Jethro, I know your argument better than I know mine. Your not understanding Grace. I can tell by how you are responding.
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Bible Study Grace
- Thread starter gr8grace3
- Start date
Jethro Bodine
Member
I'll explain what is blocking your understanding of the argument later. Got's work to do.......
Hint: it's your OSAS indoctrination. You always hear EVERYTHING through the defensiveness of OSAS. OSAS is a separate issue, as I will show you.
This is the irony. We have to see ourselves as eternal saved and secure in Christ. Other wise, basically every word of the Bible becomes a "salvation" word or verse and we miss out on about 95% of what the Word is really saying to us.
Gal 5:6 is the perfect example of this. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with our eternal salvation and has everything to do with how we operate in the Spiritual life,practical salvation or experiential sanctification.
We miss the entire book of James and what The Spirit wants us to learn if we apply eternal salvation to James.
This is my heart......people are missing out on the spiritual way of life if they do not view themselves as secure in Christ.
The detractor~~Oh we are secure in Christ, but if we walk away or if................
The harsh reality, if someone believes this, they have already walked away from Him.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The person who is justified by faith--who we say then does works of faith--has salvation NOW. But you can only hear the argument as the person does NOT have salvation now as if that's what all doctrine of non-OSAS people has to mean. This is how the OSAS bias creeps in and keeps people from properly understanding the argument being leveled here. The person who has faith is saved and has eternal life NOW.
It's easy to see that the justification being spoken about in the passage is Paul's justification apart from works:
"4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope ofrighteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward that justification), but faith (that is what counts towards that justification) working through love (the 'kind' of faith that counts toward that justification)." (Galatians 5:4-6 NASB parenthesis mine)
But you say it has nothing to do with the justification that secures eternal salvation.
It's impossible that to believe one must continue in the faith that justified them apart from their works means you have already walked away from him. Faith is hardly what constitutes walking away from the grace of Christ. That is an absurd accusation. In the passage above Paul says it is the one who denies the way of faith to be justified and seeks to be justified by works of the law who has fallen from grace.
We're in a sad place, church, when we start thinking having faith is 'trying to be justified by law'. Paul contrasts having faith to be justified with doing works of the law to be justified, not equates them as your doctrine does. Having faith is in no way an effort at trying to be justified by works of the law. That's absurd.
How do we know we have the faith that justifies all by itself and are continuing in that faith? We obey God's commands. But some are only capable of understanding that as meaning we are justified (made righteous) by what we do instead of what we do being the inevitable result and consequence of being justified freely by God's grace apart from our works.
The man who thinks he is justified by faith in Christ, but has no sanctifying work of the Spirit bringing him up to the stature of Christ doesn't have the justification by faith in Christ apart from works he thinks he has. The point of whether or not he ever had it is another subject altogether.
Thanks Jethro. Read and re-read. Yeah, I understand your argument. And It is not Grace.
Please share your definition of Grace. That is what this thread is about.
hallowbonnie
Member
I know I have not read the entire bible yet but from what Ive read,learned in church,God and I have talked about and simply feel in my spirit God has just told me that he is faithful to finish what he started and I dont have to worry about that.As time has gone on since I was first saved at age 17 and Ive gotten closer to God more in love with him due to many things breaking me and my heart being prepared for him I have naturally over time grew to want to do things because I love him because the love has grown and the love has grown because of the rich grace and love he has shown me.Its a very natural relationship and a very natural reaction to that relationship.
Hello hallowbonnie,
It is always very encouraging to see another sister or brother growing in His grace!
Philippians 1:6~~New American Standard Bible
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Jethro Bodine
Member
That's what having faith is all about.
Jethro Bodine
Member
We all know grace is, by definition, unmerited favor. Grace is getting what you don't deserve (mercy is not getting what you deserve).
We access grace through believing, not by doing righteous works. Stop believing and you no longer have access to grace. Some can only hear the requirement for continued believing as the works gospel that Paul warns against. But he is clear that it is the doing of righteous work to gain favor (grace) with God that constitutes the damnable works gospel, not the believing of faith to gain favor with God. But if you want to show me where Paul, or anybody else in the Bible says believing in order to access the grace of God is also damnable I'm wide open to receive it.
The fundamental problem people have with works being the expected and obligatory sign of the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is failing to understand that in that doctrine the believer is justified and saved before that faith manifests itself in righteous works of faith. The expected and obligatory works that follow faith are not what solicits God's favor in justification. They are the 'natural' consequence of having been justified by faith apart from works as hallowbonnie shared in her post:
I hope you can finally see it, but I am in no way advocating a works gospel that says the obligatory works of faith are obligatory because they somehow secure God's favor in justification. No, I'm saying they are obligatory because as hallowbonnie testifies that's what the grace of justifying faith does to a person.
The lens of OSAS you keep looking at everything through is a completely separate issue from here.
Grace is secured through believing. Paul makes this abundantly clear. The person who stops believing loses the power and security of the grace that hallowbonnie says keeps one growing up as a 'natural' reaction to that grace. That's why growing up into righteous work is the sign of the presence of the grace of God one has in justification. No growing up/ no presence of God's grace in justification.
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Thank you Sir. This pretty much sums it up.
dianegcook
Member
1John 2:2-4
And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world,
And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Also you stated somewhere in another post, that if one doesn't believe, they still won't pay for their sins, because Jesus died for the sins ,of the whole world.
But in John 8 : 24 He states
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins.
And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world,
And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Also you stated somewhere in another post, that if one doesn't believe, they still won't pay for their sins, because Jesus died for the sins ,of the whole world.
But in John 8 : 24 He states
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins, for if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins.
1 John 2:2-4~~2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
Look at verse 2. That is how we came to know Him. His Common Grace to the WHOLE world. And through His salvation grace, we came to know Him personally.
By this (grace perception) we have come to know Him. This is why we are encouraged to grow in His grace and knowledge.
2 Pet 3:18~~New American Standard Bible
but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
2 Pet 1:2~~New American Standard Bible
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
lordship salvation,religion,our pride and our own self-righteousness will say that His commandments are "our following Him" or "Living/doing as He does." Impossible for us to do. BUT, it is not for the Spirit that indwells us. He constantly indwells us, but we can lose the filling of the Spirit and we can walk without His lead.
So what are these commandments that believers are to follow?
We have 4 main mandates 2 prohibitions and 2 commands: grieve not the Spirit, quench not the Spirit, walk in the Spirit, and be filled with the Spirit.
John 8:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
And yet another verse that proves it is faith alone in Christ alone for salvation.
Before we believe, we are identified as "sinners" Christ paid the penalty for sin but He did not put a stop to sin. Believers are a new creation in Christ. unbelievers still are identified as "sinners" they physically die in the sphere of their own sins, never believing in Christ.
The judgement(spiritual death) for those sins are paid in Full. It is their deeds that are Judged. Evil.
Rev 20:13~~New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.(ergon,deeds. not their sins.)
All sin is evil, but not all evil is sin. And ALL of our human good deeds are evil in the sight of the Lord. That is everything that is outside of doing things through the Spirit.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
Look at verse 2. That is how we came to know Him. His Common Grace to the WHOLE world. And through His salvation grace, we came to know Him personally.
By this (grace perception) we have come to know Him. This is why we are encouraged to grow in His grace and knowledge.
2 Pet 3:18~~New American Standard Bible
but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
2 Pet 1:2~~New American Standard Bible
Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
lordship salvation,religion,our pride and our own self-righteousness will say that His commandments are "our following Him" or "Living/doing as He does." Impossible for us to do. BUT, it is not for the Spirit that indwells us. He constantly indwells us, but we can lose the filling of the Spirit and we can walk without His lead.
So what are these commandments that believers are to follow?
We have 4 main mandates 2 prohibitions and 2 commands: grieve not the Spirit, quench not the Spirit, walk in the Spirit, and be filled with the Spirit.
John 8:24~~New American Standard Bible
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
And yet another verse that proves it is faith alone in Christ alone for salvation.
Before we believe, we are identified as "sinners" Christ paid the penalty for sin but He did not put a stop to sin. Believers are a new creation in Christ. unbelievers still are identified as "sinners" they physically die in the sphere of their own sins, never believing in Christ.
The judgement(spiritual death) for those sins are paid in Full. It is their deeds that are Judged. Evil.
Rev 20:13~~New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.(ergon,deeds. not their sins.)
All sin is evil, but not all evil is sin. And ALL of our human good deeds are evil in the sight of the Lord. That is everything that is outside of doing things through the Spirit.
Kidron
Member
"according to his mercy, HE saved us".
"to him that worketh not, but believeth on HIM that justifieth the >ungodly<"
"for as many as RECEIVED HIM, >HE< gave them POWER to become the Sons of God".
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy HE saved us""
this is grace.
"to him that worketh not, but believeth on HIM that justifieth the >ungodly<"
"for as many as RECEIVED HIM, >HE< gave them POWER to become the Sons of God".
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy HE saved us""
this is grace.