Heating Season Is Here...Some Advice From A Heating Man

[Edward]

I know very little about LP or Nat. gas but I do know that oil furnaces get built up with soot and the heat exchangers can build up with dust, rust flakes, etc. Mine has a SS heat exchanger so I notice less of the build-up of the metal flakes. I just wish they'd design the forced-air furnaces so it was easier to get in there with a vacuum for cleaning.

I remember our old furnace when we first moved here the heat exchanger was about half full of metal flakes and dust. It was a wonder it could keep up heating the house. Took a lot of hard work and time to clean it out so the furnace could actually heat the air as it blew through.

You bring up a good subject here that I would like to comment on. Most people have little to no knowledge of natural gas and LP gas. So most people do not want to touch their furnace. They are terrified of gas. I have heard this hundreds if noit thousands of times...I can do some electrical stuff, but I wont touch gas, I dont want to blow something up...

We have all seen it on the news, where a house blew up from a gas leak. The helicopter cam shows a pile of rubble where a house used to be...but truth be known, there are very very few true gas accidents. You cannot smell natural gas as it is taken from the ground. They add stuff to the gas so it is easy to smell. Generally speaking, it takes massive amounts of gas to cause an explosion. I say generally speaking because if it is a confined space (a small room), then it takes less gas for an explosion. The truth is that most houses that blow up are not due to accidents. They are due to negligence and not having even the slightest caution about it. They don't say the guy was being stupid on the news because it would be adding insult to injury...but it is the case. To have enough gas to create the proper mixture for an explosion...it would be impossible to not be able to smell it. and they go ahead and light the match anyway. Or they let a known leak go out of being too cheap to have it fixed. until it gets bad enough that the water heater heater pilot sets it off or whatever.

I routinely find minor gas leaks in peoples homes. They almost always get scared and ask if it will explode or should they go to a hotel. The type of gas sniffer that I use is electronic and very very sensitive. It finds even the tiniest leak.
Do you ever smell gas when you come downstairs mamn? No. Well then it is not going to explode or cause a fire. When you can smell it, it's time to do something about it. SO it wont blow up your house, but it is costing you money by leaking...So they make an appointment for us to fix it.

But there's no reason to be scared of your furnace. It is so safe that you just don't realize it. People fear what they do not understand. Homeowners could do so much more for their own gas appliances if they only tried. A significant amount of the calls that I do each year, could have been averted or done by the homeowner themselves. Tuning up a furnace for safety and maximum efficiency is a lot easier than tuning up a car. It just takes a modicum of common sense and caution and a little bit of becoming familiar with the appliance itself. The more familiar that you are with it, the more you can do to it yourself, and the more money you will save. Plus, every homeowner cares more about their own stuff than some young tech from a company so would do a better job naturally than the tech would or does.

I'll make a post on how to tune up your own furnace, and how to approach the unit when it is not working. Things to check and do beyond the classic check the breaker and stuff like they say. How to get it going when it's 10 degrees outside and you have no heat, and they can't get to you until tomorrow.

These new high efficiency units are all very similar in operation regardless of brand. and actually simpler to diagnose than one might think. It's really all about sequence of operation. What happens in what order.

 

[Edward]

Now I am not a refrigerator repairman, but a month or so back, my freezer stopped keeping the ice cream frozen solid. I took it's temperature and the freezer was 24 degrees! I know the refrigerator guys are expensive and I do know how to test stuff with a multi meter so I decided to try and fix my own refrigerator. So I googled the top three things that happen when a refrigerator breaks down...and got a lot of hits. Those three things are, the defrost thermostat, the defrost timer, and dirty condenser coils. My condenser coils were clean so I tested the defrost timer and T-Stat. It had a bad defrost timer. 12 dollars at the supply house and it fixed my refrigerator. Instead of, 2 or 3 hundred from a shop. Yay!

That said, I will tell you the top three things that happen to newer high efficiency furnaces when they break down.
1. The flame sensor.
The flame sensor happens a lot and is easy to repair yourself. First, you will wake up cold and realize there is a problem. Go to the furnace and remove the top cover door which will open up the burner and control area. Set the furnace to call for heat and watch it try to ignite. The vent motor will come on first, then the igniter will begin glowing and warm up, then a click and the gas control opens up and it will light...then the burners will go back out within 5 seconds. If it doesn't prove the flame within 5 seconds it will shut down the gas and make it go out. If this happens and it lights off but then goes back out quickly, you know what the problem is. The flame sensor. It will be on the opposite side from the ignitor which glowed orange and lit it. It will have one screw and one wire going to it. Sut off the power to the unit, remove the wire connector, then the screw and the sensor. Do NOT use sand paper or steel wool no matter what you've heard or read. Use a damp cloth and clean the metal sensor portion. It will have a residue on it from the gas flame burning on it and the residue is what blocks the signal. Handle the sensor gently like you would a spark plug. If you crack the ceramic, you will need a new one. Just gently clean it and reinstall it and reconnect the wire and restart the furnace.
You've just saved an overtime charge and I will get to stay in bed that Saturday night, lol. (they never go out on warm afternoons!)

2. The Ignitor.
The ignitor is a glow plug that lights the burners so the unit doesn't have to have a pilot which burns all the time. They go out real regularly. First you get cold, so go to the unit, remove the door, and set it to come on. The vent motor should come on first and after a pre cycle purge of 30 to 90 seconds (depending on the unit and model) the ignitor should begin to glow. If it does not, it could be bad. (Probably is), but having a multi meter to check that the ignitor is getting voltage to it will confirm it one way or the other. Most of them are 120 volts. unplug the connector to the ignitor and put your meter probes onto the wires coming from the bottom of the furnace to see if power is even trying to start the ignitor. 99 times out of 100 there will be power there and confirm the ignitor is bad. If there is no power when you restart the furnace so it will try to start...then the main control board or module is bad.
The ignitors are easy to change. One or two screws and one molex plug.
Hint: you can order ignitors off the internet for way cheaper than I can bring one to you for. It pays to have an ectra on hand just for this possibility.
These ignitors are very fragile and break easily. Not only that, but be sure to not touch the element with your fingers. The oil from your fingers will kill the ignitor in about two weeks after you touch it. Take your time. You must have the exact ignitor that you need. They mount a certain way and come in many different form and shapes to mount. Be sure what you order. Generally you will need the model and serial number of the furnace to make sure. Sometimes they will have a part number stamped on the connector, but not always.

3. The unit goes off on high temperature limit.
This problem usually happens when people do not change the filter and it gets plugged. Then the furnace will not move as much air through it and it will run hotter. Up to a ertain temperature then shut down and go into lockout. You can always tell when it is off on limit because the indoor fan will come on and not shut off.
I'm not going into detail about how to fix it because there are other considerations involved that is probably outside the scope and skills of a typical homeowner.

But that's it, the top 3 problems with the newer furnaces.

 

[WIP]

You bring up a good subject here that I would like to comment on. Most people have little to no knowledge of natural gas and LP gas. So most people do not want to touch their furnace. They are terrified of gas. I have heard this hundreds if noit thousands of times...I can do some electrical stuff, but I wont touch gas, I dont want to blow something up...

We have all seen it on the news, where a house blew up from a gas leak. The helicopter cam shows a pile of rubble where a house used to be...but truth be known, there are very very few true gas accidents. You cannot smell natural gas as it is taken from the ground. They add stuff to the gas so it is easy to smell. Generally speaking, it takes massive amounts of gas to cause an explosion. I say generally speaking because if it is a confined space (a small room), then it takes less gas for an explosion. The truth is that most houses that blow up are not due to accidents. They are due to negligence and not having even the slightest caution about it. They don't say the guy was being stupid on the news because it would be adding insult to injury...but it is the case. To have enough gas to create the proper mixture for an explosion...it would be impossible to not be able to smell it. and they go ahead and light the match anyway. Or they let a known leak go out of being too cheap to have it fixed. until it gets bad enough that the water heater heater pilot sets it off or whatever.

I routinely find minor gas leaks in peoples homes. They almost always get scared and ask if it will explode or should they go to a hotel. The type of gas sniffer that I use is electronic and very very sensitive. It finds even the tiniest leak.
Do you ever smell gas when you come downstairs mamn? No. Well then it is not going to explode or cause a fire. When you can smell it, it's time to do something about it. SO it wont blow up your house, but it is costing you money by leaking...So they make an appointment for us to fix it.

But there's no reason to be scared of your furnace. It is so safe that you just don't realize it. People fear what they do not understand. Homeowners could do so much more for their own gas appliances if they only tried. A significant amount of the calls that I do each year, could have been averted or done by the homeowner themselves. Tuning up a furnace for safety and maximum efficiency is a lot easier than tuning up a car. It just takes a modicum of common sense and caution and a little bit of becoming familiar with the appliance itself. The more familiar that you are with it, the more you can do to it yourself, and the more money you will save. Plus, every homeowner cares more about their own stuff than some young tech from a company so would do a better job naturally than the tech would or does.

I'll make a post on how to tune up your own furnace, and how to approach the unit when it is not working. Things to check and do beyond the classic check the breaker and stuff like they say. How to get it going when it's 10 degrees outside and you have no heat, and they can't get to you until tomorrow.

These new high efficiency units are all very similar in operation regardless of brand. and actually simpler to diagnose than one might think. It's really all about sequence of operation. What happens in what order.

Speaking of smelling gas, we have an LP gas fireplace. I resisted putting it in because to me it is a very expensive home decoration but my wife wanted one and the one we got uses a pilot light so it doesn't require electricity to operate it. This was the only thing that sold me on the idea. I figure if we ever have a power outage during the winter we would at least still have a heat source.

One of the things I've noticed and have not been able to figure out is that when the gas supply tank starts getting low (<~20%), we start to smell the gas inside the home. Not very strong but it is noticeable especially when you first come in from outside. We do not smell it when the tank is full, only when it begins to get low.

The system is a fully enclosed system and gets its fresh combustion air supply from outside and of course discharges exhaust outside. I've mixed up soap solutions and applied it to the incoming line connections to verify they do not leak that I can tell.

The only explanation I can come up with is that the chemical odor that is put in the tank settles to the bottom over time and so it is at a higher concentration as the tank gets lower on liquid fuel. The pilot isn't able to burn off the chemical so it builds up inside the fireplace and leaks around the front door seal. Does this sound plausible?

 

[Razeontherock]

Winter?

But well it's a trade for red tide ,blue tide .

Is that like choosing the red pill or the blue pill? Lol

 

[jasonc]

Is that like choosing the red pill or the blue pill? Lol

No death of fish,blue,green algae ,nervous system attacks,red algae not as bad but can affect those with respiratory issues. Both are problems here.

 

[Razeontherock]

Many people state that new appliances aren't nearly as durable as old ones. Is this true?
My furnace is gas, Lennox, and ... old. (As are the rest of my appliances)

I've got to pay my gas bill today. $13

 

[WIP]

Many people state that new appliances aren't nearly as durable as old ones. Is this true?

In some ways, yes. If they were built using the same durability as in the past, the cost would be way too high. Here's what happened. Company A made the change to less durable quality to reduce its cost and the consumer responded with purchases. Company B could no longer compete and had to do likewise. Ergo, over time, durable quality is sacrificed for lower prices because that is what the consumer demanded.

 

[Michael74]

In some ways, yes. If they were built using the same durability as in the past, the cost would be way too high.

Its a form of hidden inflation. Average people can't afford to buy super quality anymore because bankers created hidden inflation. We need an honest dollar.

 

[Michael74]

Hint: you can order ignitors off the internet for way cheaper than I can bring one to you for. It pays to have an ectra on hand just for this possibility.

Which web site do you recommend buying a spare from?

 

[Edward]

Speaking of smelling gas, we have an LP gas fireplace. I resisted putting it in because to me it is a very expensive home decoration but my wife wanted one and the one we got uses a pilot light so it doesn't require electricity to operate it. This was the only thing that sold me on the idea. I figure if we ever have a power outage during the winter we would at least still have a heat source.

One of the things I've noticed and have not been able to figure out is that when the gas supply tank starts getting low (<~20%), we start to smell the gas inside the home. Not very strong but it is noticeable especially when you first come in from outside. We do not smell it when the tank is full, only when it begins to get low.

The system is a fully enclosed system and gets its fresh combustion air supply from outside and of course discharges exhaust outside. I've mixed up soap solutions and applied it to the incoming line connections to verify they do not leak that I can tell.

The only explanation I can come up with is that the chemical odor that is put in the tank settles to the bottom over time and so it is at a higher concentration as the tank gets lower on liquid fuel. The pilot isn't able to burn off the chemical so it builds up inside the fireplace and leaks around the front door seal. Does this sound plausible?

That is not plausible but way beyond plausible to probable, lol. You have figured it out Brother. The odor additive that they add to it is actually heavier than the LP gas itself and does settle to the bottom of the tank, so the concentration of it towards the bottom of the tank is more concentrated. It is also not actually flammable either or at least to the extent that the gas is. I'm not positive, but, I don't think that there's anything that you can do about it. You do not smell it when there is a full tank, you said, so there's no leaks if you can't. You are exactly right.

Do your leak checks with a full tank of gas. It doesn't sound like it, but I guess you could have a regulator problem, but I highly doubt it from what you have said. Still, you could easily check it if you have a manometer or a gas pressure gauge. LP should be about 10 or 11" W.C., and it either is or it isn't. In my experience, if a regulator has a problem, it will have the problem at all and any tank fullness from full to empty. If you don't have a manometer that reads in WC, but do in PSI, the conversion works out to about 5 or 6 ounces of pressure, per square inch.
(I wouldn't let the gas supplier guy see me check in psi, he'd prolly freak out, lol.)

It is nice to have the ol back up heat source. I have a nice wood burning fire place, but they bricked it over when they had gas appliances installed and vented them both into the masonry chimney. I'm getting real close to replacing my furnace with a 92% one so it can be horizontal vented out the side of the house, and I am going to relocate my HWH and run it a new B vent so I can free up my chimney again and have a wood burner backup! Yes!

I have thought about snaking some copper lines through the walls and putting in a few inside (LP) gas lights, or even natural and have a regulator and some extra orifices on hand to be able to convert them at will when it comes to it.

 

[jasonc]

Hard to believe that propane, lb ,cng can be used to refrigerate.

 

[Luminous_Rose]

Thank you for the advice! I appreciate it!