will obey and what you are presenting is obedience through loving the Lord. We have works that have been prepared for us, these we do out of evidence of faith.
You are presenting obedience, you're confusing the two because you are trying to understand the spiritual with a carnal mind, and it doesn't work well - at all. In fact, you're unbeknowest supporting a false doctrine, that's what a person does when they don't have a clue and don't understand.

 

[Jonathan]

You are mistaken, largely mistaken. Jesus said if you love me, you will obey and what you are presenting is obedience through loving the Lord. We have works that have been prepared for us, these we do out of evidence of faith.
You are presenting obedience, you're confusing the two because you are trying to understand the spiritual with a carnal mind, and it doesn't work well - at all. In fact, you're unbeknowest supporting a false doctrine, that's what a person does when they don't have a clue and don't understand.

Jesse, in the passage I just posted Jesus doesn't say anything about "if you love me". He simply says follow the commandments and follows it up by saying if you want to be perfect, sell everything and follow him.
Your certitude of the accuracy of your interpretation of the Bible is only matched by your insolence. If you truly are spiritual, where is your grace? Everyone has been extremely respectful here with the exception of you. Not very Jesus-like if you ask me.

 

[Jesse]

Jesse, in the passage I just posted Jesus doesn't say anything about "if you love me". He simply says follow the commandments and follows it up by saying if you want to be perfect, sell everything and follow him.
Your certitude of the accuracy of your interpretation of the Bible is only matched by your insolence. If you truly are spiritual, where is your grace? Everyone has been extremely respectful here with the exception of you. Not very Jesus-like if you ask me.

I don't really care if you think I'm Jesus like or not, you are TRASHING the Bible and it's ridiculous for a non spiritual person to think they know when they don't. You are obviously here to teach a false doctrine, a person doing that is up to no good.
Jesus ALREADY said if you love Him, we will obey, we take the WHOLE council of the Word and get the WHOLE picture of what God is telling us.
Stop trashing the Bible!