Bible Study Has God blinded some folks so that they cannot understand His Word?

[HalleluYAH]

If so, why?

Romans 11:8 According as it is written (Isaiah 29:10), God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day.

Matthew 13:9-11
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Also,

Acts 28:25-27
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Then, too,

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

That's because most of the world is deaf and blind, spiritually speaking, of course. Nothing new under the sun.

 

[Drew]

Is so, why?

Romans 11:8 According as it is written (Isaiah 29:10), God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day.

This text from Romans is part of Paul's analysis of why his fellow Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah. As such, it has no broader relevance - it is a part of a very specific analysis of the role of Israel leading up to the Cross.

So while it may be true that God "blinds" people nowadays for whatever reason, this particular text has nothing to say to that possibility.

 

[Brother Mike]

Is so, why?

Romans 11:8 According as it is written (Isaiah 29:10), God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day.

Matthew 13:9-11
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

God is not causing anyone not to understand.

For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
(Isa 29:10-13)

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
(Rom 11:7-11)

The Problem in both cases is Israel. It's not that God is trying to hide things from them, their problem is that they never asked questions. They don't ask questions, because they assume they already know.

And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
(Joh 9:40-41)

The Problem is they claim to know, and they don't know. That is even the problem today, if you believe you already know, then you might miss out on something you could have obtained, it's the same spirit of blindness and heaviness.

Jesus said nothing is hide from us that shall not be manifested, and nothing is kept secret from us, but is shall come abroad. In James we are told Any man on the planet can ask God for wisdom, and He will give it.

Nobody is asking though, nobody is seeking.

Tongues for example, I been around it a long time, and can promise every single believe should and can have this awesome tool for praying. What I get instead is those who resist knowledge though ignorance, claiming they know more, though they don't even speak in tongues. Pretty stupid to think you know more about something you don't even operate in, as opposed to someone that does.

That is how this spirit of blindness works, it makes people rock stupid, and makes them believe they know enough, or already know. This is Israel issue on what they think they know about Jesus.

Jesus spoke in parables, and it confused the religious leaders, but He had many Jews who did understand and did follow him everywhere.

 

[Drew]

God is not causing anyone not to understand....
The Problem in both cases is Israel. It's not that God is trying to hide things from them, their problem is that they never asked questions. They don't ask questions, because they assume they already know.

Not sure what your position is. I believe the Scriptures are clear - God has indeed "blinded" people in the sense that He has actively intervened and caused those people to become hardened. I don't dispute that such people have perhaps started down the road of turning from God. But, uncomfortable though it is to many of us, the Bible seems pretty clear: God is indeed an active, causal agent in the hardening of hearts. In Romans 9 to 11 in particular, Paul argues that God has very intentionally hardened most Jews in service of His grand plan of redemption.

 

[turnorburn]

If so why?

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

tob

 

[LovethroughDove]

John 3:19-21 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

Blind is intertwined with darkness. The Light is intertwined with God. That is why Jesus said that if you follow him you will never be in darkness.

Darkness cannot comprehend the Light, and therefore they are blind. That is also why Jesus mentions blind-guides that people follow and they fall into the pit.

 

[Drew]

If so why?

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

tob

With specific respect to the blinding of Israel described by Paul in Romans 9 to 11 (particularly 11), I agree with the argument of NT Wright: God was intentionally drawing sin, understand as a force or power, onto national Israel so that it could then be focused on her representative, Jesus. With sin thus "lured" onto Jesus, it is there condemned and defeated.

In short, God has used Israel as "bait" to corner sin, and then defeat it. Paul argues that this is the fulfillment of the covenantal promise that Israel will be a blessing to all nations. Strangely, the way she has done this is by being a self-sacrificial repository for the sin of the world.

Of course, there are other examples of people being hardened, not least Pharoah.

 

[Brother Mike]

Not sure what your position is. I believe the Scriptures are clear - God has indeed "blinded" people in the sense that He has actively intervened and caused those people to become hardened. I don't dispute that such people have perhaps started down the road of turning from God. But, uncomfortable though it is to many of us, the Bible seems pretty clear: God is indeed an active, causal agent in the hardening of hearts. In Romans 9 to 11 in particular, Paul argues that God has very intentionally hardened most Jews in service of His grand plan of redemption.

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
(Jud 1:7)

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
(Eph 4:18-19)

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

1Jn_4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

There is a spirit of error, there is a Kingdom of Darkness. God is not blinding anyone, because anything that comes from above is peaceful, full of Wisdom, gentle, easy to understand.

God shows mercy, had mercy on Pharaoh, set Pharaoh up, Endured with him long, but there is a point where someone wants nothing to do with what is right. They give themselves over to it, and God is not going to stop them. It just takes God to give up on them, and through that the wrong spirits gain entrance. In effect, without God helping, and trying to get them to see, there is no buffer for the wrong spirits to come in and invade.

God does not take pleasure even if the wicked die, nor is God willing that anyone should perish.

 

[Drew]

There is a spirit of error, there is a Kingdom of Darkness. God is not blinding anyone, because anything that comes from above is peaceful, full of Wisdom, gentle, easy to understand.

The fact that God gives people over to certain things at certain times does not mean He does not actively harden people as well. The Bible is quite clear: God does indeed harden hearts in some contexts:

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. [Romans 9:18, NASB]

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? [Romans 9:22, NASB]

just as it is written,"God gave them a spirit of stupor, Eyes to see not and ears to hear not, [Romans 11:8]

But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today. [Deuteronomy 2:30]

What is your response? The texts all very clearly have God as an active agent of hardening.

 

[Brother Mike]

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
(2Ti 2:20-21)

My response is, that Judgement, is Not God himself doing the hardening. It gives place to the spirit that is blinding the minds of those in this World.

But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
(Heb 3:13)

There are a whole lot of things that harden hearts, like violating your own conscience, sin as in the scripture above. Even Pharaoh, He could have purged himself, and became a vessel to dishonour, not a vessel to be made an example of. Even God talking with Moses said, I believe it will take a strong hand against the King. God know's who he is dealing with concerning Pharaoh, and Pharaoh hardened his own heart first.

A big issue with Hebrew is the translations of Passive tense forms. Translators really messed this up. A lot of God causing is really God allowing.

2Sa_12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

The Lord really make the Baby sick? We see this in one passage telling us God made David number the troops, and another says It was Satan who gets the blame.

With a whole lot of other scriptures, it's clear to me that it's not God who is to blame, but the People who just won't do right. Also Judgement, gives place to the enemy, who is the author of confusion.

The way the Hebrew was translated with verbs, we see Pharaoh Harden his own heart, and then God takes the rap. It can't be both, and it would take a expert in Hebrew to sort it all out.

One thing is clear though, Paul said God will harden who He will harden. The Greek had no such issues, now the question would be, what caused that person to get to that place, and What did God do to harden that heart?
Paul also said God put up with Pharaoh a long time, so what road leads to having God set against you?

In Thess, those who reject the truth at the time of the end, God sends a strong delusion that they might believe a lie. (What is God sending?) I don't believe it's God doing this personally.

Paul turned such a one over to Satan, for the destruction of the Flesh. It was not God who was called on to destroy him, It was Mr. Devil.

So while looking at all these examples, on God giving over, God hardening, Satan sent to do the dirty work. We make our conclusions.

Since I don't believe any scripture can contradict.

Jas_3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

And I have evidence of God's judgement allow Satan a place, and God turning his back, even Believers sending the devil out, then I have to go with that God does not harden peoples hearts as in Him doing it. If He did, then James lied, and that would not be possible.

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
(Jer 29:11)

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

There could be several reasons. One could be thir own sin, and God allows their sin to lead that way, even to push it in that direction, another could be out of using person as a message. The pharaoh that received all the plagues in Egypt and chased the Isrealites is an example of God using his hardened heart to give more of a witness to God's power. And sometimes I think it could be a combination of a path away from God, a path of sin, and using the hardened heart as a witness in a way. With David being e posed to King Saul's downward path of madness, and later Saul's chase of David, the hardened heart is probabley why Saul didn't just understand right away and be reunited with God and follow Him again.

But honestly. There's larger elements then just indivual stories too. As societies harden and soften thir hearts there's culture, philosophy, reasoning, understanding, and misunderstanding that affects how we think. So why a culture of hardened hearts exists, I have no idea.

 

[smaller]

If so, why?

Romans 11:8 According as it is written (Isaiah 29:10), God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day.

That's because most of the world is deaf and blind, spiritually speaking, of course. Nothing new under the sun.

Deep subject. Anytime the Sovereignty of God is upheld, people look at the evil of the world and laugh. They never consider that there might be other things going on in the earth, such as the judgment of Satan and his messengers, to the which they will laugh even further OR they'll come at you. It's a scripturally predictable response, actually. Which does, in an odd way, confirm God's Construct and faith in the process. Try loving your neighbors as yourself sometime. You may quickly find they'll show you hatred for no reasons. Luke 21:17

When Stephen dressed down the religious leaders of his day, people think he was only addressing men. He wasn't. The devils in those men reacted just as they are programmed to do, and killed him. Yet Stephen, perceiving of this matter, in his dying breath, asked God not to hold it to their charge. So Stephen KNEW the forgiveness of God was to the people. That doesn't speak to their entirety. We know they were also blinded by the god of this world. So, one has to look past the flesh, the surface quotients in these matters. 2 Cor. 4:4. And when any believer does, the first location to look is unto ourselves. Paul did this, and his findings imho are quite astounding. Stuff you'll never hear in church, because it's "offensive" to the religiously blinded. 2 Cor. 12:7, Mark 4:15. Believers themselves not only DO NOT take these scriptural facts personally, they CAN NOT. They too are in fact partly blinded, by Gods Own Intentions in judgments.

These adverse spirits, the devil and his messengers operate no differently today than they did from the beginning. And God is entirely consistent in how He dealt and DEALS with them.

So, as believers, we say, WHY did God make such a construct? There are several reasons given in the scriptures, some of which are that we would come to know unmerited favor aka Grace. And Mercy. And Hope, in the midst of this present wicked generation. And of course, a quality of love, which is longsuffering. All of these things are perceived by a setting that is adverse to God in Christ. Therefore evil is His Servant, and He will prove to be, by His Divine GOODNESS, far Superior to any of same.

James 2:13
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

His Sword Swings both ways.

 

[Drew]

My response is, that Judgement, is Not God himself doing the hardening. It gives place to the spirit that is blinding the minds of those in this World.

But this is simply not what the texts actually say:

But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today. [Deuteronomy 2:30, NASB]

Brother Mike, what agent is performing the hardening in this text?
What agent "made" the heart of this person obstinate?

I will be very interested to see your answers to these questions. And please do answer them, they are perfectly clear, understandable questions.

No one, least of all me, is denying that probably 99 % of the time, God does not harden anybody. The fact that you can post all sorts of texts about we are fully responsible for the hardening of our hearts does not mean this is always the case. This is really quite clear: If I write "Smoking causes lung cancer", am I saying that all cases of lung cancer are caused by smoking? Of course not! So when we read this text:

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
(Eph 4:18-19)

.......we are likewise not justified in concluding that in all cases, it is the person who is the sole causal agent in their hardening

The texts I posted say what they say!! - God is sometimes an active agent of hardening.

Not only do the texts clearly express this, there is often a clear surrounding context that makes it clear that God has a clear plan in mind for the hardening He (God) is causing. I will get to some of those in later posts.

 

[Brother Mike]

But this is simply not what the texts actually say:

But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today. [Deuteronomy 2:30, NASB]

Brother Mike, what agent is performing the hardening in this text?
What agent "made" the heart of this person obstinate?

I will be very interested to see your answers to these questions. And please do answer them, they are perfectly clear, understandable questions.

No one, least of all me, is denying that probably 99 % of the time, God does not harden anybody. The fact that you can post all sorts of texts about we are fully responsible for the hardening of our hearts does not mean this is always the case. This is really quite clear: If I write "Smoking causes lung cancer", am I saying that all cases of lung cancer are caused by smoking? Of course not! So when we read this text:

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
(Eph 4:18-19)

.......we are likewise not justified in concluding that in all cases, it is the person who is the sole causal agent in their hardening

The texts I posted say what they say!! - God is sometimes an active agent of hardening.

Not only do the texts clearly express this, there is often a clear surrounding context that makes it clear that God has a clear plan in mind for the hardening He (God) is causing. I will get to some of those in later posts.

I already said, I am not convinced the Hebrew gets the Tenses correct, It's mostly God just standing by, doing nothing. God's Judgement also gives place to the devil. This is one of those Cases someone will say, but the scripture says this, and it does, but you also have to understand there is scripture contrary to pinning the blame on God. We don't ignore those either.

So, If we give give ourselves over to Lasciviousness, and God sometimes just hardens peoples hearts, and the devil is going around deceiving and making people hard, and Just because scripture comes to pass, and as Jesus said the Love of many will grow cold. We don't have a whole lot going for us.

I submit though, it's not God's fault, taking all the evidence into account.

Act_24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

it takes constant Guard and work, to not be offended at God or man. Mark 4, Jesus said they receive the Word with Gladness, but persecution for the Word sake comes and they are offended. It's normally at God for not doing what they thought God should do.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
(1Ti 4:1-2)

The Word says some will depart from faith, and have their conscience seared. That is in a way God's fault, because if God said Nobody would have a choice to depart from faith, then nobody would.

King Sihon, His heart was already against God. Like Pharaoh, God gives them over to it, so they are no longer sitting on the fence, they get so upset, they respond. Both Sihon and Pharaoh already started set against God and His people.

These are only a couple cases here, and both men started out on the opposite of What God wanted. God's normal operation is to send a angelic servant, good or bad to go stir things up. We only see this when someone attempts to pose a threat to God's people, like the Angel that killed Herod in the streets who was against Paul.

2Ch_32:21 And the LORD sent an angel, which cut off all the mighty men of valour, and the leaders and captains in the camp of the king of Assyria. So he returned with shame of face to his own land. And when he was come into the house of his god, they that came forth of his own bowels slew him there with the sword.

And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.
(Act 12:22-23)

So if someone gets Smitten of the Lord, there is a reason for it. Every time it's someone who Oppose God's People.

So again, I submit that God is just not Hardening hearts, even a small percentage. There are reasons, and as believers we can avoid coming against God by following the warnings in scriptures.

If you want to say God is at times hardening hearts, or Smitting with Angels, then know you don't have to fall into the Smitten group, and without God's judgement and intervention, we His people would be over run. To avoid all that, become his People, and do what He says do.

Mike.

 

[Drew]

I already said, I am not convinced the Hebrew gets the Tenses correct, It's mostly God just standing by, doing nothing. God's Judgement also gives place to the devil. This is one of those Cases someone will say, but the scripture says this, and it does, but you also have to understand there is scripture contrary to pinning the blame on God. We don't ignore those either.

If you wish to argue that there is an error in the translation of the texts, then please do so. But to say that there is one without making the case, will not be convincing to a discriminating reader. The texts I posted clearly place God in the role of actively hardening hearts, even if the person being hardened has also played a role.

..but you also have to understand there is scripture contrary to pinning the blame on God. We don't ignore those either

Of course, I agree. But your general argument appears to be this:

Since we have scripture that identifies an agent other than God as the cause of hardening, we need to reject the texts that do indeed place God in the role of a hardener.

To be fair, and as per the above, you also raise the possibility of a translation problem. Well please make the relevant case.

For my part, my general view is this:

We have texts that identify agents other than God as the cause of hardening and we have texts that identify God as the agent of hardening. Therefore, we must accept that both are true since we can do so without contradiction - we can say that in some cases God is an agent of hardening.

I still think the only way your view can be maintained is to show that the "God hardened X" texts contain a translation error.

 

[Drew]

King Sihon, His heart was already against God. Like Pharaoh, God gives them over to it, so they are no longer sitting on the fence, they get so upset, they respond. Both Sihon and Pharaoh already started set against God and His people.

I do not dispute any of this. But you have a big problem. Even though all you say above may well be true, the text says that God made his heart obstinate, that God hardened His Spirit. So no matter what else is the case, we still have a clear claim that God is an active contributor to the hardening, not that He just "allowed it to happen"

How can you possibly deny what the verse about Sihon says without implicitly saying the Scripture has errors in it, or that there has been a translation error? Appealing to a "big picture" argument that people generally harden their own hearts stills leaves you in the position of having to explain the texts I posted which show this is not always the case.

 

[Drew]

So if someone gets Smitten of the Lord, there is a reason for it. Every time it's someone who Oppose God's People.

The fact you find these other cases - in which God is an agent of "smiting" and in which God's motive is to deal with someone who opposes God's people - is not grounds for denying the plain reading of the texts I provided.

How do you know that the only context in which God might act as a "smiter" is one where the issue is dealing with someone who opposes God's people?

I trust you realize that I fully agree that in all cases - even the ones where we have to accept that God contributed to the hardening - the person who was hardened freely choose to start down that path on their own.

 

[Brother Mike]

I do not dispute any of this. But you have a big problem. Even though all you say above may well be true, the text says that God made his heart obstinate, that God hardened His Spirit. So no matter what else is the case, we still have a clear claim that God is an active contributor to the hardening, not that He just "allowed it to happen"

How can you possibly deny what the verse about Sihon says without implicitly saying the Scripture has errors in it, or that there has been a translation error? Appealing to a "big picture" argument that people generally harden their own hearts stills leaves you in the position of having to explain the texts I posted which show this is not always the case.

As I stated, I am not convinced the translation is correct when it comes to the Hebrew Passive verbs. God caused, God allowed. It's clear, God was involved though, I am not denying that. If the tense is Wrong, then it's like the other text, God sent a spirit, as He did in other cases.

Some of the scriptures are not translated very well, and you should know this, Hebrew Tenses have always provided issues, but we can look at the overall operation of God, and not have to miss anything.

We also have the Writers at the time, and their revelation. God made David number the Troops, or Satan did? Both are correct, but it leads to some misunderstanding to those who are unlearned.

Believe what you like, Paul said God will harden who he will harden. We have to look at what lead up to that and way. If anything, we could agree that God just does not pick on people, but people end up with what they have chosen.

Mike.

 

[Drew]

As I stated, I am not convinced the translation is correct when it comes to the Hebrew Passive verbs. God caused, God allowed.

Fair enough, but what is your case? Do you not agree that you cannot legitimately reach a conclusion about a translation error just because the translation produces a text that does not fit into your set of beliefs about matters of doctrine?

Some of the scriptures are not translated very well, and you should know this,...

I do know this and I have used this very line of argument in a number of contexts, not least the deeply misleading "my kingdom is not of this world" saying in John 18. But, and this is the point, I always provide an actual argument for why I think there has been a translation error. And more to the point, that argument is not simply that the translation is inconsistent with other verses - you need to show that the original greek/Hebrew version of the text in question is not faithfully preserved in the translation.

Hebrew Tenses have always provided issues, but we can look at the overall operation of God, and not have to miss anything.

Again, it is not a valid argument to post a lot of texts about people hardening their own hearts and use this as the grounds for rejecting a text that refers to a specific case where God is clearly an active agent of hardening. That's like saying smoking is always the sole cause of lung cancer just because a lot of experts say "smoking causes lung cancer". Yes, God usually never hardens a heart. But we have texts that claim that sometimes He does. And we need to take those texts seriously.

Believe what you like, Paul said God will harden who he will harden.

It's not a question of me believing "what I like" - I don't like the idea that God hardens. But some texts say that He does,

We have to look at what lead up to that and way. If anything, we could agree that God just does not pick on people, but people end up with what they have chosen.

I have already agreed that even when God does harden, the hardened person took the first steps.

 

[Brother Mike]

Fair enough, but what is your case? Do you not agree that you cannot legitimately reach a conclusion about a translation error just because the translation produces a text that does not fit into your set of beliefs about matters of doctrine?


I do know this and I have used this very line of argument in a number of contexts, not least the deeply misleading "my kingdom is not of this world" saying in John 18. But, and this is the point, I always provide an actual argument for why I think there has been a translation error. And more to the point, that argument is not simply that the translation is inconsistent with other verses - you need to show that the original greek/Hebrew version of the text in question is not faithfully preserved in the translation.


Again, it is not a valid argument to post a lot of texts about people hardening their own hearts and use this as the grounds for rejecting a text that refers to a specific case where God is clearly an active agent of hardening. That's like saying smoking is always the sole cause of lung cancer just because a lot of experts say "smoking causes lung cancer". Yes, God usually never hardens a heart. But we have texts that claim that sometimes He does. And we need to take those texts seriously.


It's not a question of me believing "what I like" - I don't like the idea that God hardens. But some texts say that He does,


I have already agreed that even when God does harden, the hardened person took the first steps.

Well, I don't like to ever say "It's a translation Error" Just because it does not fit my Doctrine. I don't like folk using that on me, and they go find a translation that better suites what they want to believe.

Since we agree it's the people that have taken the first steps into God getting involved to harden their hearts, since God does have to Judge, and since God does get involved, then it's going to have to be good enough. I would like to say God does not kill people, but that did not stop him from sending one angel and wiping out a whole army for His people.

I get your point, I make man responsible for following God. I don't put the blame on God, ever. So, I can see your concern mentioning the Tense translating. Someone did the same thing to me with this verse.

Psa_78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

They told me you can't limit God, and the scripture says you can.

Again and again they tempted God, And pained the Holy One of Israel.
(Psa 78:41)

So, I take the other side, and say the KJV is correct, as they did not enter in because of their unbelief, nothing God did to them. Two can't walk together unless they be agreed upon, and if you won't agree with God, then you stop God from getting involved in your own life.

Some believe there is nothing we can do to stop or limit God.

If we can conclude that it's man who has taken the first step, then we are all good. I have looked at Pharaoh, and God was really good to him. God used him to gather his people and multiply them for 400 years, and God watched over Egypt. When it was time to go, you can hear it in God's voice that He would have rather just have Pharaoh let them go.