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[_ Old Earth _] Have evolutionists figured out...

If my theory be true, numberless intermediate varieties, linking most closely all of the species of the same group together must assuredly have existed... Consequently evidence of their former existence could be found only amongst fossil remains

Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species: A Facsimile of the First Edition, Harvard University Press, 1964, p. 179.

WELL LETS PUT IT TO THE TEST. INSTEAD OF WATCHING A MOVIE WATCH THIS 63:17 MINUTE DOCUMENTARY CALLED 'How Fossils Overturned Evolution - Last days of Darwanism'.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4i3cmEB2p4k

I'm going to be watching it myself. Should be very interesting.
 
Orion said:
Perhaps some really stupid questions.
I don't think the questions are stupid at all. I think stupidity coes not from ignorance of a subject but acting on ignorance in a subject.

I would like to comment on science and creationism. Originally, science supported it. People did calculation on how old the Earth and Sun could be. The sun could not be that old or else it would have burned (by fire) all of its energy. Likewise Earth was cooling down and properties of matter was known well enough to know that Earth could not have been more than a few thousand years old (or else there would be no lava.)

Evolution doesn't work well in this time frame so it was largely discounted. However, there was a huge discovery that changed all of this - radioactivity. Suddenly, the solar system got a lot older. The earth is heated by radioactive decay. The sun is powered by fusion. And people also realized that light has a finite speed, which implies an age to the universe. (For example, if the universe were only 10,000 years old, we would not be able to see our whole galaxy and definitely not be able to see other galaxies.)

Science goes where the evidence. When it pointed towards creationism, scientists went with it. When it pointed away, scientists followed the evidence. The discovery of radioactivity did not invalidate cooling models or fire models, it just showed that we did not understand things well enough.

Any chance that the few artifacts found for these stages that you just listed were (now bare with me) just a different type of primate that was created 6,000 years ago, with the rest of the animals, and mistaken for some "timeline of primate evolution"?
There is always a chance. Science is never about 100% truth. It is about modeling the universe as best as we can.

But from an evidence sense, this appears pretty solid to be human remains. Now it could be that God created us instantly and placed faked fossils, but I think that is pushing it.

One issue is that we can do a pretty good job dating the rocks these fossils come in. Unless radioactivity is different now than in the past, we know we are dealing with million year old stuff. If radioactivity were different, that would have been a huge change to all the laws in the universe.

The reason why I ask is that the YEC and Genesis one state that all animals were created at the same time, roughly 6,000 - 10,000 years ago, depending on who you ask. Could these types of Hom just be primate groups that just didn't survive very long, and that the MYA figures are very exaggerated? A lot of these fossils they have for a specific Hom group seem very close to what you'd see with the modern gorilla.
There are several reasons that is probably not the case. Most are very technical. Mainly evolution would not work on this short of a timescale. Evolution needs many generations to see changes.

It could be that God created a bunch of intelligent homminids and then killed them off in a flood. However, he would have had to hide signs of the flood as well and place the homminid fossils in the rock in a way that makes them look like they died in the order they would have evolved.

A interesting website that shows some of the prominent homminid fossils is here.

truth_will_prevail said:
'How Fossils Overturned Evolution - Last days of Darwanism'.
If fossils showed Darwinism was wrong, then scientists would abandon it. There are lots and lots of fossils and scientists are notdivided over the issue. Of all scientists, 95% believe in evolution. If you look at just the life scientists, over 99.9% believe in evolution. It is very hard to get that much consensus among scientists without some real hard evidence.

I would also like to point out that of all scientists, about 50% are religious (compared to 85% of the general population). So how do religious scientists deal with this (since they would naturally have a religious bias to reject evolution). They believe in theistic evolution. While I disagree with them on this, it shows how good the evidence must be.
 
If my theory be true, numberless intermediate varieties, linking most closely all of the species of the same group together must assuredly have existed... Consequently evidence of their former existence could be found only amongst fossil remains

Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species: A Facsimile of the First Edition, Harvard University Press, 1964, p. 179.

WELL LETS PUT IT TO THE TEST

Yes. If Darwin was wrong, there wouldn't be organisms that were intermediate between major groups. No Archaeopteryx, no Ambulocetus, no Acanthostega, etc.

But there are.

If Darwin was wrong, there wouldn't be a finely-graded series of organisms from Hyracotherium to Equus. But there is.

If Darwin was wrong, populations would not change when environments changed. But they do.

This is why the overwhelming majority of life scientists are Darwinists; there is no other way that can be taken seriously.

Incidentally, it is not quite 99.9% Darwinists. If you accept the data from the Discovery Institute, and compare it to the sample from Project Steve, it comes out to about 99.7%.
 
Quath, thank you for the information and the website. As I look at those fossils, they could be "just extinct primate species" that died out at an indeterminable distant past. Now, if they are buried in rock that is radioactively dated to older than YEC beliefs, then I would have to question (if YEC is correct, after all):

Why would radioactive decay in the surrounding rock show a much older date?
a. Radioactive decay isn't constant, but perhaps cyclical, it just so happens that it is decaying slower during the past few thousand years.
b. God created the appearance of extreme old age.

I can accept point (a.) as a possibility. After all, we are still pretty green when it comes to really understanding the natural world. It's apparent constancy, however, makes such an idea unfounded, of course.

I would never accept point (b.) as it would mean that God created an untruth. The apparent constant of radioactive decay and speed of light makes a very convincing case of an extremely old universe and earth. If God created with the appearance of age, it would:

1. be untrue.
2. be unnecessary.
3. cause confusion.

Even so, . . . I really just don't like the idea of man "evolving from these primitive primates". I don't like thinking that Iim just an evolved dirty primate. Plus, if that were the case, why would God choose to commune with just an animal? And one of the dirtiest and smelliest ones at that! I would have rather communed with . . . dolphins, or something much cleaner. :-?

There has to be something else that happened to account for who humans are. Perhaps some 6,000 - 10,000 years ago (after millions of years of God watching evolution happen), God took an seemingly advanced primate (us), and fundamentally changed us to create that which would have the brain capacity to understand the world and God, and created a spirit in us that will remain forever, having the ability to fully commune with the spiritual, where God resides.

Just thinking out loud here.
 
Orion said:
I can accept point (a.) as a possibility. After all, we are still pretty green when it comes to really understanding the natural world. It's apparent constancy, however, makes such an idea unfounded, of course.
We do have a pretty good understanding of how radioactivity works. If a lot of stuff is built up on this so if it were wrong, a lot of puzzle pieces would not fit. For example, we understand carbon dating a lot because we can compare to tree rings (and fossile tree rings) to show it going back for thousands of years. Also the stuff that makes up the earth (beyond iron) appears to have been created in one quick event several billion years ago (not in the Big Bang though, but from a nova of a star). We can see this from the relative decays of the isotopes.

I would never accept point (b.) as it would mean that God created an untruth.
I knew one guy who did accept (b). His justification was that Jesus turned the water into wine and the wine was good. The hallmark of good wine is aged wine. So God made the universe good (i.e. aged).

Even so, . . . I really just don't like the idea of man "evolving from these primitive primates". I don't like thinking that Iim just an evolved dirty primate. Plus, if that were the case, why would God choose to commune with just an animal? And one of the dirtiest and smelliest ones at that! I would have rather communed with . . . dolphins, or something much cleaner. :-?
Heh. Well, reality doesn't have to be what we like. It just has to be what is. But the creationist point of view is that man was created from dirty dust. I am not sure that is better. :)

I talked to a Christian that believed in evolution. He says it this way: "God says he made people, he just didn't tell us the recipe." So this guy sees it that God made people through evolution starting with "dust."

There has to be something else that happened to account for who humans are. Perhaps some 6,000 - 10,000 years ago (after millions of years of God watching evolution happen), God took an seemingly advanced primate (us), and fundamentally changed us to create that which would have the brain capacity to understand the world and God, and created a spirit in us that will remain forever, having the ability to fully commune with the spiritual, where God resides.
Yeah, that is an interesting point. I think there have been some sci-fi books that suggested this. But they treat God as an alien who finds Earth and modifies the people.
 
Well, actually, God would kinda have to be an extraterrestrial, would God? :lol:

Thanks for your replies.
 
Yes. If Darwin was wrong, there wouldn't be organisms that were intermediate between major groups. No Archaeopteryx, no Ambulocetus, no Acanthostega, etc.

But there are.

Could you show me proof. That is all fake my friend. If it really was real then it would be big news. And we all know the antics that evolutionist scientists go to. I can show you pictures of fossils that show NO change at all.

52.jpg


In short, according to Darwinism, life must be like a tree, with a common root, subsequently splitting up into different branches. And this hypothesis is constantly emphasized in Darwinist sources, where the concept of the "tree of life" is frequently employed. According to this tree concept, phyla-the fundamental units of classification between living things-came about by stages, as in the diagram to the left. According to Darwinism, one phylum must first emerge, and then the other phyla must slowly come about with minute changes over very long periods of time. The Darwinist hypothesis is that the number of animal phyla must have gradually increased in number. The diagram to the left shows the gradual increase in the number of animal phyla according to the Darwinian view.

According to Darwinism, life must have developed in this way. But is this really how it happened?

Definitely not. Quite the contrary: animals have been very different and complex since the moment they first emerged. All the animal phyla known today emerged at the same time, in the middle of the geological period known as the Cambrian Age. The Cambrian Age is a geological period estimated to have lasted some 65 million years, approximately between 570 to 505 million years ago. But the period of the abrupt appearance of major animal groups fit in an even shorter phase of the Cambrian, often referred to as the "Cambrian explosion." Stephen C. Meyer, P. A. Nelson, and Paul Chien, in a 2001 article based on a detailed literature survey, dated 2001, note that the "Cambrian explosion occurred within an exceedingly narrow window of geologic time, lasting no more than 5 million years."56 (harun yahya)


53a.jpg


The theory of evolution maintains that different groups of living things (phyla) developed from a common ancestor and grew apart with the passing of time. The diagram above states this claim: According to Darwinism, living things grew apart from one another like the branches on a tree.

53b.jpg


But the fossil record shows just the opposite. As can be seen from the diagram below, different groups of living things emerged suddenly with their different structures. Some 100 phyla suddenly emerged in the Cambrian Age. Subsequently, the number of these fell rather than rose (because some phyla became extinct).

If Darwin was wrong, populations would not change when environments changed. But they do.

Were did you get that from? If evolution was correct then there will be more people on this world then there are today.

This is why the overwhelming majority of life scientists are Darwinists; there is no other way that can be taken seriously.

Incidentally, it is not quite 99.9% Darwinists. If you accept the data from the Discovery Institute, and compare it to the sample from Project Steve, it comes out to about 99.7%.

Heres another video that might interest you. 'Lies In The Textbooks - Creationist Kent Hovind Reveals The Truth Abut Evolution.'

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9145885147
 
Orion said:
Well, actually, God would kinda have to be an extraterrestrial, would God? :lol:
Heh. TRue. :)

truth_will_prevail said:
If it really was real then it would be big news.
Not really. To people who believe, it is like saying there is further proof the Earth is round. To those that don't believe, they try to discount the evidence.

But the fossil record shows just the opposite. As can be seen from the diagram below, different groups of living things emerged suddenly with their different structures. Some 100 phyla suddenly emerged in the Cambrian Age. Subsequently, the number of these fell rather than rose (because some phyla became extinct).
This is a God of the Gaps type of argument. The basic idea is "Here is something we can not explain yet. Therefore it must be God." With time it is then explained and people go on to find a new mystery to say it is proof of God. These arguments fail over time, but they remain popular.

If you want a real view of the issue around this, Wikipedia has a pretty good article on it.

Heres another video that might interest you. 'Lies In The Textbooks - Creationist Kent Hovind Reveals The Truth Abut Evolution.'
I have taken many classes in biology and health physics that this stuff is like trying to show me a video on why the Earth is really flat. These videos do not change the idea that evolution is one of the most solid of sciences we have today.
 
Not really. To people who believe, it is like saying there is further proof the Earth is round. To those that don't believe, they try to discount the evidence.

Yes its like saying 2 + 2 = 4, but someone disagrees and says no it equals 3.lol. Islam has no disagreements with science on this issue about the earth being round, because it says it in the Quran.

I have taken many classes in biology and health physics that this stuff is like trying to show me a video on why the Earth is really flat. These videos do not change the idea that evolution is one of the most solid of sciences we have today.

I disagree with you that evolution is one of the strongest scientists today. I do disagree with some stuff of Kent Hovind. Like the big bang. I remember we were at school and the teacher who was a muslim convert mentioned the big bang theory. and people started laughing and then he turned back to us Muslims and said haven't you read your own Quran. A lot of the people were quite shocked.
 
truth_will_prevail said:
Islam has no disagreements with science on this issue about the earth being round, because it says it in the Quran.
Well, the Quran was also written much later when the Earth being round was a lot more accepted.

I disagree with you that evolution is one of the strongest scientists today. I do disagree with some stuff of Kent Hovind. Like the big bang. I remember we were at school and the teacher who was a muslim convert mentioned the big bang theory. and people started laughing and then he turned back to us Muslims and said haven't you read your own Quran. A lot of the people were quite shocked.
I had one teacher in high school who went to a Catholic school when he was young. The teacher refused to teach that the Earth wobbles on its axis because that would contradict part of the Bible.

A scientist I work with went to Catholic school. The school he went to said that there are two questions: "how" and "why." Science is for "why" and religion is for "how." When science and religion conflict it is because they are intruding on the wrong question.

I had a Jehovan Witness come to my door and give me a pamplet. What was interesting is that they believe in the Big Bang and quote Bible verses to "prove" it. However, you can easily look up other Christians who use Bible verses to "prove" the Big Bang did not happen.

Just some of my experiences...
 
Barbarian observes:
Yes. If Darwin was wrong, there wouldn't be organisms that were intermediate between major groups. No Archaeopteryx, no Ambulocetus, no Acanthostega, etc.

But there are.

Could you show me proof.

Sure:

One of the better Ambulocetids:
ambulocetus2.jpg


Note all the critical parts are existing in a single specimen.

Archaeopteryx:
Archaeopteryx.jpg


Note the feathers, on a dinosauran body, with a few bird features. The genus was originally interpreted as a small dinosaur, until they found one with feather impressions.

Acanthostega:
a1.gif


Note the fishlike skull and vertebrae (including lateral line system on skull)

That is all fake my friend.

They lied to you about that. They actually exist.

If it really was real then it would be big news.

It was huge news.

And we all know the antics that evolutionist scientists go to.

Don't know what you mean, but this time at least you shouldn't have trusted whoever told you that story.

I can show you pictures of fossils that show NO change at all.

Well, that might be interesting. Let's see them. I can think of some possible cases, over maybe tens of millions of years.

In short, according to Darwinism, life must be like a tree, with a common root, subsequently splitting up into different branches. And this hypothesis is constantly emphasized in Darwinist sources, where the concept of the "tree of life" is frequently employed. According to this tree concept, phyla-the fundamental units of classification between living things-came about by stages, as in the diagram to the left. According to Darwinism, one phylum must first emerge, and then the other phyla must slowly come about with minute changes over very long periods of time. The Darwinist hypothesis is that the number of animal phyla must have gradually increased in number.

Pretty much what the fossil record shows. However, there should be period of rapid evolution when the envirionment changes. One such occured in the Precambrian, and an even greater one happened at the start of the Cambrian.

The diagram to the left shows the gradual increase in the number of animal phyla according to the Darwinian view.

Note that the Darwinian diagram you used shows that there are periods of higher diversification. That has always been part of the theory (you picked a very old example)

According to Darwinism, life must have developed in this way.

Not according to the Darwinian chart you picked. Did you look at it?

Definitely not. Quite the contrary: animals have been very different and complex since the moment they first emerged.

Um, no. In the precambrian, extremely simple organisms appear, and become increasingly complex. There were no vertebrates, no plants, no fish, no crabs, no insects, no trees, no mammals. All that came gradually later. The first metazoans were rather primitive wormlike or jellyfishlike organisms. Then, just before the Cambrian, some of them evolved hard parts, and then a few evolved complete hard body coverings, and a rapid diversification occured.

They lied to you again.

All the animal phyla known today emerged at the same time, in the middle of the geological period known as the Cambrian Age.

Wrong again. Some of them did. But some of them occured at the beginning of the Cambrian, and others before the Cambrian.

Glenn Morton (a graduate of the Institute for Creation Research, btw) has an interesting page, wherein he debunks the story they told you.

Evidences of macroscopic life forms are now found as early as 680 myr ago in the form of worm burrows (Pagel, 1999, p. 881). And several modern phyla are now claimed to appear in the Precambrian and thus are not part of the supposed 'Cambrian Explosion.' These are:

Phylum Porifera (Sponges Brasier, Green and Shields, 1997, p. 303)

Phylum Mollusca (Fedonkin and Waggoner, 1997, p 868)
(This may be a proto-Mollusc rather than a true mollusc--Campbell 2001)

Phylum Annelida (Cloud and Glaessner, 1982, p. 788)

Phylum Cnidaria (Conway Morris, 1998, p. 29)

Phylum Arthropoda (Waggoner, 1996, p. 190)

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/cambevol.htm

The Cambrian Age is a geological period estimated to have lasted some 65 million years, approximately between 570 to 505 million years ago. But the period of the abrupt appearance of major animal groups fit in an even shorter phase of the Cambrian, often referred to as the "Cambrian explosion." Stephen C. Meyer, P. A. Nelson, and Paul Chien, in a 2001 article based on a detailed literature survey, dated 2001, note that the "Cambrian explosion occurred within an exceedingly narrow window of geologic time, lasting no more than 5 million years."56 (harun yahya)

Stephen Meyer, as you probably know is not a biologist, but a member of the Discovery Institute, a religious organization, whose doctrine is the official position of the Unification Church of Rev. Myung Son Moon. Haran Yahya is a Muslim creationist, with no trace of any academic qualifications whatever.

In fact, scientists once thought that a rapid diversification of almost all phyla (they never actually thought that all of them showed up at that time, because a few did appear even later) in the Cambrian, over a few tens of millions of years. Then the Vendian fauna was discovered in the precambrian, and it was clear that things weren't so simple.

Apparently, Meyer never got the word. But then, he isn't a biologist, and probably never learned about it.

The theory of evolution maintains that different groups of living things (phyla) developed from a common ancestor and grew apart with the passing of time. The diagram above states this claim: According to Darwinism, living things grew apart from one another like the branches on a tree.

It's not just the fossil record that shows this. If you do a diagram, showing relative similarities of DNA or cytochrome C, you'll get the same diagram. Even Linneaus, a creationist, inadvertently produced this tree when he invented the modern system of nomenclature. The only way to explain this data is common descent.

But the fossil record shows just the opposite.

See above. You've been rather badly misled.

Barbarian observes:
If Darwin was wrong, populations would not change when environments changed. But they do.

Were did you get that from?

Direct observations. A good example of how rapidly evolution works when the environment changes can be found in The Beak of the Finch. And it's very accessible to non-biologists.

If evolution was correct then there will be more people on this world then there are today.

I don't see how. But let's see your reasoning.

Barbarian observes:
This is why the overwhelming majority of life scientists are Darwinists; there is no other way that can be taken seriously.

Incidentally, it is not quite 99.9% Darwinists. If you accept the data from the Discovery Institute, and compare it to the sample from Project Steve, it comes out to about 99.7%.

Heres another video that might interest you. 'Lies In The Textbooks - Creationist Kent Hovind Reveals The Truth Abut Evolution.'

Since Hovind is in jail for among other things, lying, you surely understand that people aren't going to be giving him a great deal of credibility.
 
Barbarian observes:
Yes. If Darwin was wrong, there wouldn't be organisms that were intermediate between major groups. No Archaeopteryx, no Ambulocetus, no Acanthostega, etc.

But there are.

Are there really. So why haven't the monkeys of today evolved.

Why haven't they? Look at the following.

coelacanth_240mlyn.jpg


Coelecanth fossil of 240 million years

49.jpg


This bear (Ursus spelaeus), which species is still alive today, was discovered in the Ural Mountains in Russia. This fossil dates back 300,000 to 100,000 years.

54.jpg


Insect fossils dating back some 125 million years, belonging to 100 families and 500 different species, have been unearthed in the Chinese region of Hebei. No examples of such splendid variety and fine detail have been encountered anywhere else in the world. As can be seen in this photograph, there is exceedingly fine detail in the wings. The fossils obtained here clearly reveal that insects have undergone no change whatseover right down to the present day.


3 for 3. If you want more just ask.


Don't know what you mean, but this time at least you shouldn't have trusted whoever told you that story.

This is what im talking about.


The Dino-Bird Hoax
http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/natural ... _2_09.html

Piltdown Man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man

Ota Benga: I think i posted about this earlier.

Nebraska Man: A Pig's Tooth
http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/origin_of_man_16.html

I mean if there really were fossils that proved evolution these evolution scientists wouldn't have gone so far! This is clear proof that there isn't any real fossils to prove evolution.

Trilobites vs. Darwin

http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/natural ... _1_05.html
 
Barbarian observes:
Yes. If Darwin was wrong, there wouldn't be organisms that were intermediate between major groups. No Archaeopteryx, no Ambulocetus, no Acanthostega, etc.

But there are.


Are there really.

Yep. You just saw them.

So why haven't the monkeys of today evolved.

They have. A very great deal. None of the species today, look quite like the primitive primates from which they evolved.

Look at the following.

Coelecanth fossil of 240 million years

You've been misled about that. The two species known today, are unknown in the fossil record. They are very different in size, shape, and habitat of ancient coelacanths.

Would you like to learn about that, and how they have evolved in the past 240 million years?

This bear (Ursus spelaeus), which species is still alive today, was discovered in the Ural Mountains in Russia. This fossil dates back 300,000 to 100,000 years.

Fairly recent species. Most mammalian species live for several million years. Humans, for example, are over a million years old. And there are even more recent ones. The evidence indicates that polar bears evolved from brown bears less than 100,000 years ago. Maybe a lot less.

Insect fossils dating back some 125 million years, belonging to 100 families and 500 different species, have been unearthed in the Chinese region of Hebei.

Which modern species are there? I had no idea that any modern species of insect were from that time. That would be remarkable, although not completely unheard of. Species that live in unchanging environments are kept from evolving by stabilizing selection. But it's unusual to see an environment stay stable that long.

The fossils obtained here clearly reveal that insects have undergone no change whatseover right down to the present day.

They don't look exactly the same as modern ones to me, but then I've only taken three courses in entomology. Which modern speces are these?


You blew two, and the third lacks evidence, although you might be able to show something living that long. I can think of a couple of cases.

If you want more just ask.

See above.

Barbarian suggests:
Don't know what you mean, but this time at least you shouldn't have trusted whoever told you that story.


This is what im talking about.
The Dino-Bird Hoax

Ah, that one was in a popular magazine, National Geographic. Scientists asked the magazine to wait until the find could be peer-reviewed to be sure it was what it was supposed to be. Unfortunately, the magazine ignored the scientists and was embarassed when they finished their examination and found it was a fake, a jigsaw of two unrelated organisms. However, both of them turned out to be important fossils in the evolution of birds.

Meantime, there are many feathered dinosaurs found which were not fakes.

Piltdown Man

We don't know who planted the fake. We do know that evolutionists proved that it was a fake. How this reflects badly on evolution, I don't understand.

Ota Benga: I think i posted about this earlier.

That some creationists (but not all of them) believed in slavery and inferiorty of non-white humans is not a problem for evolutionary theory. In fact, at that time, almost all people of European descent were racists. Evolutionists were considered liberal, because they generally opposed slavery. As late as 1992, a major creationist leader (Henry Morris, of the Institute for Creation Research) was still claiming that blacks were spiritually and intellectually inferior to other people. You won't find evolutionists saying that, because evolutionary theory shows that there are no biological human races.

Nebraska Man: A Pig's Tooth

This one was just a goof by a herptologist and a London newspaper that made the claim. When a mammologist got to look at it, he quickly determined that it was from a peccary, albeit worn down to look almost exactly like a primate tooth.

I mean if there really were fossils that proved evolution these evolution scientists wouldn't have gone so far!

You mean exposing frauds? Why would evolutionists exposing frauds and errors be proof that no transitionals exist?

This is clear proof that there isn't any real fossils to prove evolution.

Trilobites vs. Darwin

Um Darwin wins again...

Lin et al, 2006 strongly linked Parvancorina to an unambiguously arthropodan Cambrian creature, Skania sundbergi, closely related to Primicaris larvaformis. Similar taxa have been documented in Australia, Chengjiang, Kaili, and the Burgess Shale (see image of Skania fragilis, left). If neither Skania nor the protaspid stage of trilobites were preserved, it would have been difficult, if not impossible, to make the link between Parvancorina and trilobites. As it is, both Parvancorina and Skania/Primicaris can be placed in a relationship that might look something like the sequence below.
http://www.trilobites.info/origins.htm

We have trilobite-like organisms in the Precambrian and early Cambrian, but not quite yet trilobites.

The eyes? The evolution of the different types of trilobite eyes from primitive arthropod eyes, is rather well documented. Learn about it here:
http://www.trilobites.info/eyes.htm

:-D
 
A very good website to understand the evidence behind evolution can be found at 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution.

One of my favorites is based on retroviruses. The basic idea is that a retro virus sometimes insert their code into an animal's sperm or egg. When this happens, the virus's DNA is inheriented by the children. This insertion is pretty random.

So if evolution is true, these random insertions of our ancestors should be in the same places in their children. So when we find the same retrovirus in the same place in our DNA as in a chimp's DNA, that is a good proof of evolution. It makes no sense from design for God to put a retro virus DNA in the same place in a chimp's DNA as in a human's DNA. When we see this over and over, that is a good sign that we have a common ancestor.

Anyway, check out that link if you are interested in the different types of evidence for evolution.
 
Is anyone else hankerin' for a banana right now? :-?

Quath, as you may very well understand, Christians must refute the claims of evolution. IF evolution actually occured, then the whole first part of Genesis is just a story that never happened. If this is the case, then that opens the floodgates of "what other stories didn't happen where the Bible claims they did?" Of course, as an atheist, you may very well enjoy the prospects of this, perhaps not. Many would.

I'm not sure where I fall on all this. I would like to think that there is a non-coporeal/spiritual realm that exists where we go after we die, created by a being who is far advanced from us. I've seen and heard of some instances of the supernatural so I have to think it is "out there", but does that necessarily mean that if one side is right that the other is wrong? Probably not. I think there would have to be truths to both sides, and there may very well come a point in the future where both sides come to an agreement(s) that they wouldn't have in any other time in history. Who knows. :-?
 
DNA is no proof for evolution. If your going to believe in the Bible your going to have to believe evolution is false. There is no room for compromising.This human brain is not even a drop into the ocean compared to Gods knowledge. DNA is a complex structure. Theres a whole book written on this subject called 'The secrets of DNA' by Harun Yahya. Here check this link out.

http://www.harunyahya.com/dna01.php

Heres an excerpt.

Human DNA is also Similar to that of the Worm, Mosquito and Chicken!

Moreover, the above-mentioned basic proteins are common vital molecules present in various other living things. The structure of the same kinds of proteins present not only in chimpanzee, but also in completely different living creatures, is very similar to that in humans.

For example, the genetic analyses published in New Scientist have revealed a 75 % similarity between the DNAs of nematode worms and man.18 This definitely does not mean that there is only a 25% difference between man and these worms! According to the family tree made by evolutionists, the Chordata phylum, in which man is included, and the Nematoda phylum were different from each other even 530 million years ago.

On the other hand, in another finding which also appeared in the local media, it was stated that the comparisons carried out between the genes of fruit flies belonging to the Drosophila species and human genes yielded a similarity of 60%.19

In another case, analyses done on some proteins show man as closely linked to some very different living things. In a survey carried out by researchers in Cambridge University, some proteins of land-dwelling animals were compared. Amazingly, in nearly all samples, human beings and chickens were paired as the closest relatives. The next closest relative was the crocodile.20

Another example used by evolutionists on "the genetic similarity between man and ape", is the presence of 48 chromosomes in chimpanzees and gorillas versus 46 chromosomes in man.Evolutionists regard the closeness of the number of chromosomes as indication of an evolutionary relationship. However, if this logic used by evolutionists were valid, then man would have an even closer relative than the chimpanzee: "the potato"!. Because the number of chromosomes in potatoes is the same as that of man: 46

These examples confirm that the concept of genetic similarity does not constitute evidence for the theory of evolution. This is because the genetic similarities are not in line with the alleged evolutionary schemes, and on the contrary, yield completely opposite results.

A headline from a popular newspaper in Turkey:"It is discovered that we are relatives with flies!". A fruit fly, whose genetic code has been mapped surprised scientists. The genes of the fly are similar to those of man's by 60%.
 
DNA is no proof for evolution.

As soon as Watson and Crick figured out how it worked, biologists immediately realized that if evolution were true, you should be able to detect the lines of descent in DNA. So they checked. Sure enough, the phylogenies obtained by DNA comparisons were the same ones, to a high degree of precision, that was obtained by anatomical and fossil evidence.

We even use it to trace human family relationships now, because the resolution of this method is so fine.

If your going to believe in the Bible your going to have to believe evolution is false.

That's not a Christian belief. Most of us admit that evolution is consistent with scripture.

There is no room for compromising.

There are some forms of creationism that are consistent with scripture, but not YE. Genesis specifically rejects the YE doctrine of "life ex nihilo."

This human brain is not even a drop into the ocean compared to Gods knowledge. DNA is a complex structure. Theres a whole book written on this subject called 'The secrets of DNA' by Harun Yahya. Here check this link out.

Sorry, Yahya has been caught editing quotes too often for me to give him much confidence. Even many of his fellow Muslims think he's nuts.

Human DNA is also Similar to that of the Worm, Mosquito and Chicken!

It is. In fact, all organisms on earth have more in common with each other in their DNA than differences. But the important thing is, if you compare how similar they are, you get humans closer to chickens, and less to worms and mosquitos. Exactly what evolutionary theory predicts. Yahya had you thinking it was a refutation of science, didn't he?

Here's how they sort out:
cladogram.gif


Moreover, the above-mentioned basic proteins are common vital molecules present in various other living things.

DNA isn't protein. But we can do similar cladograms with conserved proteins like cytochrome C. We get the same phylogenies.
Image19.gif


The structure of the same kinds of proteins present not only in chimpanzee, but also in completely different living creatures, is very similar to that in humans.

True. It's a sign of common descent, but the important thing is that the amount of difference is more evidence for the way evolution happened.

For example, the genetic analyses published in New Scientist have revealed a 75 % similarity between the DNAs of nematode worms and man.18 This definitely does not mean that there is only a 25% difference between man and these worms!

Biochemically, it does. Man is just a few percent different from chimps. So you see, the amount of difference is a good indicator of how distantly we are related to various organisms.

According to the family tree made by evolutionists, the Chordata phylum, in which man is included, and the Nematoda phylum were different from each other even 530 million years ago.

But we retain traces of that ancestry; most genes of most organisms are the same. Cytochrome c works in all of them, no matter which organism it comes from.

On the other hand, in another finding which also appeared in the local media, it was stated that the comparisons carried out between the genes of fruit flies belonging to the Drosophila species and human genes yielded a similarity of 60%.19

In another case, analyses done on some proteins show man as closely linked to some very different living things. In a survey carried out by researchers in Cambridge University, some proteins of land-dwelling animals were compared. Amazingly, in nearly all samples, human beings and chickens were paired as the closest relatives. The next closest relative was the crocodile.20

This sounds like Jon Safarti's claim that chicken lysozyme is more like human lysozyme, than is chimp lysozyme. It turned out to be a hoax:

Jonathan Sarfati of Answers in Genesis tells us in this article that



Human lysozyme is closer to chicken lysozyme than to that of any other mammal.

The creationist True.Origin Archive also repeats this claim in this article.

If true this could show that evolution is false. And it has been a rather common creationist claim. Duane Gish who has a doctorate in biochemistry has said the same thing. It is not true nor is it even close to being true. Human lysozyme is identical to chimpanzee lysozyme thus elementary logic tells us it not possible for another lysozyme to be closer. In reality, chicken lysozyme differs from human lysozyme in 51 out of 130 positions. Ouch!

http://members.cox.net/ardipithecus/evo ... ie002.html

If you're thinking of a different one, give me the name, and I'll check. But I already know what I'll find.

Another example used by evolutionists on "the genetic similarity between man and ape", is the presence of 48 chromosomes in chimpanzees and gorillas versus 46 chromosomes in man.Evolutionists regard the closeness of the number of chromosomes as indication of an evolutionary relationship.

Um, no. The number of chromosomes, because of fusions and breakages, is not a good indicator, and no "evolutionist" says it is. But here's what's really interesting about those differences in apes:

CommonDescent.jpg


The (H) is a human chromosome. Notice that it is identical to two chimp chromosomes, if they were fused. Notice that it is less likely than the corresponding ones in gorillas and orangs. And one more time, the evidence supports evolutionary theory.

However, if this logic used by evolutionists were valid, then man would have an even closer relative than the chimpanzee:

Well now you know. They lied to you about that. And here's why:

"the potato"!. Because the number of chromosomes in potatoes is the same as that of man: 46

And probably a lot of other organisms. But, as you learned, the number of chromosomes is not a good indicator of descent.

These examples confirm that the concept of genetic similarity does not constitute evidence for the theory of evolution.

As you just learned, it does. If you don't understand the issue, it's easy to fool you.

A headline from a popular newspaper in Turkey:"It is discovered that we are relatives with flies!". A fruit fly, whose genetic code has been mapped surprised scientists. The genes of the fly are similar to those of man's by 60%

Since this has been known for over 30 years, I think few were surprised. And according to evolutionary theory, they should be about that different.

Does it make you angry that they lied to you? It should. Remember, it's easier to fool you, when you don't know the facts.
 
Orion said:
Is anyone else hankerin' for a banana right now? :-?
Heh. I would be happy for humans to just stop slinging poo around. :)

Quath, as you may very well understand, Christians must refute the claims of evolution. IF evolution actually occured, then the whole first part of Genesis is just a story that never happened. If this is the case, then that opens the floodgates of "what other stories didn't happen where the Bible claims they did?" Of course, as an atheist, you may very well enjoy the prospects of this, perhaps not. Many would.
Well, I don't think evolution hurts Christianity too much. Christianity dealt with the same issue with the Earth moving. There are many Bible passages that say the Earth does not move and those passages wee used to argue against the Sun being the center of the solar system. These verses are still in the Bible, but Christians either ignore or reinterpret them.

I think you will see something similar with evolution. You can see Genesis as more methaphorical. But in a sense, you are also correct that if you wonder some Genesis stories are a metaphor, then you have to question all the stories.

I'm not sure where I fall on all this. I would like to think that there is a non-coporeal/spiritual realm that exists where we go after we die, created by a being who is far advanced from us. I've seen and heard of some instances of the supernatural so I have to think it is "out there", but does that necessarily mean that if one side is right that the other is wrong? Probably not. I think there would have to be truths to both sides, and there may very well come a point in the future where both sides come to an agreement(s) that they wouldn't have in any other time in history. Who knows. :-?
When I became atheist, I still wanted there to be a spirit. I thought that maybe we could have evolved one. Or maybe there are aliens that copy us to a virtual world when we die.

But the more I thought about it, the more I realize that everlasting life is a curse. After a billion yeats, you may get bored. However, you haven't even started eternity yet.

truth_will_prevail said:
DNA is no proof for evolution.
I think the alternative is to say that God planted retrovirus in similar species to fool us into thinking evolution was real.

If your going to believe in the Bible your going to have to believe evolution is false. There is no room for compromising.
But you don't believe the Earth is immovable, do you? Here are some examples where the Bible says this:

I Chronicles 16:30: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable."
Psalm 93:1: "Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm..."
Psalm 96:10: "He has fixed the earth firm, immovable..."
Psalm 104:5: "Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken."
Isaiah 45:18: "...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast..."

If you can reconcile these Bible verses with a Earth that does move about the Sun, then you can find a way to reconcile evolution as well.

Human DNA is also Similar to that of the Worm, Mosquito and Chicken!
I think you have to be careful of similarity comparisons. We are more similar to a worm than to a fungus. I think we can all agree with that and that is what some of this analysis shows. It is not good to compare number of chromosones just as it is not good to compare the number of pages in a book to see how similar books are.
 
Quath said:
Well, I don't think evolution hurts Christianity too much. Christianity dealt with the same issue with the Earth moving. There are many Bible passages that say the Earth does not move and those passages wee used to argue against the Sun being the center of the solar system. These verses are still in the Bible, but Christians either ignore or reinterpret them.

I think you will see something similar with evolution. You can see Genesis as more methaphorical. But in a sense, you are also correct that if you wonder some Genesis stories are a metaphor, then you have to question all the stories.

I've come to the place where I can see allegory in a lot of Biblical passages, even when the writer doesn't state it AS such. I therefore can see that most of the first part of Genesis were a compilation of stories that most likely didn't happen. Rather, they were man's way of trying to understand aspects of God and how God may have worked.

Quath said:
But the more I thought about it, the more I realize that everlasting life is a curse. After a billion yeats, you may get bored. However, you haven't even started eternity yet.

I think that perhaps you are looking at such an existence based upon earthly things. Earthly things DO tend to become boring after a while, because that's just the way our bodies work. They need new stimuli, probably associated with some sort of chemical production in the brain, but without that limitation, I think an everlasting existence can be quite fulfilling, actually. Just food for thought. :)
 
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