He That Dwells In Love Dwells In God, And God In Him."

[Mike S]

George Whitefield is known as the Calvinist preacher of early Methodism, often at theological odds with his friend John Wesley, the Arminian preacher of Methodism. But, Whitefield, despite theological differences with Wesley and others, was clear about one thing: all Christians who love God need to support and love all other Christians, regardless of theological differences. God dwells in all who love God.


But I only mention one thing more, and that is, if ye are converted, and become as little children, then for God's sake take care of doing what children often do; they are too apt to quarrel one with another. O love one another; "he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him." Joseph knew that his brethren were in danger of falling out, therefore when he left them, says he, "fall not out by the way." Ye are all children of the same Father, ye are all going to the same place; why should ye differ? The world has enough against us, the devil has enough against us, without our quarreling with each other; O walk in love. If I could preach no more, if I was not able to hold out to the end of my sermon, I would say as John did, when he was grown old and could not preach, "Little children, love one another:" if ye are God's children, then love one another. There is nothing grieves me more, than the differences amongst God's people. O hasten that time, when we shall either go to heaven, or never quarrel any more! Not Give That Which is Holy to Dogs Would to God I could speak to all of you in this comfortable language; but my master tells me, I must "not give that which is holy to dogs, I must not cast pearls before swine;" therefore, though I have been speaking comfortably, yet what I have been saying, especially in this latter part of the discourse, belongs to children; it is children's bread, it belongs to God's people. If any of you are graceless, Christless, unconverted creatures, I charge you not to touch it, I fence it in the name of God; here is a flaming sword turning every way to keep you from this bread of life, till ye are turned to Jesus Christ. And therefore, as I suppose many of you are unconverted, and graceless, go home! And away to your closets, and down with your stubborn hearts before God; if ye have not done lit before, let this be the night. Or, do not stay till ye go home; begin now, while standing here; pray to God, and let the language of thy heart be, Lord convert me! Lord make me a little child, Lord Jesus let me not be banished from thy kingdom!... I know ye cannot dwell with everlasting burnings; behold then I show you a way of escape; Jesus is the way, Jesus is the truth, the Lord Jesus Christ is the resurrection and the life. It is his Spirit must convert you, come to Christ, and ye shall have it; and may God for Christ's sake give it to you all, and convert you, that we may all meet, never to part again, in his heavenly kingdom; even so Lord Jesus, Amen and Amen.

 

[By Grace]

George Whitefield is known as the Calvinist preacher of early Methodism, often at theological odds with his friend John Wesley, the Arminian preacher of Methodism.

You need to reread Methodist history again, friend. In no way could Whitfield be remotely considered a Methodist.

As for Wesley, his "method of holiness" from which the name "Methodist" came, is centered in Arminianism, and is seen in the ways that the Holy Club members kept each other from straying due to the degree of accountability that each had to and for the others in that "Holy Club".

But, Whitefield, despite theological differences with Wesley and others, was clear about one thing: all Christians who love God need to support and love all other Christians, regardless of theological differences. God dwells in all who love God.

When Wesley was on his deathbed, his close associates asked him who he would like to preach his funeral sermon. Swiftly came the answer: "Mr. Whitfield".[/quote][/quote]

 

[JLB]

You need to reread Methodist history again, friend. In no way could Whitfield be remotely considered a Methodist.

As for Wesley, his "method of holiness" from which the name "Methodist" came, is centered in Arminianism, and is seen in the ways that the Holy Club members kept each other from straying due to the degree of accountability that each had to and for the others in that "Holy Club".


When Wesley was on his deathbed, his close associates asked him who he would like to preach his funeral sermon. Swiftly came the answer: "Mr. Whitfield".

[/quote][/quote]


Could you sum up in a few sentences what "Calvinism is? What Arminianism, is?


Thanks JLB

 

[JLB]

From Wikipedia

Some Arminian schools of thought share certain similarities with Semipelagianism, believing the first step of salvation is by human will[2] but classical Arminianism holds that the first step of salvation is the grace of God.[3] The two systems share both history and many doctrines, and the variety of the history of Christian theology. Arminianism is related to Calvinism (or Reformed theology). However, because of their differences over the doctrines of divine predestination and salvation, many people view these schools of thought as opposed to each other. In short, because ultimately God's Sovereignty can be overruled by man's free will in the Arminian doctrine and their synergistic system of Salvation is not only by Grace, these differences cannot be seen as mere details.


I would say the first step of Salvation has to do with God's Grace acting upon the human will, whereby the human will chooses Salvation.


Sorry that I am not up on these "beliefs" of Calvinism and Arminianism.

Thanks for your input.


JLB

 

[Mike S]

You need to reread Methodist history again, friend. In no way could Whitfield be remotely considered a Methodist.
As for Wesley, his "method of holiness" from which the name "Methodist" came, is centered in Arminianism, and is seen in the ways that the Holy Club members kept each other from straying due to the degree of accountability that each had to and for the others in that "Holy Club".

George Whitefield and John Wesley differed in their theologies on two main issues - predestination and perfection - but both were founders of the Methodist movement. There are still today Methodists who adhere to Whitefield's Calvinist doctrines, while the vast majority of Methodists are Arminians in the Wesley tradition.

http://www.ourchurch.com/view/?pageID=370134
Methodism is a movement within Protestant Christianity that is represented by several different denominations and churches. It's origin can be traced to the 18th century evangelical awakening in Great Britain. A small group of young Oxford students were dubbed "methodists" for their strict religious discipline. Among these students were Charles and John Wesley and George Whitefield.

John Wesley defined a methodist as "one that lives according to the methods laid down in the Bible." Some of the characteristics of Methodism include a strong emphasis on conversion and the new birth, discipleship through small groups, holiness of heart and life, and the exercise of spiritual disciplines as a means of grace.

Doctrinally, the branches of Methodism following Wesley are Arminian, emphasizing the free will of man. Those following the influence of Whitefield are Reformed or Calvinistic, emphasizing the doctrines of grace.

When Wesley was on his deathbed, his close associates asked him who he would like to preach his funeral sermon. Swiftly came the answer: "Mr. Whitfield".

Yet, what happened? Wesley outlived Whitefield and John Wesley preached at George Whitefield's funeral. The following except from that sermon addresses the point made in the OP.

"How amiable a character is this! How desirable to every child of God! But why is it then so rarely found? How is it that there are so few instances of it? Indeed, supposing we have tasted of the love of God, how can any of us rest till it is our own? Why, there is a delicate device, whereby Satan persuades thousands that they may stop short of it and yet be guiltless. It is well if many here present are not in this "snare of the devil, taken captive at his will." "O yes," says one, "I have all this love for those I believe to be children of God; but I will never believe he is a child of God, who belongs to that vile congregation! Can he, do you think, be a child of God, who holds such detestable opinions? or he that joins in such senseless and superstitious, if not idolatrous, worship?" So we may justify ourselves in one sin by adding a second to it! We excuse the want of love in ourselves by laying the blame on others! To color our own devilish temper, we pronounce our brethren children of the devil! O beware of this! -- and if you are already taken in the snare, escape out of it as soon as possible! Go and learn that truly catholic love which "is not rash," or hasty in judging; that love which "thinks no evil;" which "believes and hopes all things;" which makes all the allowances for others that we desire others should make for us! Then we shall take knowledge of the grace of God which is in every man, whatever be his opinion or mode of worship: then will all that fear God be near and dear unto us "in the bowels of Jesus Christ."

Was not this the spirit of our dear friend? And why should it not be ours? O Thou God of love, how long shall Thy people be a by-word among the Heathen? How long shall they laugh us to scorn, and say, "See how these Christians love one another!" When wilt Thou roll away our reproach? Shall the sword devour for ever? How long will it be ere Thou bid Thy people return from "following each other?" Now, at least, "let all the people stand still, and pursue after their brethren no more!" But what ever others do, let all of us, my brethren, hear the voice of him that, being dead, yet speaks! Suppose ye hear him say, "Now, at least, be ye followers of me as I was of Christ! Let brother "no more lift up sword against brother, neither know ye war any more!" Rather put ye on, as the elect of God, bowels of mercies, humbleness of mild, brotherly kindness, gentleness, long- suffering, forbearing one another in love. Let the time past suffice for strife, envy, contention; for biting and devouring one another. Blessed be God, that ye have not long ago been consumed one of another! From henceforth hold ye the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

O God, with Thee no word is impossible! Thou does whatsoever please Thee! O that Thou would cause the mantle of Thy prophet, whom Thou hast taken up, now to fall upon us that remain! "Where is the Lord God of Elijah?" Let his spirit rest upon these Thy servants! Show Thou art the God that answers by fire! Let the fire of Thy love fall on every heart! And because we love Thee, let us love one another with a "love stronger than death!" Take away from us "all anger, and wrath, and bitterness; all clamor and evil speaking!" Let Thy Spirit so rest upon us, that from this hour we may be "kind to each other, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even as God, for Christ's sake hath forgiven us!"





Both men were ordained Anglican clergy and believed they were not founding a new denomination, but, rather, a movement within their Anglican church. They held fast to different doctrines on some theological issues, but they remained friends from beginning to end...friends who disagreed, but friends none the less, and Methodists.

I thought you said you were a Methodist clergy at one time. You should know these things.

 

[JLB]

George Whitefield and John Wesley differed in their theologies on two main issues - predestination and perfection - but both were founders of the Methodist movement. There are still today Methodists who adhere to Whitefield's Calvinist doctrines, while the vast majority of Methodists are Arminians in the Wesley tradition.

http://www.ourchurch.com/view/?pageID=370134
Methodism is a movement within Protestant Christianity that is represented by several different denominations and churches. It's origin can be traced to the 18th century evangelical awakening in Great Britain. A small group of young Oxford students were dubbed "methodists" for their strict religious discipline. Among these students were Charles and John Wesley and George Whitefield.

John Wesley defined a methodist as "one that lives according to the methods laid down in the Bible." Some of the characteristics of Methodism include a strong emphasis on conversion and the new birth, discipleship through small groups, holiness of heart and life, and the exercise of spiritual disciplines as a means of grace.

Doctrinally, the branches of Methodism following Wesley are Arminian, emphasizing the free will of man. Those following the influence of Whitefield are Reformed or Calvinistic, emphasizing the doctrines of grace.


Yet, what happened? Wesley outlived Whitefield and John Wesley preached at George Whitefield's funeral. The following except from that sermon addresses the point made in the OP.

"How amiable a character is this! How desirable to every child of God! But why is it then so rarely found? How is it that there are so few instances of it? Indeed, supposing we have tasted of the love of God, how can any of us rest till it is our own? Why, there is a delicate device, whereby Satan persuades thousands that they may stop short of it and yet be guiltless. It is well if many here present are not in this "snare of the devil, taken captive at his will." "O yes," says one, "I have all this love for those I believe to be children of God; but I will never believe he is a child of God, who belongs to that vile congregation! Can he, do you think, be a child of God, who holds such detestable opinions? or he that joins in such senseless and superstitious, if not idolatrous, worship?" So we may justify ourselves in one sin by adding a second to it! We excuse the want of love in ourselves by laying the blame on others! To color our own devilish temper, we pronounce our brethren children of the devil! O beware of this! -- and if you are already taken in the snare, escape out of it as soon as possible! Go and learn that truly catholic love which "is not rash," or hasty in judging; that love which "thinks no evil;" which "believes and hopes all things;" which makes all the allowances for others that we desire others should make for us! Then we shall take knowledge of the grace of God which is in every man, whatever be his opinion or mode of worship: then will all that fear God be near and dear unto us "in the bowels of Jesus Christ."

Was not this the spirit of our dear friend? And why should it not be ours? O Thou God of love, how long shall Thy people be a by-word among the Heathen? How long shall they laugh us to scorn, and say, "See how these Christians love one another!" When wilt Thou roll away our reproach? Shall the sword devour for ever? How long will it be ere Thou bid Thy people return from "following each other?" Now, at least, "let all the people stand still, and pursue after their brethren no more!" But what ever others do, let all of us, my brethren, hear the voice of him that, being dead, yet speaks! Suppose ye hear him say, "Now, at least, be ye followers of me as I was of Christ! Let brother "no more lift up sword against brother, neither know ye war any more!" Rather put ye on, as the elect of God, bowels of mercies, humbleness of mild, brotherly kindness, gentleness, long- suffering, forbearing one another in love. Let the time past suffice for strife, envy, contention; for biting and devouring one another. Blessed be God, that ye have not long ago been consumed one of another! From henceforth hold ye the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."

O God, with Thee no word is impossible! Thou does whatsoever please Thee! O that Thou would cause the mantle of Thy prophet, whom Thou hast taken up, now to fall upon us that remain! "Where is the Lord God of Elijah?" Let his spirit rest upon these Thy servants! Show Thou art the God that answers by fire! Let the fire of Thy love fall on every heart! And because we love Thee, let us love one another with a "love stronger than death!" Take away from us "all anger, and wrath, and bitterness; all clamor and evil speaking!" Let Thy Spirit so rest upon us, that from this hour we may be "kind to each other, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even as God, for Christ's sake hath forgiven us!"





Both men were ordained Anglican clergy and believed they were not founding a new denomination, but, rather, a movement within their Anglican church. They held fast to different doctrines on some theological issues, but they remained friends from beginning to end...friends who disagreed, but friends none the less, and Methodists.

I thought you said you were a Methodist clergy at one time. You should know these things.

Good stuff!

Thanks

 

[reba]

Note from your moderator..... Please stay on topic . Arminianism, v. Calvinism is not the topic

 

[JLB]

Note from your moderator..... Please stay on topic . Arminianism, v. Calvinism is not the topic

Oh, my bad. Sorry.

The topic must be George Whitefield and John Wesley, and their perspective disagreements over the doctrine of... ?

 

[reba]

The topic must be George Whitefield and John Wesley, and their perspective disagreements over the doctrine of... ?

Yes, so let keep it close, and not over board. This is one of 'those' topics that can easily go to wild fire... Moderator

 

[Mike S]

Oh, my bad. Sorry.

The topic must be George Whitefield and John Wesley, and their perspective disagreements over the doctrine of... ?

Thanks for your interest and your comments.

The point I was trying to emphasize with the original post is that we are called by God to love
and support each other as Christian, even though we may adhere to very different
theological doctrines. It's easy enough to find reasons to say "He's not a
REAL Christian, because he believes...." It's a difference I see locally in
differences of belief on the sacraments of baptism and communion. As Methodists we
believe that baptism is of the Holy Spirit which can be performed by sprinkling,
not requiring full immersion, and that Communion is open to all who want to come
to Christ regardless of membership. There are churches that consider that
non-scriptural and heretical, and will not associate with us.

George Whitefield and John Wesley - both powerful Methodist
preachers - had very different understandings on certain points of theology,
sometimes leading to heated exchanges between the two. Yet each, as shown in
the excerpts from both Whitefield's sermon in the OP and Wesley's sermon given
at Whitefield's funeral, calls us to not condemn and demonize each other over our
differences, but to love each other as Christians. "Let Thy Spirit so rest upon us, that from this
hour we may be "kind to each other, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even
as God, for Christ's sake hath forgiven us!"

 

[reba]

AMEN

 

[JLB]

Thanks for your interest and your comments.

The point I was trying to emphasize with the original post is that we are called by God to love
and support each other as Christian, even though we may adhere to very different
theological doctrines. It's easy enough to find reasons to say "He's not a
REAL Christian, because he believes...." It's a difference I see locally in
differences of belief on the sacraments of baptism and communion. As Methodists we
believe that baptism is of the Holy Spirit which can be performed by sprinkling,
not requiring full immersion, and that Communion is open to all who want to come
to Christ regardless of membership. There are churches that consider that
non-scriptural and heretical, and will not associate with us.

George Whitefield and John Wesley - both powerful Methodist
preachers - had very different understandings on certain points of theology,
sometimes leading to heated exchanges between the two. Yet each, as shown in
the excerpts from both Whitefield's sermon in the OP and Wesley's sermon given
at Whitefield's funeral, calls us to not condemn and demonize each other over our
differences, but to love each other as Christians. "Let Thy Spirit so rest upon us, that from this
hour we may be "kind to each other, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, even
as God, for Christ's sake hath forgiven us!"

Yes, that is beautiful.

It is wonderful that we can learn these valuable lessons from the great men and women that God has given us to learn from.


I also agree that we can love those, and pray for those who have extreme views that are considered to be "heretical", even though we have been "advised" to separate ourselves from those who would teach us contrary to the scriptures..

as Paul said -

1 Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed. 2 And those who have believing masters, let them not despise them because they are brethren, but rather serve them because those who are benefited are believers and beloved. Teach and exhort these things. 3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. 6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 1 Timothy 6:1-6

and again -

1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 2 Timothy 3:1-5

Paul said it this way, A little leaven, leavens the whole lump.

I think what I have learned from you in this thread about George Whitefield and John Wesley, they knew each other and what manner of life each other lived toward God.

This caused each other to respect and love each other, regardless of their doctrinal differences.

Count Zinzendorf of the Moravian Community, whom the Wesley's learned from, walked in this same mind. He was also a great man.

He learned much of what He lived from a very little known woman by the name of Jeanne Guyon.

She died in a Catholic Prison, loving her Saviour.


JLB

 

[Mike S]

Yes, that is beautiful.

It is wonderful that we can learn these valuable lessons from the great men and women that God has given us to learn from.


I also agree that we can love those, and pray for those who have extreme views that are considered to be "heretical", even though we have been "advised" to separate ourselves from those who would teach us contrary to the scriptures..

as Paul said -

1 Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed. 2 And those who have believing masters, let them not despise them because they are brethren, but rather serve them because those who are benefited are believers and beloved. Teach and exhort these things. 3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. 6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 1 Timothy 6:1-6

and again -

1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 2 Timothy 3:1-5

Paul said it this way, A little leaven, leavens the whole lump.

I think what I have learned from you in this thread about George Whitefield and John Wesley, they knew each other and what manner of life each other lived toward God.

This caused each other to respect and love each other, regardless of their doctrinal differences.

Count Zinzendorf of the Moravian Community, whom the Wesley's learned from, walked in this same mind. He was also a great man.

He learned much of what He lived from a very little known woman by the name of Jeanne Guyon.

She died in a Catholic Prison, loving her Saviour.


JLB

Thank you for mentioning that. The Moravians had a tremendous influence on John Wesley. Their contribution to Methodism through Wesley cannot be emphasized enough.

 

[By Grace]

By Grace said: ↑

When Wesley was on his deathbed, his close associates asked him who he would like to preach his funeral sermon. Swiftly came the answer: "Mr. Whitfield".

I researched that, and found that Whitfield predeceased Wesley, and I wanted to do more research, then post a mea culpa. I wanted to know the source of that information I had. The only possible explanation I have (and I admit I am grasping at straws) is that ..... never mind. It is not worth it.

 

[Mike S]

I researched that, and found that Whitfield predeceased Wesley, and I wanted to do more research, then post a mea culpa. I wanted to know the source of that information I had. The only possible explanation I have (and I admit I am grasping at straws) is that ..... never mind. It is not worth it.

It's OK, By Grace, no mea culpa necessary. We all make mistakes, but we're all brothers in Christ.

 

[JLB]

Thank you for mentioning that. The Moravians had a tremendous influence on John Wesley. Their contribution to Methodism through Wesley cannot be emphasized enough.

Have you heard of the woman I mentioned, that had a great influence on Zinzendorf, the owner of the land on which the Moravian community lived?


JLB

 

[Mike S]

Have you heard of the woman I mentioned, that had a great influence on Zinzendorf, the owner of the land on which the Moravian community lived?


JLB

I haven't, but I'll do some research. I't amazing and wonderful, I think, all the various influences our earlier brothers and sisters had on each other.

 

[By Grace]

I haven't, but I'll do some research. I't amazing and wonderful, I think, all the various influences our earlier brothers and sisters had on each other.

The best resource for that is Wesley's Journal. I do not remember what volume it is, but I found ir compelling reading.

 

[Mike S]

The best resource for that is Wesley's Journal. I do not remember what volume it is, but I found ir compelling reading.

Thank you. I'll check it out.