Gospel of Thomas

[mutzrein]

Ya gotta be kidding me. There is a reason it's not included in the 'bible'.

I have to say from reading your posts in other threads I'm actually kind of surprised that this is your thoughts on this. I am interested in your thoughts as to the reason it's not included in the bible and why you disregard it. In reading your comments in other threads I consider you to be the 'voice of reason' that pops up in threads with a quick little sentence that usually contains a loaded question. I also like the way you post.

Thanks - and sorry for my delay in replying.

Let me ask you this - What is it about scripture (the one with 66 books) that distinguishes it from other writings?

 

[seekandlisten]

Let me ask you this - What is it about scripture (the one with 66 books) that distinguishes it from other writings?

Interesting question, one that I'll be thinking on for a bit. It's a hard one to answer as I have come to recognize that what I hold the bible to be is going to be different than others who 'believe' in the bible and on the flip side is going to be drastically different then say an Athiest. The truth is that the 'Atheist' and the 'Fundamentalist' both have valid points. The point being, without turning this into a discussion about the 'role' of the bible so to speak, the bible is what it is to me and that doesn't mean it has to be the same for another. You don't have to look far to get all types of 'interpretations' that stem from the bible. The simple fact that the bible is so widespread should say something for it.

I'll put this thought forward and would like to hear your thoughts. What distinguishes the bible from other writings is only a question that can be answered on a personal level. I believe that 'God' speaks 'through the bible' rather than it being 'God's literal spoken word' contained in the bible. Simply put, without the 'Spirit' the bible is nothing more than 'words on a page.' It may contain some good 'stories' and morals but those can be found in many religious books. (note: I didn't like the way this part read so I will add that a 'heart' like 'God' found in David may be the start as well) Any of this make sense?

 

[TonyB]

On the website you posted...

The Gnosis Archive, http://www.gnosis.org, offers a vast collection of primary texts and resources relating to Gnosticism and the Gnostic Tradition, both ancient and modern.

This is enough to give me pause about anything found on their site. Gnosticism at it's best is heresy.

This from that site, and explanation of why things are the way they are...

Many religions advocate that humans are to be blamed for the imperfections of the world. Supporting this view, they interpret the Genesis myth as declaring that transgressions committed by the first human pair brought about a “fall†of creation resulting in the present corrupt state of the world. Gnostics respond that this interpretation of the myth is false. The blame for the world’s failings lies not with humans, but with the creator. Since -- especially in the monotheistic religions -- the creator is God, this Gnostic position appears blasphemous, and is often viewed with dismay even by non-believers.

First of all, Genesis myth? That should set alarms off for every Christian.

Summing it up, in Gnosticism, God is the enemy, man didn't sin, and Satan is the agent of the true god who is working to return everything to a perfect condition. Essentially it flips the truth on it's head. God becomes the bad guy who wants to cleanse the creation by destroying it all, and Satan becomes the "messiah" or "savior" attempting to rescue humanity from the clutches of an angry and evil "god."

The Gnostic God concept is more subtle than that of most religions. In its way, it unites and reconciles the recognitions of Monotheism and Polytheism, as well as of Theism, Deism and Pantheism.

Sounds like ecumenicism to me...the melding of all world religions into one. Bad bad stuff here.

I don't want to sound harsh, but if this Gospel of Thomas has Gnostic teachings (gnosis.org doesn't seem to look down upon it, which should tell us something), then it is evil and blasphemous stuff and will lead people to hell. Remember, Satan quoted scripture to Jesus when he tempted Him, so even the truth isn't off limits for Satan. He'll use it for his own twisted ends.

 

[seekandlisten]

On the website you posted...

The Gnosis Archive, http://www.gnosis.org, offers a vast collection of primary texts and resources relating to Gnosticism and the Gnostic Tradition, both ancient and modern.

This is enough to give me pause about anything found on their site. Gnosticism at it's best is heresy.

While I can't say I totally agree with your comment, the point of me putting up the site was for those who weren't familiar with the Gospel of Thomas a chance to look it over if they wished. As far as the rest of the info on that site, it's up to the individual if they wish to explore it further. There is some other stuff on that site that I found beneficial yet I wouldn't say I follow the Gnostic beliefs.

The Gnostic God concept is more subtle than that of most religions. In its way, it unites and reconciles the recognitions of Monotheism and Polytheism, as well as of Theism, Deism and Pantheism.

Sounds like ecumenicism to me...the melding of all world religions into one. Bad bad stuff here.

While I wouldn't agree with trying to fit all the beliefs of every religion into one, I do wonder why so many people are against 'accepting' those of other beliefs. One might be surprised what they can learn from another belief system if they are looking at it to learn rather than to find fault. Just my opinion though.

I don't want to sound harsh, but if this Gospel of Thomas has Gnostic teachings (gnosis.org doesn't seem to look down upon it, which should tell us something), then it is evil and blasphemous stuff and will lead people to hell.

I would suggest you read it first before making such harsh statements.

 

[Caroline H]

While I wouldn't agree with trying to fit all the beliefs of every religion into one, I do wonder why so many people are against 'accepting' those of other beliefs. One might be surprised what they can learn from another belief system if they are looking at it to learn rather than to find fault. Just my opinion though.

Did the LORD tell the Israelites to mingle with the pagan people in the Promised Land when they went over into it? Did he tell them to learn from their beliefs? NO! He told them to kill them and tear down their idols and their groves of worship so that they would not go whoring after their gods and incur the wrath of God. We are not in the Promised Land, and so we are not charged with killing pagans. But as God's people, people called by His name, we are to be holy because He is holy. We are not to have ANYTHING to do with other religions, and to say that we can learn from other beliefs is to spit in God's face, saying that His way is not sufficient for us and we need to supplement it with these other things. I would not put myself in that position if I were you.

 

[TonyB]

I would suggest you read it first before making such harsh statements.

I have read parts of it, and I see things in it that are contrary to scripture and blasphemous.

What's one good way to pass off lies as if they are the truth? Present it in such a way that it is "desirable to make one wise" (heard that before too, haven't we). Secret or hidden knowledge that will make you special or better than your fellow man because of what you think you know. A carrot on a stick, if you will, to entice a person into Satan's plans for their destruction.

Satan doesn't have any new tricks. Just the same old lies, repackaged and made out to be something new and exciting.

 

[francisdesales]

I would suggest you read it first before making such harsh statements.

I have read parts of it, and I see things in it that are contrary to scripture and blasphemous.

What's one good way to pass off lies as if they are the truth? Present it in such a way that it is "desirable to make one wise" (heard that before too, haven't we). Secret or hidden knowledge that will make you special or better than your fellow man because of what you think you know. A carrot on a stick, if you will, to entice a person into Satan's plans for their destruction.

Satan doesn't have any new tricks. Just the same old lies, repackaged and made out to be something new and exciting.

I do not think it necessarily "contradicts" Scriptures in all passages. What it DOES contradict is the sense of interpretation established by the early Church. In other words, verse 15 means "x", not "y". The Gnostics USED the same Scriptures to prooftext their interpretations, and it took the early church, esp. men such as John, Ignatius and Irenaeus to address these false beliefs, such as Jesus only APPEARED to be present in the flesh, but did not actually die...

This is why the Church rejects these writings. They disagree with the church's sense of the the Traditions once given by the Apostles, who did not believe in a demiurge, an apparent Jesus, or a pre-existence before our fleshy birth.

Regards

 

[TonyB]

I do not think it necessarily "contradicts" Scriptures in all passages.

This should be enough...

13. The disciples said to Jesus: "We know that you will go from our reach: who will become the greater over us?". Jesus said this to them: " Wherever you go, you will go up to Jacob the righteous, because of him, heaven and earth came to be."

What does the Bible say about creation? Speaking about the Word, which is Jesus...

John 1:3
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)

What does the Bible say about men being righteous?

Romans 3:10
as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
New American Standard Bible (©1995)

That's two strikes in one passage. Not looking good for the Gospel of Thomas; it seems to be riddled with stuff that is slightly off all the way to right out heresy. Jesus said to beware the leaven of the Pharisees. In the same way, if we compromise over just a little heresy, it will permeate and infect everything eventually.

 

[seekandlisten]

13. The disciples said to Jesus: "We know that you will go from our reach: who will become the greater over us?". Jesus said this to them: " Wherever you go, you will go up to Jacob the righteous, because of him, heaven and earth came to be."

Can I ask the source for this passage, or what translation? Here is the way it's written in the 3 translations I'm familiar with.

(12) The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you will depart from us. Who is to be our leader?"
Jesus said to them, "Wherever you are, you are to go to James the righteous, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

12. The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader?"
Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

(12)
(1) The disciples said to Jesus: "We know that you will depart from us.
Who (then) will rule [lit., ‘be great’] over us?"
(2) Jesus said to them: "No matter where you came from, you should go to
James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

A consideration to take into account, the Gospel of Thomas is a collection of sayings so to cite this one saying and ascribe that it credits James(or Jacob) as being responsible for creation could be misleading and understanding it out of context.

Source for Gospel of Thomas Sayings: http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

Lambdin Translation

Patterson and Meyer Translation

Patterson and Robinson Translation

 

[francisdesales]

The disciples said to Jesus: "We know that you will go from our reach: who will become the greater over us?". Jesus said this to them: " Wherever you go, you will go up to Jacob the righteous, because of him, heaven and earth came to be".

What does the Bible say about creation? Speaking about the Word, which is Jesus...

I can interpret that this way...

God loves so much that He desired to share of Himself, beyond Himself. He desires to pour Himself out, and does so beginning with creation, with the ultimate goal of creating a being who is able to love God in return, a being made in His image and likeness.

Thus, the world came into being because God desired to create Jacob and other rigtheous men... Would this be correct, from Scriptures? The passage does not oppose Jesus to Jacob. It speaks of God's motive for creation, men. And thus, technically, this is not a faulty teaching, if we are not saying that JACOB created or through Jacob, God created.

What does the Bible say about men being righteous?

Romans 3:10
as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
New American Standard Bible (©1995)

Now THERE is an incorrect interpretation, without doubt...

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judæa, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Luke 1:5-6

In Romans, Paul is citing the Psalm writer to the effect that the JEWS were not righteous, each and every one, since the Psalm writer was speaking of evil JEWS... You have to read the context of Paul and the writer of the Psalms. No EVIL men are righteous, seek out God, etc. In those very Psalms, they speak of men who DO seek out God and who ARE righteous.

Regards

 

[TonyB]

I can interpret that this way...

God loves so much that He desired to share of Himself, beyond Himself. He desires to pour Himself out, and does so beginning with creation, with the ultimate goal of creating a being who is able to love God in return, a being made in His image and likeness.

Thus, the world came into being because God desired to create Jacob and other rigtheous men... Would this be correct, from Scriptures? The passage does not oppose Jesus to Jacob. It speaks of God's motive for creation, men. And thus, technically, this is not a faulty teaching, if we are not saying that JACOB created or through Jacob, God created.

You can interpret it that way if you like, but that's not what it says.

The disciples said they knew Jesus was leaving, so they wanted to know who would be their new leader. Jesus, in essence, told them to look up to Jacob the righteous. Jesus was setting this Jacob, whoever he is, on a pedestal.

If we take your interpretation and say that Jacob the righteous is man in general, we get Jesus telling us to look to ourselves for leadership. That is blatantly against what the Bible teaches. Scripture says that we should look to God for direction. Sure, men lead, but our leaders, according to God's plan, would be God fearing, God desiring men who follow the scripture and live it.

So, technically, even then it contradicts scripture in telling us to look to ourselves for direction.

Now THERE is an incorrect interpretation, without doubt...

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judæa, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Luke 1:5-6

Why were they righteous? Not because they walked in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord...

Romans 3:20 (King James Version)
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The sole purpose of the law was to expose sin.

They were righteous in the same way that Abraham was, by faith. It was not their own righteousness it is talking about. It's talking about the righteousness of Christ imputed to them through faith in the as yet unfulfilled promise of God. As we look back upon Christ and rely on his sacrifice through faith, they had faith in looking forward to Christ through the promise of God for the future.

In Romans, Paul is citing the Psalm writer to the effect that the JEWS were not righteous, each and every one, since the Psalm writer was speaking of evil JEWS... You have to read the context of Paul and the writer of the Psalms. No EVIL men are righteous, seek out God, etc. In those very Psalms, they speak of men who DO seek out God and who ARE righteous.

Regards

On the contrary, verse 9 says exactly why Paul was quoting Psalms...

Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Jews and Gentiles. In the scripture, those two groups combined contain the entire mass of humans that existed or ever will exist. Immediately after that, he goes on to quote Psalms referring to the nature of man. There are none righteous. In God's eyes, all men, Jews and Gentiles, are equally wicked and no one is deserving of anything from Him. It says nothing about people who are righteous.

Jesus said the same when he said that the well are not in need of a physician (Mark 2:17). When he said that, he wasn't implying that the Pharisees were in some way healthy, He was showing them that they were ignorant of the reality of their condition.

None are righteous, no not one. Only by the righteousness of Christ, because of the blood He shed on the cross and my faith in Him does God seem me as righteous. I am a wicked one that has been redeemed by grace, through faith. Just like the song says...

"Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me ..."

 

[francisdesales]

The disciples said they knew Jesus was leaving, so they wanted to know who would be their new leader. Jesus, in essence, told them to look up to Jacob the righteous. Jesus was setting this Jacob, whoever he is, on a pedestal.

I thought your issue was with creation and the reason it came to be, not with who to follow after Jesus left. At least that appears to be the case from your initial response to the verse you cite.

If we take your interpretation and say that Jacob the righteous is man in general, we get Jesus telling us to look to ourselves for leadership. That is blatantly against what the Bible teaches. Scripture says that we should look to God for direction. Sure, men lead, but our leaders, according to God's plan, would be God fearing, God desiring men who follow the scripture and live it.

Isn't heaven the locale of Jacob the righteous? Look to heaven... It is highly mystical, no doubt.

So, technically, even then it contradicts scripture in telling us to look to ourselves for direction.

There are a number of Christians I have spoken with on this very forum who seem to think that very thing... "the Spirit leads me", "I don't need to go to a church" etc...

Why were they [Elizabeth and Zacharias] righteous? Not because they walked in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord...

Read Luke 1:5-6 AGAIN, please. I will underline the pertinent portion to make it easier...

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judæa, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless[/i]. Luke 1:5-6

They were righteous in the same way that Abraham was, by faith.

You said NO ONE was righteous... So now, it appears you have recanted. Well done.

In Romans, Paul is citing the Psalm writer to the effect that the JEWS were not righteous, each and every one, since the Psalm writer was speaking of evil JEWS... You have to read the context of Paul and the writer of the Psalms. No EVIL men are righteous, seek out God, etc. In those very Psalms, they speak of men who DO seek out God and who ARE righteous.

On the contrary, verse 9 says exactly why Paul was quoting Psalms...

Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

That's my point. Paul is making the point to self-righteous Jews that their history shows they were not perfect in the eyes of God. The Psalms related by Paul are about Jews, those who did not pursue God, were not righteous, not a one.

This has been twisted to state that NO man pursues God. Clearly, this is false by the Scriptures I have related, even the Psalms themselves point out men pursuing God. The point is that NO WICKED man, self-centered and without fear of the Lord, NOT A ONE AS THESE, seeks God or is righteous.

The point - ALL men need God. Whether it is Gentiles or Jews. Anyone who is righteous is so because of God. But to say NO MAN is righteous is false. We are MADE righteous by God, not just pretend-righteousness. Men of good will DO seek out God, drawn by the Father Himself. Paul's point is that without God, we can do nothing good - both the Gentile of Chapter 1 and the Jew of Chapter 3. Only the "spiritually circumcised Jew", so because of God's SPIRIT, can attain the Kingdom.

The point - we need God. It is God's Spirit that moves us to pursue Him, it is God's Spirit that writes a Law on our hearts to BE righteous. And indeed, because of the Spirit, we ARE righteous.

 

[TonyB]

Can I ask the source for this passage, or what translation? Here is the way it's written in the 3 translations I'm familiar with.

I think this is the one...

http://www.thethomasgospel.com/contents.htm

Translation by Stuart D. Shoemaker. No reason why I picked him, it's just one I found at the time when I was looking for a text of it.

I thought your issue was with creation and the reason it came to be, not with who to follow after Jesus left. At least that appears to be the case from your initial response to the verse you cite.

It was, based off an initial impression of the passage. Consider the rest to be "in addition to."
All things were created for God's pleasure; not for man. We are stewards of something that doesn't belong to us and as such, we are filling a position in creation that God designed.

Isn't heaven the locale of Jacob the righteous? Look to heaven... It is highly mystical, no doubt.

The only thing mystical about it is how people came to think that "looking to heaven" means that we should look to dead people for help. God specifically commands against necromancy (looking to the dead for direction) and even punished Saul for seeking help from Samuel through a medium at Endor.

Don't look to man for help, look to God and His word.

Read Luke 1:5-6 AGAIN, please. I will underline the pertinent portion to make it easier...

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judæa, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless[/i]. Luke 1:5-6

They were righteous in the same way that Abraham was, by faith.

You said NO ONE was righteous... So now, it appears you have recanted. Well done.

On the contrary, you have misunderstood. The Bible is clear, there are none righteous. Only Jesus was righteous, and that is how we become righteous, through Jesus.

They weren't righteous because they walked in the commandments and ordinances of the Lord. Romans 3:20 tells us that no one is justified before God by the works of the law. What walking as God commanded did for them made them blameless. It was their faith in the yet future promise of a messiah for salvation that made them righteous. Were they righteous because of their works? No, not even for a second. They were righteous because they had the righteousness of Jesus imputed to them through faith, though it was yet future to them.

Jesus did it, not me.

That's my point. Paul is making the point to self-righteous Jews that their history shows they were not perfect in the eyes of God. The Psalms related by Paul are about Jews, those who did not pursue God, were not righteous, not a one.

This has been twisted to state that NO man pursues God. Clearly, this is false by the Scriptures I have related, even the Psalms themselves point out men pursuing God. The point is that NO WICKED man, self-centered and without fear of the Lord, NOT A ONE AS THESE, seeks God or is righteous.

But it's true that no man seeks God. Who do you know that went looking for God before he had some inkling that He existed? How do we get that inkling? Either through general revelation or special revelation.

Man who is blind to general revelation (creation, etc... the heavens declare your handiwork, etc...), and has never heard of or rejects special revelation (scripture) doesn't seek after God. The truth is, before God reveals something about Him to us that gives us a hunger to know more, none of us do seek after Him.

So, does anyone seek after God of their own volition? No. Do men seek after God after He has revealed Himself to them? Sure. And that's what I believe that is teaching: that man, in his natural state, doesn't seek after or desire God; only himself.

The point - ALL men need God. Whether it is Gentiles or Jews. Anyone who is righteous is so because of God. But to say NO MAN is righteous is false. We are MADE righteous by God, not just pretend-righteousness. Men of good will DO seek out God, drawn by the Father Himself. Paul's point is that without God, we can do nothing good - both the Gentile of Chapter 1 and the Jew of Chapter 3. Only the "spiritually circumcised Jew", so because of God's SPIRIT, can attain the Kingdom.

The point - we need God. It is God's Spirit that moves us to pursue Him, it is God's Spirit that writes a Law on our hearts to BE righteous. And indeed, because of the Spirit, we ARE righteous.

So we agree, and yet we disagree. Quite the predicament we've got ourselves in. :rolling

 

[francisdesales]

I thought your issue was with creation and the reason it came to be, not with who to follow after Jesus left. At least that appears to be the case from your initial response to the verse you cite.

It was, based off an initial impression of the passage. Consider the rest to be "in addition to."
All things were created for God's pleasure; not for man. We are stewards of something that doesn't belong to us and as such, we are filling a position in creation that God designed.

OK...

Isn't heaven the locale of Jacob the righteous? Look to heaven... It is highly mystical, no doubt.

The only thing mystical about it is how people came to think that "looking to heaven" means that we should look to dead people for help. God specifically commands against necromancy (looking to the dead for direction) and even punished Saul for seeking help from Samuel through a medium at Endor.

Huh? Jesus ascended to heaven...

Jesus was found consulting with two "dead" people at Mount Tabor, was He not?

I think you are too narrow-minded in this. Perhaps you should be more open to the possibility of people looking at Scriptures slightly differently. The passage in question from Thomas does not strike me as fundamentally heretical, IF it is seen as I explained it.

Don't look to man for help, look to God and His word.

Jesus became man, don't be embarrased...

You said NO ONE was righteous... So now, it appears you have recanted. Well done.

On the contrary, you have misunderstood. The Bible is clear, there are none righteous.

No, only your understanding is wrong. The Bible says many are righteous...

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judæa, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless[/i]. Luke 1:5-6

The problem here is that you are not looking at the context of what Paul cites. The "no man is righteous" refers to wicked men, not universally all men. Hebrews says God is pleased by anyone who seeks out God. Are you saying that Paul's verse mean God is not pleased because no one seeks Him out? Quite obviously, you are interpreting Romans 3 incorrectly, because several of these Psalms tell us that there are men that DO seek God, in the very same verses...

For thou [art] not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man. But as for me, I will come [into] thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: [and] in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple. Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face. For [there is] no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part [is] very wickedness; their throat [is] an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue. Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee. But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee. For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as [with] a shield. Psalm 5:4-12

Does this Psalm give you an idea of what Paul actually means, not what Protestantism has falsely taught you? The WICKED do not seek out God. The WICKED are enemies of God. Not ONE is righteous.

Then, David speaks about those who are righteous, seek out God and receive His blessings...

Really, the Bible speaks quite often about the pursuits of the righteous - thus, your interpretation of Romans 3 is wrong. Paul is speaking about the NEED for God, since we cannot be righteous WITHOUT God.

Only Jesus was righteous, and that is how we become righteous, through Jesus.

Where does Jesus say this? He tells us that without OUR righteousness, we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven...

I think you are confused in that man's OWN righteousness cannot achieve eternal life. But those who seek God are righteous because it is God who has put that desire within us in the first place (Phil 2:12-13). Men are righteous, most certainly, but only because of God, not their own devices. Thus, Romans 1-3 speaks about even pagans entering the Kingdom - not because of the stone laws, but the law written in their heart - God's Holy Spirit...

They weren't righteous because they walked in the commandments and ordinances of the Lord. Romans 3:20 tells us that no one is justified before God by the works of the law.

Works of the law = circumcision, Jewish dietary practices, Saturday Sabbath, etc...

No one is justified by being Jewish ITSELF or practicing what Jews specifically do.

WE, you and I, are just because of faith and love and hope, not refraining from pork or chopping part of our selves off...

But it's true that no man seeks God. Who do you know that went looking for God before he had some inkling that He existed? How do we get that inkling? Either through general revelation or special revelation.

Ah, now you are on the right track...

Men DO seek out God - and it is because God moves them to. But it is indeed MEN doing the seeking, with God's graces and aide.

Man who is blind to general revelation (creation, etc... the heavens declare your handiwork, etc...), and has never heard of or rejects special revelation (scripture) doesn't seek after God.

Romans 2 refutes that. Paul says they HAVE NO EXCUSE - God supplies us a law written in our hearts, if we choose to follow it...

So, does anyone seek after God of their own volition? No.

Exactly. Their OWN volition. But when God moves my will, it is still ME doing the seeking. God desires that WE seek Him, not that He forces us into giving Him false praise because we no longer have a will. He places within us the desire, and we seek to fulfill that desire. Such men are termed "righteous" in the Scriptures. Read carefully the Psalms. They speak often of righteous men. The author presumes that it is God leading these men, but THEY are called righteous...

No one is righteous without God. That is Paul's point. But to say "no one is righteous" is false. We are righteous because of God's grace. The righteous will enter heaven because of THEIR righteousness. Jesus never once says HIS righteousness will cover anyone. HE MAKES us righteous!

Regards

 

[TonyB]

Jesus was found consulting with two "dead" people at Mount Tabor, was He not?

No, he wasn't.

I think you are too narrow-minded in this. Perhaps you should be more open to the possibility of people looking at Scriptures slightly differently. The passage in question from Thomas does not strike me as fundamentally heretical, IF it is seen as I explained it.

I am open to people looking at scriptures differently, so long as it doesn't contradict other scripture in the process. Also, the Gospel of Thomas is not scripture.

It is just as dangerous to be too open minded as it is to be too narrow minded.

No, only your understanding is wrong. The Bible says many are righteous...

Ok, let's start over. What, in your opinion, makes a person righteous in the eyes of God?

Paul is speaking about the NEED for God, since we cannot be righteous WITHOUT God.

Yes, without a reliance solely on what Jesus did for us, all our righteousness is as filthy rags. This, to the best of my knowledge is what Protestantism teaches (I'm not exactly sure, I don't consider myself protestant. Martin Luther, IMO, didn't take his protestantism far enough) and is far from false.

WE, you and I, are just because of faith and love and hope, not refraining from pork or chopping part of our selves off...

Yes exactly, but you forgot the part about Jesus. Without Him and Him alone as the object, all your faith and hope and love is worthless.

No one is righteous without God. That is Paul's point. But to say "no one is righteous" is false. We are righteous because of God's grace. The righteous will enter heaven because of THEIR righteousness. Jesus never once says HIS righteousness will cover anyone. HE MAKES us righteous!

Except for Isaiah 64:6. No one enters heaven because of their own righteousness. Ephesians 2:8-9 puts the nail in the coffin for that statement. What righteousness does for us is that once we are saved, God views those things we do in Christ as good, and we lay up rewards for ourselves in heaven because of those.

Righteousness doesn't get anyone to heaven, unless they're relying on the righteousness of Christ. The order is set forth in Titus 3:4-8. Belief first, then works, everything before belief is dung and will be destroyed. Everything done afterward is either rewarded or loss of reward.

Titus 3:4-8 (King James Version)
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus was found consulting with two "dead" people at Mount Tabor, was He not?

No, he wasn't.

He wasn't conversing with Moses? Maybe you have a different bible then I have...

I am open to people looking at scriptures differently, so long as it doesn't contradict other scripture in the process. Also, the Gospel of Thomas is not scripture.

Agreed. Your particular passage, in my opinion, isn't necessarily "heresy", if understood as I have stated.

Ok, let's start over. What, in your opinion, makes a person righteous in the eyes of God?

God saying so... Such a person IS righteous, not pretend righteousness, not covered righteousness. Not Jesus' alone righteousness. MY righteousness IN Christ. This person IS holy, righteous, in the eyes of God.

Yes exactly, but you forgot the part about Jesus. Without Him and Him alone as the object, all your faith and hope and love is worthless.

Without Jesus as the object? So if I seek out God because of His Spirit, but never heard of Jesus, I am doomed, worthless? Not according to Romans 2...

No one is righteous without God. That is Paul's point. But to say "no one is righteous" is false. We are righteous because of God's grace. The righteous will enter heaven because of THEIR righteousness. Jesus never once says HIS righteousness will cover anyone. HE MAKES us righteous!

Except for Isaiah 64:6. No one enters heaven because of their own righteousness. Ephesians 2:8-9 puts the nail in the coffin for that statement.

Did you read my statement??? I even underlined it for you the first time around. There is no need to attack what I never said... :gah

Righteousness doesn't get anyone to heaven, unless they're relying on the righteousness of Christ. The order is set forth in Titus 3:4-8. Belief first, then works, everything before belief is dung and will be destroyed. Everything done afterward is either rewarded or loss of reward.

We are made just by God. "Loss of reward" equals eternal death... There is no prize for the disqualified.

Regards

 

[TonyB]

He wasn't conversing with Moses? Maybe you have a different bible then I have...

Conversing and consulting are not the same thing. Yes, He was conversing. No, He was not consulting. Perhaps you should read Job again. Who is man that he teaches God? Jesus had the Spirit of God in all fullness. What need would he have to consult with man?

Agreed. Your particular passage, in my opinion, isn't necessarily "heresy", if understood as I have stated.

The problem is that what you stated is not what the passage clearly says, and I don't see any indication (literary clues) that it should be interpreted symbolically or alegorically.

God saying so... Such a person IS righteous, not pretend righteousness, not covered righteousness. Not Jesus' alone righteousness. MY righteousness IN Christ. This person IS holy, righteous, in the eyes of God.

So, what must a person do then, in order for God to say they're righteous?

Without Jesus as the object? So if I seek out God because of His Spirit, but never heard of Jesus, I am doomed, worthless? Not according to Romans 2...

Yes, doomed. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I would say as well, that if a person is truly seeking God by His spirit, then God will make a way for him or her to hear about Jesus. God is not cruel and will not hold that carrot just out of a person's reach just to lure them into eternal damnation.

Maybe you better re-read Romans 2. It's not telling us that the person who does good is righteous. It's telling us that unless you keep the whole law, you're guilty of all of it. There is no one that will ever keep the whole law.

No one is righteous without God. That is Paul's point. But to say "no one is righteous" is false. We are righteous because of God's grace. The righteous will enter heaven because of THEIR righteousness. Jesus never once says HIS righteousness will cover anyone. HE MAKES us righteous!

[/quote]

Except for Isaiah 64:6. No one enters heaven because of their own righteousness. Ephesians 2:8-9 puts the nail in the coffin for that statement. [/quote]

Did you read my statement??? I even underlined it for you the first time around. There is no need to attack what I never said... :gah [/quote]

But you did say it. You said it's your own righteousness. "MY righteousness IN Christ." Our righteousness doesn't come through works of our own, even in Christ. Read Galatians 3. Righteousness is by faith. Galatians 3:6 (NASB) Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Which takes us into rewards...

We are made just by God. "Loss of reward" equals eternal death... There is no prize for the disqualified.

Regards

I should have said "rewards" rather than "reward." Salvation isn't a reward for righteousness. It is a free gift by God's grace. Loss of rewards, for the believer, equals losing some of those treasures we have stored up by doing what is right in the eyes of God, but never equals loss of salvation.

The unbelievers will get their rewards as well. Or should I say, their just desserts. Their reward is eternal punishment. See, God rewarding every man according to his works works both ways. Good for good and evil for evil. The problem is that anything done by a person without faith in Christ is considered worthless in God's eyes. Putting our faith in Christ, and asking forgiveness for sin wipes that past slate clean and we start fresh from that point on. Sometimes, we as believers do things with the wrong attitude. It's those things, done with our own interest in mind, are what costs us rewards and need repented of because even if it is a good work done in the wrong way, how we did it is counted as sin. God doesn't look on the outward appearance, He looks at the heart of a man.

 

[francisdesales]

Conversing and consulting are not the same thing. Yes, He was conversing. No, He was not consulting. Perhaps you should read Job again. Who is man that he teaches God? Jesus had the Spirit of God in all fullness. What need would he have to consult with man?

Perhaps I should be more careful when I type, apparently, I am speaking with lawyer. The point I was making is that Christ was SPEAKING/TALKING/CONVERSING/ with a person KNOWN to have died a death on this earth and was buried in the ground... Thus, making you wrong.

Jeez. I guess you prefer to ignore that you are wrong and would rather attack my selection of words, which in any case, back up my point, except your "technicality".

The problem is that what you stated is not what the passage clearly says, and I don't see any indication (literary clues) that it should be interpreted symbolically or alegorically.

All writing purporting to be Scripture has various forms of interpretation, not just literal. Otherwise, who cares about reading the Old Testament, unless one is an history major. We read the ENTIRE Scriptures because they point to Christ, figuratively, allegorically, symbolically, metaphorically, literally, or any other "ly" word you might want to draw from a hat...

So, what must a person do then, in order for God to say they're righteous?

"let it be done to me according to Your Word"... Be like Mary, then you'll be blessed, as well.

Without Jesus as the object? So if I seek out God because of His Spirit, but never heard of Jesus, I am doomed, worthless? Not according to Romans 2...

Yes, doomed. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I don't see doomed there, Tony. That doesn't mention whether Jesus must be known historically in all of His divine glory. It says He is the way, etc. A person who loves is from God - same author. He loves because he follows the way of Jesus, LOVE, and because the Spirit blows where He wills, leading anyone He desires to follow the WAy, without knowing Jesus of Nazareth in His flesh.

I would say as well, that if a person is truly seeking God by His spirit, then God will make a way for him or her to hear about Jesus. God is not cruel and will not hold that carrot just out of a person's reach just to lure them into eternal damnation.

Very good, you read Romans 2.

Maybe you better re-read Romans 2. It's not telling us that the person who does good is righteous.

Oops, maybe you didn't read it...


God Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Romans 2:6-10

Clearly, Jew or Greek gains eternal life by what they did on earth, moved by the Spirit to do.

It's telling us that unless you keep the whole law, you're guilty of all of it. There is no one that will ever keep the whole law.

Balogna.
No it isn't. ANYONE. Greeks don't have to keep the Law! Where does it say here anything about perfectly keeping the Law to be just???

Read the section I posted again. Never says anything about being perfect. That is the fatal error of "protestant" eigesis of Romans.

But you did say it. You said it's your own righteousness. "MY righteousness IN Christ." Our righteousness doesn't come through works of our own, even in Christ. Read Galatians 3. Righteousness is by faith. Galatians 3:6 (NASB) Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

You are confused. Who did the believing, Tony, Abraham or God???? Abraham was justified, not God. He was justified by God because of what Abraham did - believe.

God gives us the ability to believe, but at the end of the day, we are righteous when we say "let it be done to me according to your will

Which takes us into rewards...

I should have said "rewards" rather than "reward." Salvation isn't a reward for righteousness. It is a free gift by God's grace. Loss of rewards, for the believer, equals losing some of those treasures we have stored up by doing what is right in the eyes of God, but never equals loss of salvation.

It is a reward, but not something we earn. How about that? God rewards those who love Him, the reward is a free gift, not earned. Using God's "talents" does not make us earn anything, but we are rewarded, with 10 cities, 5 cities, etc...

The unbelievers will get their rewards as well. Or should I say, their just desserts. Their reward is eternal punishment. See, God rewarding every man according to his works works both ways. Good for good and evil for evil. The problem is that anything done by a person without faith in Christ is considered worthless in God's eyes. Putting our faith in Christ, and asking forgiveness for sin wipes that past slate clean and we start fresh from that point on. Sometimes, we as believers do things with the wrong attitude. It's those things, done with our own interest in mind, are what costs us rewards and need repented of because even if it is a good work done in the wrong way, how we did it is counted as sin. God doesn't look on the outward appearance, He looks at the heart of a man.

[/quote]

The things you mention at the end of the paragraph reward us eternal damanation, not less rewards...There is no reward in being disqualified or cast out into the night, brother.

Regards

 

[seekandlisten]

The problem is that what you stated is not what the passage clearly says, and I don't see any indication (literary clues) that it should be interpreted symbolically or alegorically.

Well, lets look at a couple of things with this Gospel.

(Gospel of Thomas)

(1) And he said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death."

(24) His disciples said to him, "Show us the place where you are, since it is necessary for us to seek it."
He said to them, "Whoever has ears, let him hear. There is light within a man of light, and he lights up the whole world. If he does not shine, he is darkness."

(63) Jesus said, "There was a rich man who had much money. He said, 'I shall put my money to use so that I may sow, reap, plant, and fill my storehouse with produce, with the result that I shall lack nothing.' Such were his intentions, but that same night he died. Let him who has ears hear."

(65) He said, "There was a good man who owned a vineyard. He leased it to tenant farmers so that they might work it and he might collect the produce from them. He sent his servant so that the tenants might give him the produce of the vineyard. They seized his servant and beat him, all but killing him. The servant went back and told his master. The master said, 'Perhaps he did not recognize them.' He sent another servant. The tenants beat this one as well. Then the owner sent his son and said, 'Perhaps they will show respect to my son.' Because the tenants knew that it was he who was the heir to the vineyard, they seized him and killed him. Let him who has ears hear."

Seems to be insinuating that there is something more than just a 'literal' interpretation, wouldn't you agree?

Or how about these:

(57) Jesus said, "The kingdom of the father is like a man who had good seed. His enemy came by night and sowed weeds among the good seed. The man did not allow them to pull up the weeds; he said to them, 'I am afraid that you will go intending to pull up the weeds and pull up the wheat along with them.' For on the day of the harvest the weeds will be plainly visible, and they will be pulled up and burned."

I don't think it's talking about gardening here.

(82) Jesus said, "He who is near me is near the fire, and he who is far from me is far from the kingdom."

One wouldn't think the author is talking about a literal fire here wouldn't you say.

Not trying to start an argument here but arguing that something is against the bible by only seeing it one way and ignoring an interpretation that puts it in parallel with what the bible teaches isn't really much of an argument aside from one's opinion.

cheers

Mark 4:12 "...they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding...."

 

[seekandlisten]

All writing purporting to be Scripture has various forms of interpretation, not just literal. Otherwise, who cares about reading the Old Testament, unless one is an history major. We read the ENTIRE Scriptures because they point to Christ, figuratively, allegorically, symbolically, metaphorically, literally, or any other "ly" word you might want to draw from a hat...