"He has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever"

[Maedchen]

Thank you, [MENTION=70867]deborah[/MENTION].
I appreciate your answer very much.
May God bless you.

 

[farouk]

I think the term 'care' fits far more fully into other relevant areas, than the strict financial. As many women also would testify, as regards families.

Blessings.

 

[handy]

May God be with all of you.

I have a question regarding the understanding and consequence of 1. Timothy 5:8. It reads in NASB translation:

"But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

Does that consequently mean that if a mother or father is leaving the family because of unbearable circumstances, that she / he is automatically "worse than an unbeliever"? Could she / he ever gain God's favor again after leaving?
Or does that verse clearly indicate that leaving the household is never a Christian option, no matter what the circumstances are?

Your thoughts are much appreciated.
Maedchen

If I'm understanding your concern here, you're asking whether or not if a man or woman who emotionally abandons their children, even if they are physically cared for, could ever gain God's favor again after leaving.

If that is your question, then the answer is absolutely.

Because there is only one unforgivable sin and that sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Certainly a parent who abandons their household in any capacity has much to answer for and needs to seek the forgiveness of those who were wronged. If a Christian parent abandons their children and/or spouse due to "unbearable circumstances"... then they most likely are guilty of not having faith that God will bring them through the circumstances... or provide a way to take the children along with or at least assure the children that they are loved and even if the parent cannot physically be with them, that parent will still support them with love and emotional support.

But, forgiveness is certainly obtainable.

However, one thing we Christians need to allow each other is a certain amount of freedom for each of us to walk with the Spirit. I can exhort, I can encourage, but I cannot live within the heart of another Christian. Therefore, while I would caution and strongly exhort a brother or sister to not abandon their family due to circumstances...however bad... I truly cannot "judge" them as being an infidel because I'm not in their heart, the Holy Spirit is.

Stated a little more simply, I guess I am saying that we need to be careful with any "automatically" kind of judgements, when judging the behavior of one of the Holy Spirit's own.

 

[Maedchen]

Dear handy,

your reply was very helpful. I thank you. It makes me think a lot.
Please know that I am writing these questions in behalf of someone I know.
I can't reveal too much, therefore the secrecy.

There is still one thing that I would like to ask your opinion about. It refers to a part of your well thought answer. You wrote:

"If a Christian parent abandons their children and/or spouse due to "unbearable circumstances"... then they most likely are guilty of not having faith that God will bring them through the circumstances... or provide a way to take the children along with or at least assure the children that they are loved and even if the parent cannot physically be with them, that parent will still support them with love and emotional support. "

You know, that person whom I know has had the faith that God will bring her through the circumstances. She has patiently endured several years, but is now at a point where her body is no longer able to heal fast enough before it will be broken again. Out of love for her children she stayed. And out of love for God's Word she kept being submissive to her husband.
The unsolvable problem is that the husband loves the children dearly, and the children do love him dearly. He is also financially well suited.
So her concern is that if she stays, she will sooner or later be no more. Either physically or mentally. But should she leave her beloved children with her husband, it would make her guilty regarding your explanation quoted above, and also according to 1. Tim.5:8.

It is not that she willingly would like to hurt her children, even not her husband, but in order to keep alive she would consider to run away.
I hope that I could ask in a way that is understandable, yet not too much dramatized.

May God bless you all, also you of course, dear farouk.
Maedchen

 

[Brother Mike]

Certainly a parent who abandons their household in any capacity has much to answer for and needs to seek the forgiveness of those who were wronged. If a Christian parent abandons their children and/or spouse due to "unbearable circumstances"... then they most likely are guilty of not having faith that God will bring them through the circumstances...

Or does that verse clearly indicate that leaving the household is never a Christian option, no matter what the circumstances are?

The whole passage of scripture refers to a widow, there is no "HE" in there and nothing mentioned about anyone leaving.

1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
1Ti 5:7 And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his (idios- personal thing, their own) own, and specially for those of his (oikeios -Relatives of those own) own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

1Ti 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,

The whole subject is about directions for Widows.

1Ti 5:9 Let no one be put on the roll of widows [who are to receive church support] who is under sixty years of age or who has been the wife of more than one man;
1Ti 5:10 And she must have a reputation for good deeds, as one who has brought up children, who has practiced hospitality to strangers [of the brotherhood], washed the feet of the saints, helped to relieve the distressed, [and] devoted herself diligently to doing good in every way.

Those over 60, let them be taken care of by the church who have been faithful in their own role being faithful in their own house, even give them something to help out with. The younger don't put in or use because they will want to get married again.

This women you speak of still has a Husband that is alive. So it seems we are taking scripture way out of context here, and what Paul wrote by the Holy Spirit. I think we need to find something that actually pertains to this womens situation. We must read above and below, and not take one set of scripture out of it's setting.

So, the widows that did not take care of those outside that were their own or even those that lived in their own house, you don't use those widows or have the church take care of them. If one had been faithful and over 60 then put them to use and take care of them. It's real simple.


Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

The unsolvable problem is that the husband loves the children dearly, and the children do love him dearly.

I have to say this and any good counselor would say this, as well.
This man does NOT love his children. A man that loves his children does not have violence in his heart and actions, towards their mother. He would be concerned about their mental health.
When it comes to the children loving their father, that's what children do. The problem is those children will have to choose sides eventually and fear of his violence can play into that. As well, as daddy spoiling them.
The children are learning a very sick and twisted definition of love. Very often, they will eventually display the same behaviors. Or they will become self destructive in their behaviors. Drug and alcohol abuse, etc.

I suggest, getting some good books on the subject of domestic violence. There have been some really good ones written by both Christian men and women. This problem has come out of the closet, finally.
Also, there are some really good advocates out there that can help her, financially and with legal help. A woman's crisis center would be best.
Statics show that the most dangerous time for the abused is when they leave. She needs a safe place to go with her children.
Just one more thing. I would not advise her to leave without her children. It will make it more difficult to ever get them back.

I'm assuming that either he will not submit to counseling or that they did this and it hasn't helped.

Most importantly she needs to remember that no matter what she decides to do, God loves her! He does not want this to be happening to her, her children, or even her husband. One can pray and beg God to change things but God can't Make someone change. They have to be willing to submit, they need to be willing to be healed.
A marriage is not more important to God than the people involved.

I will pray about this and for you, that you can say and do the things that need to be done for your friend. God will guide you.

 

[handy]

Certainly a parent who abandons their household in any capacity has much to answer for and needs to seek the forgiveness of those who were wronged. If a Christian parent abandons their children and/or spouse due to "unbearable circumstances"... then they most likely are guilty of not having faith that God will bring them through the circumstances...

Or does that verse clearly indicate that leaving the household is never a Christian option, no matter what the circumstances are?

The whole passage of scripture refers to a widow, there is no "HE" in there and nothing mentioned about anyone leaving.

1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
1Ti 5:7 And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.
1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his (idios- personal thing, their own) own, and specially for those of his (oikeios -Relatives of those own) own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

1Ti 5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,

The whole subject is about directions for Widows.

1Ti 5:9 Let no one be put on the roll of widows [who are to receive church support] who is under sixty years of age or who has been the wife of more than one man;
1Ti 5:10 And she must have a reputation for good deeds, as one who has brought up children, who has practiced hospitality to strangers [of the brotherhood], washed the feet of the saints, helped to relieve the distressed, [and] devoted herself diligently to doing good in every way.

Those over 60, let them be taken care of by the church who have been faithful in their own role being faithful in their own house, even give them something to help out with. The younger don't put in or use because they will want to get married again.

This women you speak of still has a Husband that is alive. So it seems we are taking scripture way out of context here, and what Paul wrote by the Holy Spirit. I think we need to find something that actually pertains to this womens situation. We must read above and below, and not take one set of scripture out of it's setting.

So, the widows that did not take care of those outside that were their own or even those that lived in their own house, you don't use those widows or have the church take care of them. If one had been faithful and over 60 then put them to use and take care of them. It's real simple.


Mike.

Thank you Brother Mike...

Yes, the context of the text really does preclude it from being applied to this situation. In my previous response, I was responding more to the idea that it would be unforgivable for a person to abandon their family...which it's not. As far as this particular text goes... it doesn't apply. As Bro. Mike states, this is concerning how the needs of widows are to be met.

[MENTION=96768]Maedchen[/MENTION] I do not believe that the Bible teaches us that it is the part of either a submissive wife or a caring mother to allow herself to be beaten by her husband. That is twisting the idea of submissiveness and love into something rather evil.

If a woman is allowing herself to be beaten... to the point of broken bones and imminent death, then she truly owes it to her children to get them away from that kind of evil.

The whole idea of wifely submission is tied to creating a family unit that is based upon God's roles for family... obedient children, submissive wife and a husband who loves his wife the way Christ loved the Church... in other words, a self-sacrificing husband who puts the needs of his wife and family above his own.

Think of the Law and how if someone or even someone's animal were in danger of death or dying by keeping the Law, it was understood that the Law could be set aside in such cases. In Luke 14, Jesus was tested by Pharisees in the case of a man who was in need of healing on the Sabbath Day... Jesus said to them, "“Which one of you will have a son or an ox fall into a well, and will not immediately pull him out on a Sabbath day?â€

It was always understood that if keeping to the letter of precept meant death in an emergency situation, then the Law of Love was to supersede that precept.

Going by this same principle, a woman should not feel that she is lacking faith or being wicked for getting herself and her children out of harm's way in the form of an abusive husband. That is twisting what is meant to bring life to us into something really quite evil.

Romans 8:2 states: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

If something is clearly sinful and leading to death... then it is not of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus....

I've had a friend in the situation that you describe...and I certainly encouraged and exhorted her to take her children and get to safety. No woman should just allow herself to be beaten to the point of death by a sick and twisted husband...especially under the impression that this is somehow "godly submission".

 

[handy]

I have to say this and any good counselor would say this, as well.
This man does NOT love his children. A man that loves his children does not have violence in his heart and actions, towards their mother. He would be concerned about their mental health.
When it comes to the children loving their father, that's what children do. The problem is those children will have to choose sides eventually and fear of his violence can play into that. As well, as daddy spoiling them.
The children are learning a very sick and twisted definition of love. Very often, they will eventually display the same behaviors. Or they will become self destructive in their behaviors. Drug and alcohol abuse, etc.

I stand in full agreement with this... there is no part of "love" that would allow a man to beat the mother of his children. This is a very sick and twisted environment for the children... especially when we consider the fact that our earthly father is to be a role model for our heavenly Father. There is no real love here... real love casts out fear, real love does not act unbecomingly and beating the mother of one's children is about as unbecoming as it gets.

 

[Brother Mike]

I stand in full agreement with this... there is no part of "love" that would allow a man to beat the mother of his children. This is a very sick and twisted environment for the children... especially when we consider the fact that our earthly father is to be a role model for our heavenly Father. There is no real love here... real love casts out fear, real love does not act unbecomingly and beating the mother of one's children is about as unbecoming as it gets.

1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

I 2nd that...... There is no provision in scripture for a women to endure hardship and beatings. How this women fares, determines the mans own glory. If the women is not treated well or taken care of then the glory of the man himself is shameful and tarnished. How our wives shine and sing shows what kind of man we are. So this in no way could be her fault as she is the mans glory and hence the mans responsibility to make her shine.

This has nothing to do with faith, or anything but abuse and if abuse we have laws against such things.

Mike.

 

[Claudya]

You know, that person whom I know has had the faith that God will bring her through the circumstances. She has patiently endured several years, but is now at a point where her body is no longer able to heal fast enough before it will be broken again. Out of love for her children she stayed. And out of love for God's Word she kept being submissive to her husband.

Ugh. That husband is not worthy of her submission, because he is not fulfilling the "love your wives" part.
But as a christian wife she should be concerned about her husband's standing with God. She should help him overcome this kind of sin he keep commiting against her (and thus also against their kids and against God) so he will be able to repent and find God's forgiveness for the sake of his soul's eternal fate.
And the best way for her to help him would be for her to withdraw her wifely submission (as said, at this point he's not worthy of that gift anyway) and kick him out of his comfortable home. And maybe have some court interdict for him to get near her. Maybe that will be an incentive for him to seek help and counselling so he may some day win her trust back and save their marriage.

 

[Maedchen]

[MENTION=4376]handy[/MENTION], [MENTION=70867]deborah[/MENTION], [MENTION=7377]Brother Mike[/MENTION], [MENTION=91320]Claudya[/MENTION]:

I thank you all for your thoughts. They are all encouraging and much appreciated. Let me assure you that everything you stated will be heard by that person who is in the center of it all.

Yet, please understand that logical and legal advice is helpful for identifying certain rights and possibilities, but to make that real step would be existentially life-changing, and thus is not easily accomplished.

And in spite of all you wrote so truly and compassionately towards that person, there is still that thought of living in the footsteps of our dear Lord Jesus, a thought that is overruling the wish to break free.

"Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame,and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."
(Hebr. 12:2)

Accepting the cross instead of throwing it away, "for the joy set before" us, namely to be with Jesus for ever, is maybe not a logical endeavor, but certainly one that is pondered by the person I know.

Thank you for your prayers. They are needed.
May God guide us all.
Maedchen