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Happy Church Day Everyone!

I do have a question i have never understood. Why do we need pastors when we have the bible and exact same words they are suppose to teach from?. There is nothing more to add so they can only either mislead and deceive, or repeat the exact same words. Unless people want to follow some mans interpretation and context rather than praying and asking God for wisdom and understand themselves.

Like, can any pastor today offer me more than the direct words of scripture Jesus says in the same bible they read?, and Paul, can any pastor offer me more than the direct words Paul was speaking when they read Paul themselves?

I see why many people have gone off path and deceived into cults without even knowing it. There pastors have lead them away from scripture and the truth in there own context.
 
I do have a question i have never understood. Why do we need pastors when we have the bible and exact same words they are suppose to teach from?. There is nothing more to add so they can only either mislead and deceive, or repeat the exact same words. Unless people want to follow some mans interpretation and context rather than praying and asking God for wisdom and understand themselves.

Like, can any pastor today offer me more than the direct words of scripture Jesus says in the same bible they read?, and Paul, can any pastor offer me more than the direct words Paul was speaking when they read Paul themselves?

I see why many people have gone off path and deceived into cults without even knowing it. There pastors have lead them away from scripture and the truth in there own context.
I know this has been discussed at length in other threads, but the short answer is because God commanded it. ("...and gave gifts unto men...And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers" Eph 4:8b and Eph 4:11)

The slightly longer answer is that the part of a pastor's job that you are describing is in reality only a very small part and the reality is that those so called pastors that have led people away into cults really are in a very small minority. It's only because when they are found out they get a lot of public exposure that makes it seem like they are a larger group than they really are.

Now keep in mind that I'm talking about real pastors that have been called by God and given the spiritual gifts of a pastor. I'm not talking about someone like the pastor I mentioned in my OP who (I've since found out from a reputable source) only took the job because he needed full time pay and at the time had an "in" to the job because he was the youth pastor. There's even more to that story, but the point is I'm not talking about someone like him who was not called by God and who was never given the gifts of a pastor.

Most people don't recognize the majority of a real pastor's work because it is more private with individuals or they see the pastor doing things that in reality are part of his job, but think that he is just doing them for the enjoyment of it and don't realize that he is actually doing his job as a pastor. They see him preaching on Sunday morning or teaching a Bible study class and think that's the biggest part of his job, but it's really only one of several tools he is using to accomplish a much bigger task.

The word in the original scriptures that's translated to "pastor" also means "shepherd", and shepherds spend almost all their time taking care of all of the needs of their sheep, and really very little time "teaching" the sheep. It's the same thing with a true pastor who is called by God and given the spiritual gifts of a pastor. The biggest part of his job is taking care of all of the spiritual and even many physical needs of his congregation. A Sunday sermon or Bible study class are only two of many tools that he will use to accomplish the task of caring for the spiritual well being of his congregation. Just as one example, you may see him eating with the congregation at a fellowship potluck. But he's not doing that because he's hungry. He planned the potluck (or had other people plan it) in order to encourage fellowship, because fellowship is spiritually beneficial as well as being a command in scripture. And if he's a proper pastor doing his job, he may look like he's just eating and having fun casual conversations with friends at his church, but in reality his eyes and ears are wide open looking and listening to everyone for hints of spiritual issues that he will be able to help with and watching for or planning opportunities to give the help. He will most likely draw on his experience, Biblical education, and his gifts of wisdom and counseling to help those who he learns need some help or encouragement. Individual Christians, especially when spiritually young and inexperienced, are seldom able to help themselves by simply reading scripture. When they try to do this on their own, they very often misunderstand or simply don't know how to apply what they are reading. A big part of a pastor's job is to help his congregation learn how to apply the principles of scripture that was written thousands of years ago to their lives in today's world. This is why most of them have gotten some sort of post graduate education in scriptures to make sure they understand the scriptures well enough to convey their principles to others without teaching things that are in error. Very few Christians, especially those who are new, can do this consistently on their own. This is why we are told not to forsake fellowship with other Christians!

So yes, there is a definite place for pastors that is given in scripture and we are not to belittle or discount the need for them.
 
Then a couple weeks back he declared himself an atheist and is now out on the internet teaching against God and promoting atheist web sites and writings.

That is extremely sad.

I know the OSAS folks would probably claim that he was never saved.

What do you say, since you would know him and his lifestyle first hand?

Was he saved, at one time?


JLB
 
This is painful, since some of you know I've always been a supporter of fellowship and a supporter of the organized church, at least of those who try to worship God more than be a social club or political organization.


I know in this season, you will separate yourself unto God in a fresh new way, and spend time with Him in fellowship.

He will show you what to do.

I believe the great falling away has begun, and we will see more and more of this before the Lord returns.

I'll bet there are more from that Church who are hurting and confused, and need to be encouraged.

You will probably see some home fellowships spring up in your area.

Be encouraged.

You can be a blessing to many.


JLB
 
That is extremely sad.

I know the OSAS folks would probably claim that he was never saved.

What do you say, since you would know him and his lifestyle first hand?

Was he saved, at one time?


JLB
I suppose it could be that he was never saved, but I think he was. It's hard for me to judge that though. I talked to his pastor from a long time ago. He believes he was saved, but that he had no calling or business being a pastor because he had none of the gifts of the Spirit that are needed for that role. He thinks that what is happening now is just the end result of several years of trying to play a roll that God hadn't intended for him.

I really can't judge if he was truly saved in the beginning or not, I only know he claimed to be. But on the other hand, for a long time he's shown signs of something not being quite right, like at the board of deacons meeting a few years ago when he told me and the rest of the deacons that prayer usually doesn't work. You know, when you know someone personally and you hear something like that, you want to believe that either he misspoke or you misunderstood what he said. But I saw several signs like that over time and looking back it has to make me suspicious of his salvation in the first place. But even if I can be suspicious, only God can know.

Besides, if someone professes to be a Christian and constantly talks about all the good things God does, then suddenly turns around and starts proclaiming and teaching people that God doesn't exist and none of those good things he talked about ever came from God, is that what's considered blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? And what does scripture say about those who blaspheme the Spirit?
 
You know, as I think about it more, his wife's behaviour might be an indication of his spirtitual life as well since he's the spiritual head of his household. She's had a lot more questionable behaviour than he has. She even got in trouble with Facebook for posting several full frontal nude pictures of their children! What Christian pastor's wife does such a thing in our society? And she's totally unrepentant and refuses to admit there was anything at all even questionable about that.
 
Thank you. But it's my fault for sharing anything personal here. Shouldn't have done that and should just stick to moderating.
It is a sad reality of people in the church today. Instead of encouragement, comfort and sincere, honest prayer when presenting a personal issue, we are met with judgement and condemnation. It doesn't create a very safe environment for people to share their struggles. I remember when that same suicidal person Jason mentioned wrote a personal issue here, blame and shame was placed on him. It's not just here, it's the church as a whole.
 
I suppose it could be that he was never saved, but I think he was. It's hard for me to judge that though. I talked to his pastor from a long time ago. He believes he was saved, but that he had no calling or business being a pastor because he had none of the gifts of the Spirit that are needed for that role. He thinks that what is happening now is just the end result of several years of trying to play a roll that God hadn't intended for him.

I really can't judge if he was truly saved in the beginning or not, I only know he claimed to be. But on the other hand, for a long time he's shown signs of something not being quite right, like at the board of deacons meeting a few years ago when he told me and the rest of the deacons that prayer usually doesn't work. You know, when you know someone personally and you hear something like that, you want to believe that either he misspoke or you misunderstood what he said. But I saw several signs like that over time and looking back it has to make me suspicious of his salvation in the first place. But even if I can be suspicious, only God can know.

Besides, if someone professes to be a Christian and constantly talks about all the good things God does, then suddenly turns around and starts proclaiming and teaching people that God doesn't exist and none of those good things he talked about ever came from God, is that what's considered blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? And what does scripture say about those who blaspheme the Spirit?

You know, as I think about it more, his wife's behaviour might be an indication of his spirtitual life as well since he's the spiritual head of his household. She's had a lot more questionable behaviour than he has. She even got in trouble with Facebook for posting several full frontal nude pictures of their children! What Christian pastor's wife does such a thing in our society? And she's totally unrepentant and refuses to admit there was anything at all even questionable about that.


Like you said, it's God who Judges such things.

If he wasn't saved, I hope he turns to God and repents.


JLB
 
It is a sad reality of people in the church today. Instead of encouragement, comfort and sincere, honest prayer when presenting a personal issue, we are met with judgement and condemnation. It doesn't create a very safe environment for people to share their struggles. I remember when that same suicidal person Jason mentioned wrote a personal issue here, blame and shame was placed on him. It's not just here, it's the church as a whole.
I have learned here and a church to be cautious. One can sit in a pew an be isolated .I have in part have that issue.I really don't have alot of time ,I could free up more but still not like 20 years ago
 
Do not take this out of context because this applies to iLove also. If you set your alarm clock to get up and go to work, and don't set it to get up and go to church on Sunday, mammon is your master.
I honestly do not believe in wasting your time in a church that is not meeting your needs, nor allowing you to meet others needs. I see little to no value in making meeting together with the saints a legalistic requirement. But I also don't believe what I just said should be used as a rationale to not make an honest effort to find a literal church home.
 
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I honestly do not believe in wasting your time in a church that is not meeting your needs, nor allowing you to meet others needs. I see little to no value in making meeting together with the saints a legalistic requirement. But I also don't believe what I just said should be used as a rationale to not make an honest effort to find a literal church home.
SPIRIT OF LEVIATHAN / PRIDE
Job 41 is the key passage on leviathan. Most of the people who have this powerful spirit never get deliverance because one of his chief jobs is to block deliverance.

Job 41:8 says that when we lay our hands on leviathan we will remember the battle and will not do it again.

Job 41:15 states that the scales of leviathan are his pride and are shut up together with a close seal. One is so near to another that no air can come between them. In the scripture, air, breath and wind are synomymous with the Holy Spirit.

The reason people get so shut in is because of the effects of leviathan's tight coils around them, inhibiting the moving of the Spirit. They cannot hear or discern the Spirit and they say they never get a word from the Lord or move in the gifts. The reason is that no air of the Spirit is able to get in because this demon has such a strangle hold. The scales are joined one to another and cannot be sundered.

Another way of stating this is that he looks down on all who are haughty; he is a king over all those who are proud. Pride and leviathan are practically synonymous. It is hard to separate them because pride causes that stony heart to close the scales and folds together blocking the Spirit of God from entering. Some sit listening, but not understanding or hearing the Word of God. Leviathan's most crucial work is in the area of keeping people from receiving the things of God and of the Spirit.

You may say you have no pride but rebellious pride often hides. Leviathan is sneaky and subtle and can easily hide himself. He can twist, writhe and slip out of the way; causing one to reject dependence on God and subjection to God. He is quick to attribute to self the honor due to God, therefore this pride is the very root and essence of all sin.
 
SPIRIT OF LEVIATHAN / PRIDE
Job 41 is the key passage on leviathan. Most of the people who have this powerful spirit never get deliverance because one of his chief jobs is to block deliverance.

Job 41:8 says that when we lay our hands on leviathan we will remember the battle and will not do it again.

Job 41:15 states that the scales of leviathan are his pride and are shut up together with a close seal. One is so near to another that no air can come between them. In the scripture, air, breath and wind are synomymous with the Holy Spirit.

The reason people get so shut in is because of the effects of leviathan's tight coils around them, inhibiting the moving of the Spirit. They cannot hear or discern the Spirit and they say they never get a word from the Lord or move in the gifts. The reason is that no air of the Spirit is able to get in because this demon has such a strangle hold. The scales are joined one to another and cannot be sundered.

Another way of stating this is that he looks down on all who are haughty; he is a king over all those who are proud. Pride and leviathan are practically synonymous. It is hard to separate them because pride causes that stony heart to close the scales and folds together blocking the Spirit of God from entering. Some sit listening, but not understanding or hearing the Word of God. Leviathan's most crucial work is in the area of keeping people from receiving the things of God and of the Spirit.

You may say you have no pride but rebellious pride often hides. Leviathan is sneaky and subtle and can easily hide himself. He can twist, writhe and slip out of the way; causing one to reject dependence on God and subjection to God. he is quick to attribute to self the honor due to God, therefore this pride is the very root and essence of all sin.
If my gifts, and my fellowship with God by the Holy Spirit had dried up maybe there would be some application of what you say here to me. But as it is, that has not happened.
 
SPIRIT OF LEVIATHAN / PRIDE
Job 41 is the key passage on leviathan. Most of the people who have this powerful spirit never get deliverance because one of his chief jobs is to block deliverance.

Job 41:8 says that when we lay our hands on leviathan we will remember the battle and will not do it again.

Job 41:15 states that the scales of leviathan are his pride and are shut up together with a close seal. One is so near to another that no air can come between them. In the scripture, air, breath and wind are synomymous with the Holy Spirit.

The reason people get so shut in is because of the effects of leviathan's tight coils around them, inhibiting the moving of the Spirit. They cannot hear or discern the Spirit and they say they never get a word from the Lord or move in the gifts. The reason is that no air of the Spirit is able to get in because this demon has such a strangle hold. The scales are joined one to another and cannot be sundered.

Another way of stating this is that he looks down on all who are haughty; he is a king over all those who are proud. Pride and leviathan are practically synonymous. It is hard to separate them because pride causes that stony heart to close the scales and folds together blocking the Spirit of God from entering. Some sit listening, but not understanding or hearing the Word of God. Leviathan's most crucial work is in the area of keeping people from receiving the things of God and of the Spirit.

You may say you have no pride but rebellious pride often hides. Leviathan is sneaky and subtle and can easily hide himself. He can twist, writhe and slip out of the way; causing one to reject dependence on God and subjection to God. He is quick to attribute to self the honor due to God, therefore this pride is the very root and essence of all sin.
Do you even read the posts that you respond to here? Unless you can offer some kind of logical, rational reason how this applies to the conversation at hand, it seems as with so many of your posts in this thread, that this has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING we have been discussing. Please begin to adhere to ToS 2.4 which states in part "Please refrain from taking a thread too far off topic." You have been pushing an agenda of not being able to "serve God and mammon" which is a subject you can continue to discuss in another thread where that is already being discussed, but this thread is not even close to that subject.
 
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