Can you think of a time when God's will was made known but in the end, because of man's failure or limitation, God settled for something less than which he originally intended?
Bible Study Has God ever changed his perfect will to accomodate man?
- Thread starter Jethro Bodine
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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cyberjosh
Member
God's will remains constant and He will get done what He intends to accomplish ultimately and regardless of external factors, but the time periods and methods in which He chooses to accomplish that perfect will can adapt depending on the human response to God. He is very patient, for example, with the tares among the wheat (for now) so as to not uproot the righteous so that they lose heart. He could call in that final harvest at any time, but chooses to delay it (for a period only known to Him) for the sake of the righteous. One great example though is when God was burning with anger against Israel at Mt. Sinai for worshiping the golden calf and he threatened to destroy all of Israel then. But wait.... could He do that without breaking His promise that Israel would become a nation and inhabit the land of Canaan? Actually yes, and he told Moses how:
"Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation." (Exodus 32:10)
God could have destroyed all the Israelites except for Moses then and raised up the promised people and inheritance solely from Moses, but because of Moses' intercession God chose not to destroy them. Either way God would have actually accomplished His will to "take you as my own people, and I will be your God" (Exodus 6:7). He would have made a people for His own sake anyway according to His will, but the method was variable as to how to accomplish it. The only thing that I would say was never variable or subject to negotiation though was that Jesus (God incarnate) must come in the flesh, be crucified, raised from the dead, and be exalted to redeem mankind from their sin. I don't know if the moment in history (during the time of the Roman empire) that God chose to send His son was fixed or not, but that it was going to happen was certain and unalterable.
You could say that God anticipates all the 'what-if' scenarios in advance because of His foreknowledge, however we cannot lose view that man has a freewill and responsiblity for responding to the things that God does. And God does make some decisions based on man's response. His will however (the topic you have broached here) is invariable and is not subject to change by anything that man can do.
God Bless,
Josh
"Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation." (Exodus 32:10)
God could have destroyed all the Israelites except for Moses then and raised up the promised people and inheritance solely from Moses, but because of Moses' intercession God chose not to destroy them. Either way God would have actually accomplished His will to "take you as my own people, and I will be your God" (Exodus 6:7). He would have made a people for His own sake anyway according to His will, but the method was variable as to how to accomplish it. The only thing that I would say was never variable or subject to negotiation though was that Jesus (God incarnate) must come in the flesh, be crucified, raised from the dead, and be exalted to redeem mankind from their sin. I don't know if the moment in history (during the time of the Roman empire) that God chose to send His son was fixed or not, but that it was going to happen was certain and unalterable.
You could say that God anticipates all the 'what-if' scenarios in advance because of His foreknowledge, however we cannot lose view that man has a freewill and responsiblity for responding to the things that God does. And God does make some decisions based on man's response. His will however (the topic you have broached here) is invariable and is not subject to change by anything that man can do.
God Bless,
Josh
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Elijah674
Guest
Very good! (had to respond);)
Samuel felt badly when Israel wanted to have a King & God told him that it was He that was rejected not Samuel. (1 Sam. 8:7-8)
And after Exod. 19:19 the Lord's people asked that God NO Longer speak Himself to them, (Exod. 20:19-22) and God again stopped doing so after Deut. 5:22 was completed. But the point is that God has done as the people requested again! (ibid 24-31.)
And yet, even as you say about God destroying the most & starting over again with Moses, is not the bottom/line that He did do so, but not Himself, except by just allowing mankind to destroy themself by rejecting God & freely choosing satan's evil?
Even with the pre/flood ones, (of Gen. 6:3) the Holy Spirit was Striving with these ones for 120 years along with Noah's preaching. (2 Peter 2:5 'of righteousness')
And as sin seperates mankind from God as seen in Cain's new 'desire' on through THE BOOK!
(Rev. 17:1-5) And as you say, God did give the free choice + our REQUIRED needs to Lovingly Obey! (Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9) And these needs were all being freely by choice supplied, yet still, sin (not the Lord's doing, but only allowing) leaves only a very small 'Remnant' from start to finish who will be saved. So you are right on!
Freewill is the only way that God will have Eternity from earth's close forward! Loving OBEDIENCE! Nah. 1:9Note: Rev. 12
[15] And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
[16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
--Elijah
What made me bring up the subject was a post I read somewhere defending women in leadership and Bible examples being used to support the argument. Long story short, it made me think about the times in the Bible God laid aside the way he wanted something done in order to accommodate man's resistance or failure in a situation.
There are two examples concerning Moses. He did not want to speak to Pharaoh himself. God got angry with him and appointed Aaron to speak instead. Also, in regard to the command about divorce. God/ Moses allowed it because of the hardness of men's hearts, all the while violating God's true intention that a man not divorce his wife.
There are more examples. Can you think of one?
cyberjosh
Member
Hello Jethro,
You make good points about those two instances with Moses, especially the one about divorce. In that same vein of God allowing things to occur despite desires or intentions to the contrary, He also allowed water to come out of the rock in the wilderness when Moses struck it twice (supposed to only be struck once) - in direct disobedience to God. Did God have to perform the miracle? No, especially if the instructions/conditions for the miracle were disobeyed. However God allowed the water to come forth anyway - probably for the sake of the parched Israelites.
Honestly you can find examples like this all throughout the historical narratives of the Old Testament. Elijah674 pointed out that God told Samuel to allow Israel to appoint a king even when it was not the proper time or way (even though there were provisions in the law/torah for kings - perhaps also specified in advance for the hard-hearted? who knows?).
Another example is that God also allowed the Levitical/Aaronic Priesthood to change (within the descendants of Aaron though) when God rejected Eli as being High Priest because of his neglect to correct the sins of his sons. God said to Eli:
"Thus says the LORD, ‘Did I not indeed reveal Myself to the house of your father when they were in Egypt in bondage to Pharaoh’s house? 28 Did I not choose them from all the tribes of Israel to be My priests, to go up to My altar, to burn incense, to carry an ephod before Me; and did I not give to the house of your father [Aaron a descendant of Levi] all the fire offerings of the sons of Israel? 29 Why do you kick at My sacrifice and at My offering which I have commanded in My dwelling, and honor your sons above Me, by making yourselves fat with the choicest of every offering of My people Israel?’ 30 Therefore the LORD God of Israel declares, ‘I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father should walk before Me forever’; but now the LORD declares, ‘Far be it from Me—for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me will be lightly esteemed. 31 Behold, the days are coming when I will break your strength and the strength of your father’s house so that there will not be an old man in your house" (1 Samuel 2:27-31).
But in this He still did not break his promise of the Levite Priesthood, saying, "Yet I will not cut off every man of yours from My altar....But I will raise up for Myself a faithful priest who will do according to what is in My heart and in My soul; and I will build him an enduring house, and he will walk before My anointed always" (vs. 33, 35). This was ultimately fulfilled in Christ but for the time being God raised up another High Priest in David's day. Eli was a descendant of Ithamar, son of Aaron, and the promise to remove Eli's line from the priesthood actually took a few generations (until Abiathar in Solomon's day), and the line of descent from Eli to the last of the High Priests descendant from Ithamar was Eli->Phinehas->Ahitub->Ahimilek->Abiathar. God however also kept His promise that He would (until Christ came) raise up another High Priest, and that priest was Zadok who was descended from Eleazar, son of Aaron. During David's reign both Zadok and Abiathar served as High Priests in tandem until Abiathar was finally rejected from the priesthood when Solomon became king. Thus God "changed the priesthood" without actually changing the fact that the priesthood and the High Priest had to be descended from Aaron, so he simply chose another line of descendants (Eleazar over Ithamar) from Aaron to accomplish His will until Christ came as the true High Priest.
I hope that is helpful.
God Bless,
Josh
You make good points about those two instances with Moses, especially the one about divorce. In that same vein of God allowing things to occur despite desires or intentions to the contrary, He also allowed water to come out of the rock in the wilderness when Moses struck it twice (supposed to only be struck once) - in direct disobedience to God. Did God have to perform the miracle? No, especially if the instructions/conditions for the miracle were disobeyed. However God allowed the water to come forth anyway - probably for the sake of the parched Israelites.
Honestly you can find examples like this all throughout the historical narratives of the Old Testament. Elijah674 pointed out that God told Samuel to allow Israel to appoint a king even when it was not the proper time or way (even though there were provisions in the law/torah for kings - perhaps also specified in advance for the hard-hearted? who knows?).
Another example is that God also allowed the Levitical/Aaronic Priesthood to change (within the descendants of Aaron though) when God rejected Eli as being High Priest because of his neglect to correct the sins of his sons. God said to Eli:
"Thus says the LORD, ‘Did I not indeed reveal Myself to the house of your father when they were in Egypt in bondage to Pharaoh’s house? 28 Did I not choose them from all the tribes of Israel to be My priests, to go up to My altar, to burn incense, to carry an ephod before Me; and did I not give to the house of your father [Aaron a descendant of Levi] all the fire offerings of the sons of Israel? 29 Why do you kick at My sacrifice and at My offering which I have commanded in My dwelling, and honor your sons above Me, by making yourselves fat with the choicest of every offering of My people Israel?’ 30 Therefore the LORD God of Israel declares, ‘I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father should walk before Me forever’; but now the LORD declares, ‘Far be it from Me—for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me will be lightly esteemed. 31 Behold, the days are coming when I will break your strength and the strength of your father’s house so that there will not be an old man in your house" (1 Samuel 2:27-31).
But in this He still did not break his promise of the Levite Priesthood, saying, "Yet I will not cut off every man of yours from My altar....But I will raise up for Myself a faithful priest who will do according to what is in My heart and in My soul; and I will build him an enduring house, and he will walk before My anointed always" (vs. 33, 35). This was ultimately fulfilled in Christ but for the time being God raised up another High Priest in David's day. Eli was a descendant of Ithamar, son of Aaron, and the promise to remove Eli's line from the priesthood actually took a few generations (until Abiathar in Solomon's day), and the line of descent from Eli to the last of the High Priests descendant from Ithamar was Eli->Phinehas->Ahitub->Ahimilek->Abiathar. God however also kept His promise that He would (until Christ came) raise up another High Priest, and that priest was Zadok who was descended from Eleazar, son of Aaron. During David's reign both Zadok and Abiathar served as High Priests in tandem until Abiathar was finally rejected from the priesthood when Solomon became king. Thus God "changed the priesthood" without actually changing the fact that the priesthood and the High Priest had to be descended from Aaron, so he simply chose another line of descendants (Eleazar over Ithamar) from Aaron to accomplish His will until Christ came as the true High Priest.
I hope that is helpful.
God Bless,
Josh
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Elijah674
Guest
Hi Jethro,I think that I agree with Josh in his first remarks. I see Christ's Word as Eternal Everlasting Gospel of Rev. 14:6 along with John 1:1-3 & 14. (when they were penned for us, matter's little for being Eternal Words of Truth) So does God change, or did He? No, it was all known by the Godhead in Eternity. (He & then They? yes, I even see this 'singular' as the Three united one God!) In Rom. 4:17 last part of the verse it say's to me that which God did do with even the God/Son in Eternity before it came to pass. (Prov. 8:30-31 in factual for/knowledge only) '.. before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.'
Perhaps most get lost here for what God can & indeed does at times do? Yet, to the thread topic of Their changing of Their mind? No, we have it that They do not. Mal. 4:6 + Christ in Heb. 13:8! So in a couple verses of Eternal Truth concept, that of Eze. 28 + Isa. 14:12-14 + Rev. 13 (and others) 'i' find that Lucifer was Perfect at his creation. And because the Godhead knew of his Free Choice from Eternity, that still did not have Them to change [Their] mind. Even Adam, (see Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15) was created Very Good, [Perfect] unless one thinks that God created faulty material? And I will never buy that!
Yet the material does have an Mind that is Free to choose! And at creation, this 'perfect' mind was not created perfectly [MATURE]. Other wise it would have been as an robot. So NO, the plan of creation from Lucifer on has always had this known by God. Actually, this is what earth 'courtyard' is all about, was sin the Godhead's doing?
Think of the Heb.s plural of other world's even (Heb. 1:2 + 11:3) and the angels who never fell + the ones who have? It might be possible for some to read Matt. 25:1-2 if they can get this far, to understand even more? Hosea 4:6 + Dan. 12:4 --Elijah
Perhaps most get lost here for what God can & indeed does at times do? Yet, to the thread topic of Their changing of Their mind? No, we have it that They do not. Mal. 4:6 + Christ in Heb. 13:8! So in a couple verses of Eternal Truth concept, that of Eze. 28 + Isa. 14:12-14 + Rev. 13 (and others) 'i' find that Lucifer was Perfect at his creation. And because the Godhead knew of his Free Choice from Eternity, that still did not have Them to change [Their] mind. Even Adam, (see Eccl. 1:9-10 + Eccl. 3:15) was created Very Good, [Perfect] unless one thinks that God created faulty material? And I will never buy that!
Yet the material does have an Mind that is Free to choose! And at creation, this 'perfect' mind was not created perfectly [MATURE]. Other wise it would have been as an robot. So NO, the plan of creation from Lucifer on has always had this known by God. Actually, this is what earth 'courtyard' is all about, was sin the Godhead's doing?
Think of the Heb.s plural of other world's even (Heb. 1:2 + 11:3) and the angels who never fell + the ones who have? It might be possible for some to read Matt. 25:1-2 if they can get this far, to understand even more? Hosea 4:6 + Dan. 12:4 --Elijah
I'm not sure you're capturing the thrust of the thread. We see in scripture where God wanted it one way, yet allowed another...even at the behest of mere humans! To me that speaks of his mercy, and a sensitivity to the weaknesses of frail flesh. A mercy that many in the church don't seem to see in God. I'm in no way saying we should debate God's will with him. What I am saying is sometimes God isn't as hard and unfeeling as many of us make him out to be. We can be a very hardened and polarized group of people in our doctrinal beliefs and dogmas. That is probably one of the biggest turnoff's to the world. Hardened doctrines polarized to an unreasonable extreme that tramples frail flesh and misrepresents the full qualities of the true God.
Rom_1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Accomodating man is not a good thing. God doesn't compromise in the end.
Accomodating man is not a good thing. God doesn't compromise in the end.
I'm curious how you would explain to someone God doing that, then.
I know I'm at risk for being misunderstood as trying to somehow justify having premarital sex, or be gay, or whatever, but believe me there is no such agenda being served here. The point is we somehow have misrepresented God by saying his word absolutely never, ever changes, or that he never, ever compromises (even if only temporarily) in the interests of frail flesh.
God does transform man's desires by making them His own. The city is a good example of this. The city was created by men as a place of rebellion...men banding together in order to exclude God. The tower of Babel is an example of this.
But God redeems the city in order to make the city His own...the new Jerusalem. So man starts off in a garden, but ends up in a city.
IMO God's grace allows this all the time. He began it in the Garden, as His perfect will was one thing, but His permissive will allowed another.
God doesn't kill us the moment we choose something less than what His perfect will would have wanted for us, does He? I mean, He can and maybe has as times...but there'd be alot of dead bodies lying around if He did all the time. ( In my younger days I was happy I wasn't God as there would be <POOF!> <POOF!> <POOF!!> all over the place :toofunny )
I do believe we can see a difference between God's perfect will and God's permissive will through the Bible as well.
God doesn't kill us the moment we choose something less than what His perfect will would have wanted for us, does He? I mean, He can and maybe has as times...but there'd be alot of dead bodies lying around if He did all the time. ( In my younger days I was happy I wasn't God as there would be <POOF!> <POOF!> <POOF!!> all over the place :toofunny )
I do believe we can see a difference between God's perfect will and God's permissive will through the Bible as well.
TO ALL OF YOU HERE,
Grace and peace! There is a question for all of you at the end here! Put first!
Mosaic laws, to 10 commandments, to just love GOD and your neighbor. HE definitely makes things easier for us because of our weak sin nature. FROM OT to NT. HE even repented/relented ( depends on the bible) from HIS own ways. Read closely. But, I will get some validity to that to get people reading faster:
Amos 7:1-6
1 This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: He was preparing swarms of locusts after the king’s share had been harvested and just as the late crops were coming up. 2 When they had stripped the land clean, I cried out, “Sovereign LORD, forgive! How can Jacob survive? He is so small!”
3 So the LORD relented.
“This will not happen,” the LORD said.
4 This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: The Sovereign LORD was calling for judgment by fire; it dried up the great deep and devoured the land. 5 Then I cried out, “Sovereign LORD, I beg you, stop! How can Jacob survive? He is so small!” 6 So the LORD relented.
JONAH 3:10
10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.
and so on.....but Josh and others made great examples as well. So, everyone understands this.
I agree that GOD still does what HE does. HE is the potter and we are the clay. HE is loving and is just giving us time to change, and leaving others to their desires. This is bothersome for me as a believer to see people left to their desires. Seeing people preaching HIS HOLY NAME and not even realizing the are doing things against HIM!! But these are the people JESUS says, " I never knew you!!":
MATTHEW 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Though nothing is permanent, and GOD can change anyone. Just to see people in that process is scary. Because, they influence others, and many spread that evil blindly. Really sad to see.
As far as the flesh thing. Honestly, I have to say that many dont see or dont want to see the TRUTH from ADAM and EVE to BABEL to LOT, SODOM and GEMORRAH, to many wives in a marriage, to just one, to divorces, to celebacies, eunuchs, Jesus, and weaknesses.
It takes a spiritual eye and a pure heart to see the real truth in this.
GOD through Paul mentions it when HE says:
1 CORINTHIANS 7:1-9
1 Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Here is where I step back and say to you all. There is a very powerful message here if you think back to ADAM and EVE to this point where Paul is talking. From all that what do you think GOD is saying to Paul about the actions of the flesh and marriage?? GOD gave me this answer while I was praying and fasting a while ago. I was like:shocked!:o;)ok, that made alot of sense. Not something my flesh wanted to hear, but my SPIRIT was very elated.
HE also told me that many will not understand it. I have only one Christian brother and sister ( and they are married) that gets it. They werent so happy as well inthe beginning, but now they see that it is what it is. Its really not something people want to understand or hear. But, please people answer that queston. Would love to see if GOD gives some of you the revelation. Here is the question again:
There is a very powerful message here if you think back to ADAM and EVE to this point where Paul is talking. From all that what do you think GOD is saying through Paul about the actions of the flesh and even marriage??
jesus4life
Grace and peace! There is a question for all of you at the end here! Put first!
Mosaic laws, to 10 commandments, to just love GOD and your neighbor. HE definitely makes things easier for us because of our weak sin nature. FROM OT to NT. HE even repented/relented ( depends on the bible) from HIS own ways. Read closely. But, I will get some validity to that to get people reading faster:
Amos 7:1-6
1 This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: He was preparing swarms of locusts after the king’s share had been harvested and just as the late crops were coming up. 2 When they had stripped the land clean, I cried out, “Sovereign LORD, forgive! How can Jacob survive? He is so small!”
3 So the LORD relented.
“This will not happen,” the LORD said.
4 This is what the Sovereign LORD showed me: The Sovereign LORD was calling for judgment by fire; it dried up the great deep and devoured the land. 5 Then I cried out, “Sovereign LORD, I beg you, stop! How can Jacob survive? He is so small!” 6 So the LORD relented.
JONAH 3:10
10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.
and so on.....but Josh and others made great examples as well. So, everyone understands this.
I agree that GOD still does what HE does. HE is the potter and we are the clay. HE is loving and is just giving us time to change, and leaving others to their desires. This is bothersome for me as a believer to see people left to their desires. Seeing people preaching HIS HOLY NAME and not even realizing the are doing things against HIM!! But these are the people JESUS says, " I never knew you!!":
MATTHEW 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Though nothing is permanent, and GOD can change anyone. Just to see people in that process is scary. Because, they influence others, and many spread that evil blindly. Really sad to see.
As far as the flesh thing. Honestly, I have to say that many dont see or dont want to see the TRUTH from ADAM and EVE to BABEL to LOT, SODOM and GEMORRAH, to many wives in a marriage, to just one, to divorces, to celebacies, eunuchs, Jesus, and weaknesses.
It takes a spiritual eye and a pure heart to see the real truth in this.
GOD through Paul mentions it when HE says:
1 CORINTHIANS 7:1-9
1 Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.
8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Here is where I step back and say to you all. There is a very powerful message here if you think back to ADAM and EVE to this point where Paul is talking. From all that what do you think GOD is saying to Paul about the actions of the flesh and marriage?? GOD gave me this answer while I was praying and fasting a while ago. I was like:shocked!:o
;)ok, that made alot of sense. Not something my flesh wanted to hear, but my SPIRIT was very elated. HE also told me that many will not understand it. I have only one Christian brother and sister ( and they are married) that gets it. They werent so happy as well inthe beginning, but now they see that it is what it is. Its really not something people want to understand or hear. But, please people answer that queston. Would love to see if GOD gives some of you the revelation. Here is the question again:
There is a very powerful message here if you think back to ADAM and EVE to this point where Paul is talking. From all that what do you think GOD is saying through Paul about the actions of the flesh and even marriage??
jesus4life
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