He died for the seed of abraham

[savedbygrace57]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heb 2:

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Talking about the Limited intent of the atonement, there is perhaps no scripture that declares it more plainly than this one..

That the GodMan Mediatoral came to identify with the choice people he came to die for..not all of mankind, but the seed of abraham, that is a chosen people..

ps 105:

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

isa 41:

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend

remember Jesus said :

jn 15:

13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.[chosen ones]

When paul declared in 1 cor 15:

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

our sins = The seed of abraham..

heb 2:

17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren[seed of abraham], that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people[seed of abraham].

Notice, it says made like unto His brethern, which is the seed of abraham..

This is the same brethern as in rom 8:

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Yes, the seed of abraham is distinguished and particular, but the scope was broad, the scope was the world, and not Just israel..

rom 4:

18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

So, yes limited atonement is true, and must be preached truthfully or you have no gospel..

That Jesus christ came and Identifed with , the seed of abraham, and died for the seed of abraham, and rose again for the Justification of the seed of abraham...This is the Gospel of the Kingdom..

Yes, no doubt, all are sinners, but not all sinners are of the seed of abraham..__________________

 

[prough91]

Don't really know what you're trying to say, but all I need to know is "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

 

[LaCrum]

I think that they are trying to say only Jews can be saved? But that makes no sense when placed by this scripture:

Isaiah 49:6

"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

 

[savedbygrace57]

lacrum says:

I think that they are trying to say only Jews can be saved?

Jews are not the only people who have abraham as a Father, did you not read this before ? Gen 17:5

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

What does A Father of many nations mean to you ? Does not that appear to include more than one nation { israel ] ? Think about it..

 

[handy]

My problem with the concept of limited atonement is that too often it forces us to explain away texts with the rather weak argument "well, when it says 'all' or 'whole world' here, it really doesn't mean 'all' or 'whole world' or when it says 'world' it doesn't mean 'world', it only means the elect."

There are just an overwhelming amount of texts that indicate that Jesus did indeed die for the sins of the whole world, that he takes away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 2:16 doesn't necessarily limit Jesus' atoning work on the cross to certain people. The language of the text means to take possession of. We all know that all who believe are God's people, "the seed of Abraham". But, taking possession of and dying for are two different things. When the Bible speaks of those who are saved, it speaks of those who are God's, of Abraham's seed. But, when the Bible speaks of who Jesus came to die for, it casts the language out to encompass the whole world.

One of the texts that makes limited atonement most suspect is 1 John 2:1-2:
My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

This is where the argument "well, when it says 'whole world' it really doesn't mean the whole world" breaks down. Because here John is specifically talking to believers and says to believers, "not for ours only, but also those of the whole world." To say that when John says, "but also those of the whole world" he didn't mean those other than believers makes the entire verse nonsense.

Even the redemption of some does not automatically imply that they are the elect. We see this in 2 Peter 2:1:
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

So now, the good Calvinist will have to explain how when Peter said, "even denying the Master who bought them" he didn't mean those whom Christ bought via the death on the cross.

I was a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church for 14 years, and never once did anyone adequately explain that. (Not knocking the OPC though, a lot of really good folks there!)

 

[savedbygrace57]

handy says:

My problem with the concept of limited atonement is that too often it forces us to explain away texts with the rather weak argument "well, when it says 'all' or 'whole world' here, it really doesn't mean 'all' or 'whole world'

You dont see the whole world in this scripture ? Gen 15:

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

What does many nations mean to you ? I always thought the whole world was made up of many nations around the globe..

I dont think clearer language can be given that shows that Abraham's seed[of which He is Father] is world wide than what is given in gen 17 5..

 

[handy]

I believe that the seed of Abraham does encompass all in the world who believer, not just the Jew, but all.

But, again, I find a bit of a dance around some terminology here. John is clear in 1 John that he is speaking not only to believers, but also those who do not believe. Again the text:

My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Who is the "our" John refers to but the brethren. Then who is the whole world? Those who are not of the brethren.

2 Peter backs this up. Again the text:

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Peter tells us that even the false prophets, who deny the Master were nonetheless bought by Him. Their rejection of Him brings destruction upon themselves, but nonetheless, they are bought by Him.

 

[LaCrum]

Jews are not the only people who have abraham as a Father, did you not read this before ? Gen 17:5

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

What does A Father of many nations mean to you ? Does not that appear to include more than one nation { israel ] ? Think about it..

I think you're confused, I'm not disgreeing with you. I do believe Abraham is the spiritual father of all those who accept Jesus as their savior.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jews are not the only people who have abraham as a Father, did you not read this before ? Gen 17:5

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

What does A Father of many nations mean to you ? Does not that appear to include more than one nation { israel ] ? Think about it..

I think you're confused, I'm not disgreeing with you. I do believe Abraham is the spiritual father of all those who accept Jesus as their savior.

God told Abraham that He was the Father of many nations..He said nothing about accepting christ as saviour for a condition..do you see that condition in gen 17:

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

 

[savedbygrace57]

handy:

John is clear in 1 John that he is speaking not only to believers, but also those who do not believe.

He is speaking about all of the seed of abraham who have believed and who will believe..in any case He is not talking about all humanity, for not all humanity belong to the seed of abraham..

 

[savedbygrace57]

handy:

So now, the good Calvinist will have to explain how when Peter said, "even denying the Master who bought them" he didn't mean those whom Christ bought via the death on the cross.

Right, He did not mean blood bought believers..in fact these same men peter said that they were born to be destroyed 2 pet 2:

12But these[ referring back to 2 pet 1], as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

The word made here is the greek word:

gennao and means:

of men who fathered children
to be born to be begotten
of women giving birth to children

That was Gods purpose for them being born, not salvation, but to be damned for their false teaching, much like in jude 3

4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus christ did not shed one drop of blood for them..

 

[handy]

Sorry, 2 Peter 2:1 does not say "those born to be destroyed" but rather ""even denying the Master who bought them".

This is just where I part (theological) company with Calvinist doctrine. It's not something that I break fellowship over, but I've heard Calvinists dancing around this issue for 25 years now, and they never reconcile the very clear teachings of texts like 2 Peter 2:1 and all the other texts that show that Christ died for the world.

 

[savedbygrace57]

handy says:

Sorry, 2 Peter 2:1 does not say "those born to be destroyed"

Sorry but 2 pet 2 12 does..

 

[handy]

Not really. Your missing the metaphor in 2 Peter 2:12. Here is the text:

First in KJV:
12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

in the NewKJV:
12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption

Here it is in NASB
12But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

in Young's Literal
12and these, as irrational natural beasts, made to be caught and destroyed -- in what things they are ignorant of, speaking evil -- in their destruction shall be destroyed,

in the English Standard:
12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,

The reason why I'm including all these various translations it to point out that the "as" in 2 Peter 2:12 is understood to be a metaphor, that the false prophets are like unreasoning animals. Not that they are unreasoning animals, but Peter is comparing them to unreasoning animals.

However, I notice that instead of dealing with 2 Peter 2:1 you have jumped instead to 2 Peter 2:12 which seems to say what you want it to say, rather than 2:1 which clearly says something different than what you are saying. This is the same thing that I have found that most my friends and family members who are Calvinists tend to do: deal with texts like 2 Peter 2:1 by jumping to more "friendly" texts. When I was a Calvinist, I used to do the same thing myself, and it bothered me, because I came to realize that concentrating on texts that seemed to point to limited atonement, didn't explain the texts that even more clearly point to Jesus' death being for the whole world.

Just because Peter compares false prophets to unreasoning beasts in 2:12 does not mean that he didn't clearly state in verse 1 that the Master bought them and they denied the Master.

Even if, even if Peter is saying that false prophets are unreasoning animals are made to be taken and destroyed it still does not mean that he didn't say in verse one that the Master bought them.

 

[savedbygrace57]

handy says:

Not really. Your missing the metaphor in 2 Peter 2:12. Here is the text:

You are missing the plain truth of 2 pet 2 12 regarding the false teachers in 2 pet 2:1

They were born to be destroyed, they had no hope of salvation from the day they were born into this world..

They were merely pigs that had been outwardly washed, and dogs..2 pet 2:

22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Heb 2:16

He took on the seed of abraham, this is a very important truth here, and when duly considered, it is plain to understand that its the seed only that shall benefit in the advantages of the Incarnation, sufferings and death, and resurrection of Jesus christ, the seed [ Gal 3:16] The seed of abraham are the True Israel, Spiritual, the elect of God : Gal 3 , rom 2 rom 9-11 ; eph 2..

By being said that He took on the seed of abraham also means that Jesus did not come to Identify with and die for all of mankind, but only for a seed, a remnant..

 

[savedbygrace57]

In understanding the atonement, that is, who Jesus Christ specifically die for, we must compare scripture with scripture. Those who are deceived by the devil believe that Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of all individuals of mankind, but thats not true, but He atoned for all of the seed of Abraham of mankind. The spiritual seed of Abraham was not confined to Israel, but a Father of Many Nations God had made Abraham gen 17:

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

It should also be duly noted, this is when God said now you shall be called Abraham, when designating Him the Father of Many Nations, and so many today identify Abraham only with his fleshly descendants..

heb 2:

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Who are the seed of Abraham ? Lets look at scripture gal 3:

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

also rom 4:

16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Here are the seed of Abraham and Christ brethren Matt 12:

49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Here above Jesus is renouncing any special relationship with the ethnic Jews and identifying with the spiritual Israel..

The seed of Abraham whom Jesus Christ Identified with are the many whom Jesus Christ came to redeem isa 53:

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

The people that He shall save ! matt 1:

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

His people here is the seed of Abraham,not just Jews but gentiles too who belong to Him gal 3:

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now, is it only here Jews Paul is saying to " if ye be Christ's" and if one is Christ's, then are they his people as said in matt 1:21 ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Jews erroneously thought (as many do today) that the promises made to Abraham regarding his seed respected all of his descendants. Their boast was "we be Abraham’s seed" (John 8:33), to which Christ replied, "If ye were Abraham’s children ye would do the works of Abraham" (verse 39 and see Romans 4:12-13). God’s rejection of Ishmael and Esau was proof that the promises were not made to the natural descendants as such.

The choice of Isaac and Jacob showed that the promise was limited to an elect line. "The children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted [regarded] as the seed. For this is the word of promise. At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son (Rom. 9:8,9). The "children of God" and the "children of promise" are one and the same, whether they be Jews or Gentiles. As Isaac was born supernaturally, so are all of God’s elect (John 1:13). As Isaac, on that account, was heir of the promised blessing, so are Christians (Gal. 4:29; 3:29). "Children of the promise" are identical with "the heirs of promise" (Heb. 6:17, and cf. Rom. 8:17). All the everlasting promises made to Israel was not made to Israel of the flesh, but Israel of promise, and these promises found their fulfillment in Jesus christ ( 2 cor 1:20; gal 3:16).

 

[savedbygrace57]

Gal 3:

16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

It should be undestood that any promises of God made to Abraham should not be understood apart from Jesus christ, wether they be temporal or spiritual. The Apostle paul here reminds the galatians

" now to abraham and his seed were the promises made, He saith not to seeds [ as in a physical and spiritual seed] as in many, but as of one, and they seed which is Christ "

In quoting gen 12:3

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

So, paul was affirming, that God's promises to Abraham regarded not his natural descendants, but only those of his spiritual children who were one with Jesus christ, the surety of the everlasting covenant, and the promises are communicated from Him to us [ His seed] both the promises themselves and the things promised :

1 jn 2:

25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

5:

11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

titus 1:

1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

 

[savedbygrace57]

The children of promise, the seed of Abraham, are promised faith..faith is not a condition in becoming the seed of Abraham or a child of promise, but a effect of it..

Faith or Trust is promised to the seed of Abraham heb 2:13

And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Jesus is here saying that not only will He put His Trust in God, but Him and His children or seed will too..

For Abraham was a type of Christ, in that God promised him descendants in which God would establish His everlasting covenant with..Gen 17:

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

God ensures Abraham that all his seed, the children of many nations God had made him Father of gen 17 5 would have Him as their God according to the everlasting covenant..

And this is what the everlasting covenant provides to that seed of Abraham heb 13:

20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

God promises to work in them and cause them to be well pleasing in His sight, and we know that without Faith its impossible to be well pleasing in Gods sight , hence God promises to give all the seed Faith..